Cheif Palmer's Report Further Debunked

[NYCEMT86]

Part of my paper, figured you guys might like this.


"Chief Palmer reports on the 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones, we've got isolated pockets of fire, we're gonna need at least two hand lines up there"


As most you know that the bulk of the fire was above the 78th floor and I won't get into much detail about that, Rather I am going to get into the stand pipe operations and why only two hand lines would have been needed to knock down the fire the 78th floor.


Most conspiracy theorists think two lines sounds like a small amount and therefore the fire was small right? Well not necessarily, two 2 1/2 inch hoses with 1 1/8th inch smooth bore nozzles can deliver more water at greater pressure than compared to the 1 1/2 inch unlined hoses that would have been stored on site, which anybody in the fire services knows, is usually crap since they don't meet the same requirements as hoses used by the fire department. As basic SOP during a high rise, they would have opened the gravity tanks located above them and turned on the fire pumps (which most likely would have been automatic) in addition to hooking two engines into an exterior outlet to add more pressure in the pipe, 650 psi to be exact. The nozzle pressure would have been reduced to 80-70 psi either by a PRD (Pressure Regulating Device) or at the stand pipe valve. Also the second line would have been hooked up at least two floors below the first line as not to interfere with residual pressure. So what does this all mean? Well if the stand pipe systems were still intact and operational they would have been able to deliver over 338 GPM (Gallons per minute)

GPM = (29.7)(d)^2(NP)

GPM = Gallons Per Minute
29.7 = Constant
d = Diameter in inches
NP = Nozzle Pressure

(29.7)(1.125)^2(80)(Use 81 for Square Root Purposes)
(29.7)(1.265)(9)
(37.5705, Rounded down to 37.57)(9)

GPM = 338


and at a weight of 8.33 pounds per gallon you are talking about over a ton of water with just one line alone. Now if you double that you are looking at over 2.5 tons of water.


Please if you have anything to add or correct go ahead

 

[Gravy]

Interesting stuff. Thanks.

 

[Bell]

Can I asume that -in hindsight- fighting those fires is purely hypothetical? Surely there was no longer access to water way up there?

 

[BenBurch]

Can I asume that -in hindsight- fighting those fires is purely hypothetical? Surely there was no longer access to water way up there?

No. They were contemplating running roll-ups all the way up the stairwell. Seriously.

 

[CurtC]

Would they have pumps powerful enough to pump water up 800 feet? Or would they have had to put "repeater" pumps at various intervals as they went up?

800 feet of water is a lot of pressure - what's it, like 40 atmospheres, which I think would be 560 pounds of pressure per square inch. Could a fire hose handle that?

 

[JimBenArm]

Would they have pumps powerful enough to pump water up 800 feet? Or would they have had to put "repeater" pumps at various intervals as they went up?

800 feet of water is a lot of pressure - what's it, like 40 atmospheres, which I think would be 560 pounds of pressure per square inch. Could a fire hose handle that?

43 psi per 100 feet is the pressure conversion we used in subs. So that would be 347 psi.
Don't know what kind of pressure a fire hose could handle, but that seems like a lot for one. But that's just a "feeling" and has no basis in reality, so could be wrong.
As for the pumping question, there are pumps in existance that can pump against that kind of head, but don't know if that's what they used, or if there was a booster pump arrangement.

 

[BenBurch]

I believe they planned to carry pumps up the stairwell as well.

 

[BenBurch]

See here; Backpack pumps; http://www.maesco.com/products/hale/hale.html

 

[jaydeehess]

In forest fire fighting one often has lines strung out along the earth and up hills. The pumps used are not as powerful as those used by municipal fire depts though. The trick used in forest fires is to have a plastic lined tub part way up the hill that is filled by the first pump and line and which then has another pump taking water out of it and sending it up higher. Forest fire lines are smaller than municipal dept lines and are unlined so as to allow them to 'sweat'. This keeps the outside of the line wet and resistant to any hot area it may get dragged accross.

However at an elevation of 800 feet I would think that in a forest situtaion, they'd call in water bombers.

 

[Hamradioguy]

Hand lines generally are either 1 3/4 inch or 2 1/2 inch, although big city departments in particular generally use 2 1/2 lines for anything but really small fires. (Those lines need a LOT of available water and manpower to handle.) I don't know what FDNY uses for nozzles. The flow for a straight tip is about right. Fog nozzles generally flow 250 GPM for a 2 1/2 inch line. Either way that's a LOT of water (Brunacini's rule: "Little fire, little water. Big fire, big water." )

Fire hoses used to be rated for 400 psi but I believe all hoses these days are 600 psi rated-or more. That's a lot of pressure for the average fire engine to produce even with a good hydrant and first rate pump. My experience is with rural firefighting and engine pressures generally aren't more than 200-250 psi. at the pump.

Thanks to gravity you need a half pound of pressure to lift water one foot. 800 feet= 400 psi. That's just to get water there. 100psi for a fog nozzle? Add that. Oh and friction loss in the hose has to be overcome too- it varies depending on how much water you want to flow. It's why high rise buildings have there own system of fire pumps and gravity tanks. When that system is compromised you don't easily get water to upper floors. Pumping from a fire truck at street level is not a practical option (Other than charging the buildings internal standpipe system...IF it's functioning.

Bottom line: If Chief Palmer called for two hand lines he wasn't thinking just wastebasket fire. Two lines equals a LOT of fire. And remember, this was below the floors where there was major fire involvement.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Wouldn't the standpipes in the stairwell have been wiped out above that point?

Could they just have pumped the water into the standpipe for use as high as the pipes were intact?

 

[NYCEMT86]

Hand lines generally are either 1 3/4 inch or 2 1/2 inch, although big city departments in particular generally use 2 1/2 lines for anything but really small fires. (Those lines need a LOT of available water and manpower to handle.) I don't know what FDNY uses for nozzles. The flow for a straight tip is about right. Fog nozzles generally flow 250 GPM for a 2 1/2 inch line. Either way that's a LOT of water (Brunacini's rule: "Little fire, little water. Big fire, big water." )

The FDNY uses 1 1/8th smooth bore tips either with or without a pistol grip and an on/off handle. Also they use strictly 2 1/2 or 3 inch lines for both supply and attack, if you ever look at the back of their hose bed they don't have any preconnects or cross lays.

Fire hoses used to be rated for 400 psi but I believe all hoses these days are 600 psi rated-or more. That's a lot of pressure for the average fire engine to produce even with a good hydrant and first rate pump. My experience is with rural firefighting and engine pressures generally aren't more than 200-250 psi. at the pump.

I am not sure what they are rated for now. Now thats 200-250 going into an attached attack line correct? Depending on the type of pump you can get the pressure up there without any problems, most pump panels are computerized but I am not sure if they were during 9/11 even though they could have been available.

Thanks to gravity you need a half pound of pressure to lift water one foot. 800 feet= 400 psi. That's just to get water there. 100psi for a fog nozzle? Add that. Oh and friction loss in the hose has to be overcome too- it varies depending on how much water you want to flow. It's why high rise buildings have there own system of fire pumps and gravity tanks. When that system is compromised you don't easily get water to upper floors. Pumping from a fire truck at street level is not a practical option (Other than charging the buildings internal standpipe system...IF it's functioning.

As we all saw at the Deutsche Bank fire when the system is compromised its results in death. They usually do dual operations depending on the gpm of the truck, two 1500 gpm engines or a single 2000 gpm engine, but I am sure if they had to do it, they could pump up to the top.

Bottom line: If Chief Palmer called for two hand lines he wasn't thinking just wastebasket fire. Two lines equals a LOT of fire. And remember, this was below the floors where there was major fire involvement.

That is exactly what I was getting at. I couldn't have said it better.

 

[BenBurch]

Wouldn't the standpipes in the stairwell have been wiped out above that point?

Could they just have pumped the water into the standpipe for use as high as the pipes were intact?

I recall reading, but cannot source where, that the standpipe system was shot from the impact. I'll see if I can find that.

 

[NYCEMT86]

Wouldn't the standpipes in the stairwell have been wiped out above that point?

Yes

Could they just have pumped the water into the standpipe for use as high as the pipes were intact?

Well thats a tough call, IIRC, The stand pipes in the WTC were separated into 3 zones so it is possible that they would have had a working system somewhere in the building, most likely could have been on the 76th floor where the supply tank is or below, where the system could be pressurized without losing water or pressure. It is possible to still use a system that is severed, but its going to be harder to maintain a pressure.

 

[NYCEMT86]

Would they have pumps powerful enough to pump water up 800 feet? Or would they have had to put "repeater" pumps at various intervals as they went up?

Each stand pipe zone had their own fire pump to deliver pressure along the way. An outside truck or trucks hooked into the stand pipe on street level would have been used to add more pressure.

800 feet of water is a lot of pressure - what's it, like 40 atmospheres, which I think would be 560 pounds of pressure per square inch. Could a fire hose handle that?

They would have reduced the pressure either by a pressure reducing device or at the on/off wheel at the stand pipe so they could maneuver the hose. 560 psi is way too much and it would just be useless to pump that much water out if you can't even move it.

 

[Bell]

No. They were contemplating running roll-ups all the way up the stairwell. Seriously.

Un-be-liev-a-ble!

It all seems so futile now

 

[NYCEMT86]

Can I asume that -in hindsight- fighting those fires is purely hypothetical? Surely there was no longer access to water way up there?

Yes it is purely hypothetical, but by following their SOPs this is exactly what would have happened if they were able to fight the fire and had a working water supply.

 

[leftysergeant]

As I recall, that floor was described as a "sky lobby," suggesting that, since it was not office space, the load of class A fuels would be less than on the floors above. Thus, whatever the extent of the fires there, it would not serve as evidence that the majority of the fires had burnt out on the higher floors as well.

As for the ability of the hoses to withstand the pressures required without some sort of booster pumps, we also have to take into consideration friction loss, the reduction of pressure due to turbulence in the hoses. This requires a great increase in pressure just to maintian pressure over that distance. Add to this the resistance of gravity, and we are talking about tremendous pressures at the pump and the first few lengths of hose.

 

[DGM]

The FDNY uses 1 1/8th smooth bore tips either with or without a pistol grip and an on/off handle. Also they use strictly 2 1/2 or 3 inch lines for both supply and attack, if you ever look at the back of their hose bed they don't have any preconnects or cross lays.

I love learning about all this stuff! Would you mind a little clarification on this (bold)? Thanks in advance.

 

[NYCEMT86]

Pre-Connect and Cross lays are same thing, the only difference a Pre-connect is usually a quick attack line that is stored in the hose bed along with the supply line and addition lines. Cross lays go across, usually above or next to the pump panel, as they are closer to the cab they are usually grabbed first. One line will go out of the left side of the truck while the other line goes out the right side. They are usually 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch lines with a nozzle already connected. For the pre connects they can be 1 1/2 up to 3 inch attack lines with a nozzle already attached. Before Cross lays they use to what is called booster lines which acts as the same thing as a cross lay but it was like 1 inch line a reel, it looked like your typical garden hose.


To better show you what I am talking about...here are some pictures


Cross lay


Pre connect



ETA:

The FDNY engines also have a pre-connect in the front bumper, which is used as a supply line that hooks directly into a hydrant, they also have shorter hose beds compared to the standard hose beds used around the United States. I think ever second or third row is a length of 50 or 100 foot line which will represent 1 floor...so if they arrive at a 6 story tenement building with fire on the top floor they will know off the bat to grab 6 lengths worth rather than guessing.