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Most atheists do not know what science says about our origins

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That was certainly the case in his Thomas Jefferson, Columbus, Viking and related rants. Beaten completely in both fact and logic, he keeps bouncing back - almost like somebody had sent him here to convert the heathen - and the heathen were way beyond his feeble abilities. Ah well.....:D

I still not wholly unconvinced that he's not pulling some sort of Andy Kaufmann-esque prank. Seeing how ludicrous he can sound without being totally marginalized.
 
Experience -- actually I believe it is much lower than 10%. I was being conservative.

I'm not saying this in a condescending way -- its just that I believe it. What percentage of atheists do you estimate (from your experience) know that all of the millions of plant and animal species descended from the same single organism.


If I may chime in here, ...

I would say that about 0% of all atheists believe that all life on Earth is descended from the same single organism.

In fact, this is the first time I have ever heard of such a thing!
 
There's a weird phenomenon going on here.

If a creationist says something, it is assumed to be wrong, and people jump all over what is said and the person who said it, without really putting any thought into the objections. This is especially true if it appears that the creationist is saying it in order to support creationism.

DOC's assertion that we are all descended from a single organism is not correct, but it's darned close. In fact, I can only think of a couple of things wrong with his assertion. First, it's hard to talk about "descent" with organisms that reproduce via fission. Which one descended from the other? Even more confusing are organisms that combine into other organisms. I'm thinking of mitochondria, which, as articulett pointed out, are believed to once have existed as independent organisms that were assimilated into a host, and are now part of almost every living thing. Does that make us "descended" from the organism that became mitochondria? The question is meaningless. The word "descent" just doesn't apply.

Second, there's the question of whether a hypothetical common ancestor was an organism, or a proto-organism. Did the diversity of life begin before cells in anything like the form we know them appeared? Dawkins in "The God Delusion" mentioned the possibility that the origin of DNA was indeed highly improbable, but since it only had to happen once, the actual occurrence of life is not highly improbable. He is saying it is possible that not only is all life descended from a single organism. Dawkins is saying it is possible that all life is descended from a single molecule. I didn't see anyone talking about how ridiculous that claim is. (Just to make sure everyone understands, you shouldn't be saying it's ridiculous. It isn't ridiculous. It's mainstream science.)

So, DOC has said that, according to science, we are all descended from a single organism. Yep. A bacterium. A cyanobacterium is the favored candidate. Blue green algae. Pond scum. He's also saying that, according to science, I am a distant cousin to my houseplants. That's true, too. Why are people disagreeing with him?

There is no concensus on whether or not there was ever one specific cell to which we can trace all of our descent, but I don't think that's an important part of DOC's assertion. Even if it is, though, so what? While it isn't provable, it's a perfectly servicable hypothesis, and wouldn't lead you astray if you accepted it. As I noted, Dawkins has speculated that we might be descended from a single molecule, and the general opinion is that he's not a crackpot, at least when he's talking biology.

I think what DOC is getting at is that he finds it improbable that the incredible diversity of life began with common ancestry that was as simple as a bacterium. Well, science disagrees, DOC. Next time you go fishing, say hello to my cousins for me. You'll be putting one on the hook, and another will be eating it. Oh, and there's the dill weed and lemon juice you'll sprinkie in the pan. Don't forget those. It'll be like a big family reunion.


One more thing to DOC. You said that in your experience, most atheists don't realize that's what science claims. You're wrong there. Most of them do realize that. Your experience is skewed because most of the atheists you encounter feel compelled to disagree with you because you're a creationist. They disagree with you on principle, regardless of what you actually say.
 
Experiment: Go to google. Enter "abiogenesis" and "only had to happen once".

191 hits. Not much, but it's very specific phrasing. You can read the discussions, because many are in forums. If it did only happen once, and a lot of people seem to think it did, then DOC's assertion is correct.

Surely everyone who discusses evolution here has heard that argument, that abiogenesis was a unique event in the history of our planet. If so, then you cannot claim that you have never heard of DOC's assertion.
 
DOC isn't saying all came from a single organism (implying a class of things.)

He's saying 1 single solitary entity. This is a drastically different claim and one that I think is horribly unsupported by any evidence.
 
Dawkins in "The God Delusion" mentioned the possibility that the origin of DNA was indeed highly improbable, but since it only had to happen once, the actual occurrence of life is not highly improbable. He is saying it is possible that not only is all life descended from a single organism. Dawkins is saying it is possible that all life is descended from a single molecule. I didn't see anyone talking about how ridiculous that claim is. (Just to make sure everyone understands, you shouldn't be saying it's ridiculous. It isn't ridiculous. It's mainstream science.)

You bring up a lot of good points, but there's a big difference between saying that something is possible and asserting that the entire scientific community states the idea is fact. The latter is exactly what's going on here.

The problem comes when other ideas are brought to the table and DOC plugs his ears and yells "SCIENCE SAYS SO!" It's not exactly an effective way to have a discussion, especially about something that's largely speculative.

Sure, it's entirely possible that life originated from a single organism. I don't think there's a single post here that says "that is impossible" but rather the assertion that this community is scientifically ignorant is inflammatory not to mention the inaccuracy of claiming that "science says" all life came from a single organism (Chad). I don't recall reading any definitive research to determine if the first life forms all sprang from one or developed in tandem.
 
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DOC isn't saying all came from a single organism (implying a class of things.)

He's saying 1 single solitary entity. This is a drastically different claim and one that I think is horribly unsupported by any evidence.

Amen!

I have never heard of anyone, creationist or otherwise, claim that exactly one, single, living thing gave rise to every other living thing here on Earth.
 
There's a weird phenomenon going on here.

If a creationist says something, it is assumed to be wrong, and people jump all over what is said and the person who said it, without really putting any thought into the objections. This is especially true if it appears that the creationist is saying it in order to support creationism.

You are probably right, and I won't say that I am never biased towards Creationists.

But the question here is not only about what DOC asserted in this particular OP. We can have a discussion about what he says about science and what might be right or wrong according to Science or according to whatever it is that DOC believes in (and to some extent people are doing that here). But an honest discussion is not what DOC is after, and that becomes pretty clear when you look at how he replies to things, and not what he may say about this particular subject. It becomes clear when you read his others threads as well.

What's the point in us discussing this honestly when he doesn't? His intents with these threads are not honest from the start. He doesn't really want to know what Science actually says (if he happens to be right about what science says, what does it matter? It doesn't matter one bit for his intents). His intents are not to have a discussion about this and to maybe learn more about it. His intent is to ask "trick questions" that will lure athesists into painting themselves into corners and thus make a case for his true opinion (in this case: "if atheists really knew what absurd things science says they would think worse of it and turn more to religion instead"). He thinks that if he can pull something out of context that he think sounds absurd, and can make us agree that it is absurd, then we will also agree that religion is a better thing to turn to when finding a basis for how we want to look at life. See?

Like his thread about that you can't be an atheist and become the president of the USA. If we agree to that atheism would mean you would get no votes, then he thinks we will also agree that it is wrong to be an atheist, and that the fact that most people won't vote for an atheist is some sort of proof that religion is right and god exists and so on...

It's a tactic he runs with. "Tricky" questions that we (hopefully) can't really disagree with, and then trying to make us agree with his reasons, opinions and beliefs based on said "tricky" question.

Thing is, his tricky questions are not so tricky, they are very transparent and silly, and often factually wrong. Even when they are not factually wrong, they are meant to trick us, not asked in honesty. He also constantly fails in making people here fall in his "oh so clever" traps. He constantly fails in making people draw the conclusions that he wants us to draw. Still, he keeps at it. It just makes him dishonest. Stubborn, stupid and dishonest.

Maybe we are biased against Creationists, but in this case I think people are just seeing through this guy, and that is why they are not respecting him.
 
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What's the point in us discussing this honestly when he doesn't?
Well, I think that is exactly right. I'm willing to discuss his points with him. I even tried in this thread.

I think what you are seeing, Meadmaker, is not people on this board having problems with creationists, but rather people on this board having problems with this creationist. And rightly so, IMHO.

If I can sum up his debating style, I would not even call it an argument from authority. I would call it an argument from an inappropriate authority that agrees (or can be construed to, in this case) with him.
 
Ignoring the fact that there's no conclusive data as to the specifics of the absolute first "organism," even with that adjusted we still have the assertion that "most atheists" are unaware of this idea which is completely bogus because who has never heard comments regarding the first life crawling out of a pool of primordial soup? I much prefer a bowl of Campbell's soup... This thread is a sham.
 
Well, I haven't been in this thread for awhile and I haven't read most of the posts since my last one. Really don't have the time or the energy and I like to skip around to different threads at my leisure, as I'm sure most of you do.

Yes, I realize that now some people will say something derogatory about me because of my statement above. If that's how you choose to spend your time -- so be it I guess.


Anyway, what I was interested in was the fact that (according to science) humans not only evolved from bacteria but at a later stage in the process we evolved from fish and then from reptiles.

Go to Part 2 under the heading Organisms in the following website:

http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/f...aboratory/History of Life/History of Life.htm
 
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Yes, DOC, all species are related. You finally figured out that evolution does not just show that we're related to apes, but also to pond scum?

We already knew that. Interesting that you assume everyone else is as ignorant as you were.
 
Yes, DOC, all species are related. You finally figured out that evolution does not just show that we're related to apes, but also to pond scum?

We already knew that.


Some of you knew that, but it seems the average Joe on the street (as well as magazine and book covers) just go back to the apes when talking about evolution.
 
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Some of you knew that, but it seems the average Joe on the street (as well as magazine and book covers) just go back to the apes when talking about evolution.

I'd wager that most members of this board are aware of the interrelatedness of all life. It's central to the theory of evolution. And we don't "go back to the apes", we are apes. We didn't evolve from chimps, we share a common ancestor with chimps. We also share a common ancestor with reptiles, fish and bacteria. This is common knowledge to anyone with even a basic understanding of the theory of evolution by natural selection.

So, on what evidence do you base your claim that most atheists do not know what science has to say about our origins?
 
Some of you knew that, but it seems the average Joe on the street (as well as magazine and book covers) just go back to the apes when talking about evolution.


If there's any truth to your perception, it's probably due in no small part to people getting their science from places like Answers in Genesis.
 
Some of you knew that, but it seems the average Joe on the street (as well as magazine and book covers) just go back to the apes when talking about evolution.

Because that's the one people talk about most. The ties between apes and humans is an active area of interest for scientists and is fueled in other areas by the ever-so-popular "I ain't no monkey" chant from the creationist camp. I'm also gonna go out on a limb and say there's probably more that can be learned about humans by studying closer relatives than speculating about Chad.
 
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