Why Can't They Figure it Out?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh gawd, I guess that makes me a racist too. The bell curve's been vindicated in the academic literature. The results in it are well replicated (not too much in the bell curve was even new, in terms of data). Obviously, the claim that race differences are genetic is controversial, but the bell curve will stand the test of time as a scientific contribution.

It's amazing too that all these racists get their racist ideas published in the best journals.

The naive empiricists must marginalize the whole field. It's the only way to throw out 100 years worth of data, yet still think their world view is correct.


Careful Pest...you and I agree on much.

My own reading of The Bell Curve and ABOUT it suggests that it is villified not because of its science or because it is actually racist, but only because of its substantial and substantiated findings, which tend to ruffle PC feathers.

You are in good company. I've been tagged as a RAAACCCIIISSSTTTTT!!!! as well. Why? Because I favor enforcement of our immigration laws and booting the kids of illegals out of our "free" schools and because I've made the RAAACCCIIISSSTTT observation that schools with 70- 90% "Hispanic" (PC for "Illegal Aliens from Latin countries") populations, tend to (shocker!) do worse on the whole in my satate's standardized testing.

Tokie

Tokie
 
... "Hispanic" (PC for "Illegal Aliens from Latin countries") populations,...

I will do the math homework for the person that can explain to me how this phrase, apparently characterizing an entire population as being illegal immigrants, is not racist.
 
Ah.

Brilliant riposte that neatly puts paid to every thing I've said in here.

Tokie
No, it just illustrated that my students, who graduated from high school much more recently than you claim to have, exhibit superior competence compared to yours.
 
Last edited:
I will do the math homework for the person that can explain to me how this phrase, apparently characterizing an entire population as being illegal immigrants, is not racist.
Maybe you explain to some people what "correlation does not imply causation" means.
That's more math tutoring than math homework, though.
 
Last edited:
So what conclusion have we reached? Everyone should be given the opportunity to achieve as much education as they desire, but the educational settings need to be customized for individual ability. The most able should not be slowed down by the less able, and the less able should not be expected to graduate from MIT. At the same time, however, the social mixing of people of different abilities is to be encouraged, particularly since intellectual ability is not everything in life.

So what's the problem? I have no idea, but perhaps society simply cannot handle this model.

~~ Paul
 
Last edited:
As a teacher of yutes, I assert that a college degree today is worth-- maybe-- what a highschool diploma was in the 1950s. We've dumbed down our curriculum so much, it frankly embarasses me. Worse, grade inflation now makes a B pretty close to a D decades ago.

Anyone here teach at a large urban university-- share your experience?

The bimodal distribution of ability is amazing. About half the class doesn't merit being there and will be lost if you teach college level. The other half do belong and are bored / lose out when you teach to the LCD.

The hardest thing about teaching for me is the vast difference in ability from student to student.

I think the philosophy today-- everyone deserves a college education-- is moral and reasonable, but unfortunately ignores nature (our cruel master) which dictates that no 85 will ever be a rocket scientist. It might be the right thing to do, but then don't scratch your head after when "education" results in people being even more spread out in terms of achievement, based only on their ability before they opened a book.

I have been curious about grade inflation at the university level...if a B today was truly a D in the past, we are producing graduates that won't be able to compete in the global markets. I believe that college costs and operations have turned students into commodities over the years. In the past, professors didn't care if the student passed or failed and gave the appropriate grade. Now it seems that professors are under pressure to keep students enrolled to keep the revenue stream. I would like to hear your opinion on this matter.

glenn
 
So what conclusion have we reached? Everyone should be given the opportunity to achieve as much education as they desire, but the educational settings need to be customized for individual ability. The most able should not be slowed down by the less able, and the less able should not be expected to graduate from MIT. At the same time, however, the social mixing of people of different abilities is to be encouraged, particularly since intellectual ability is not everything in life.

So what's the problem? I have no idea, but perhaps society simply cannot handle this model.

~~ Paul
Google for the Keller Plan or Personalized System of Instruction. It's labor intensive, but it works well. We ran it in intro psych and stat courses until the U cut our TAs down from 20 full time to 3 part time.
 
Well that's good, too. You do seem a bit sloe-eyed and drowsy in most of your posts.

Tokie
I have to slow down to your pace and level, if that's what you mean.

Frankly, I'd rather watch and learn from people who know what they're talking about and can disagree reasonably without resorting to childish tantrums and inanely childish repetition, even when their views are not in agreement.

You could learn something...




Heh, what am I saying...it's Tokie I'm talking to. :rolleyes:
 
So what conclusion have we reached? Everyone should be given the opportunity to achieve as much education as they desire, but the educational settings need to be customized for individual ability. The most able should not be slowed down by the less able, and the less able should not be expected to graduate from MIT. At the same time, however, the social mixing of people of different abilities is to be encouraged, particularly since intellectual ability is not everything in life.

So what's the problem? I have no idea, but perhaps society simply cannot handle this model.

~~ Paul

This model was in use in public schools prior to about the mid-1960s. Was it entirely fair? No. You had teachers (who were, by the way, better educated then than they are now) deciding on this, but it was not until after about 1965 that they started institutionalizing this with what was called "tracking." At that point, a teacher in 1st or 2nd grade (6-7 years old) would make a decision about each child: is he a "dummy" or smart? Whichever was decided, that would attach to his or her permanent record (yeah, there is such a thing) and follow that student all through school, including when/if he/she moved. In jr. high (what today is called middle school) "dummies" and avg. and smart kids would begin to be seperated out from one another until by high school there were "general" courses that the dummies went through and more advanced courses for the avg. to smart kids.

Now, to be sure, since the pubs have to take all-comers, there are going to be vast disparities between aptitudes, attitudes, upbringing, and yes, intelligence. But having a 1-2nd grade teacher decide, essentially, the life-fate of someone seems, oh...I dunno rilly, rilly stupid?

Back then, of course, one simply did not question the teacher, the principal or the school. It was most often the case, these were the most educated people most people were ever in contact with. Then, more and more Americans became more and more educated and more and more avg. to smart "kids" who were identified as "dummies" in this system said to themselves "they are not doing this to MY kids."

And the schools were forced to change.

So, what the schools have done is, of course, go overboard in the OTHER direction. Since about the mid-80s or so, when the kids who went through this began becoming school-age parents themselves, and unlike their parents and certainly grandparents, raising holy hell down to the school over everything from lunchroom menu to seating charts to yes...QUALITY of education, the schools have had to react.

One would THINK that they would try to change for the better. Instead, they've changed for the worse in their reacation to this backlash. Today, they simply don't recognize ANY difference in ability, aptitude, intelligence, etc. They do not teach to the high middle and low. Instead they teach ONLY to the low. Given, this is largely in response to bitching parents of truly low-intelligence kids--the squeaky wheel gets the grease. But it has also worked out very much in the teachers' favor.

Of course, teachers in here laugh at this. They are attracted to a forum such as this because they are not the norm. Still, none are intellectually honest enough to admit that Ms. Jones down the hall has all the intellectual weight of gossamer. Or that Mr. Smith downstairs should have been forced out of teaching years ago. But the reality is that of the positive feedback loop of America's entire education system: you have kids being poorly educated for the most part. They (typical case) leave the K-12 system barely educated to the equivalent of the 6th grade circa 1940-1950. Nonetheless, many are still able to get into public colleges/unis which, as someone noted, are no longer institutions of higher learning so much as profit-making enterprises that compete and compete HARD for every student for the exact same reasons K-12 schools do so: $$.

But the colleges and unis have to deal with the product K-12 is sending them. Look at any college catalog...get hold of some from say, 1960. Compare the numbers of remedial courses offered. Typically, these course are there just to get the students up to the ability to pass 100/entry-level courses like "the essay" and "the research paper" and beg. math and science classes.

So how is this in the teachers' favor? Well, teachers, typically, graduate from the very lowest levels of their college graduating classes. That's just a fact. So we now have teachers poorly educated in our K-12 system who graduated at the lowest levels in college teaching our kids K-12. In order to survive, they must dumb-down what they teach, graduating kids who are dumbed-down, who go into college; some of them become teachers, already dumbed-down a degree lower than their K-12 teacher; they then, in order to survive, must dumb-down THEIR students...some of whom go on to become...teachers?

This is called a positive feedback loop. And as anyone can see, the more dumbed-down the curricula are, the easier it is for "teachers," who are themselves today the 4th-5th generation of dumbed-down students.

It's really pretty easy to understand once you understand--and admit to--the system as it has existed past about 1965.

Tokie
 
I will do the math homework for the person that can explain to me how this phrase, apparently characterizing an entire population as being illegal immigrants, is not racist.

Hmmm...I see we have problems with comprehension, as well!

Let me draw a purty pitchur: I am (pretty clearly to anyone with say, a 4th grade reading comprehension ability) identifying the way in which the politically correct pursposely misrepresent "and entire population." I realize that as a freshly-minted "teacher" you have been taught to seperate Americans by a host of issue: skin color, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc. As a non-bigot, I don't do that. I seperate people as to nationality, though. And what is meant by "Hispanic" among your kind today, is "immigrant (from Latin America/Carib)." When one translates your "immigrant" what one comes up with is "ILLEGAL immigrant."

Now, many Americans identify themselves as "Hispanic." Many like several of my neighbors are, like me with my accidental Irish-German background, are simply Americans whose heritage happens to be Spanish/Latin. Like me, they speak English, not Spanish (in fact, my neighbor to the north who works in construction complains bitterly about the *racial epithet deleted so Tokie won't get banned* who look down their nose at him because "I have the brown skin but don't speak a word of Spanish because--I'm an American!"--yes, that's an example of one: please feel to run around screaming about it now. Oh...same issue with my neighbor to the south, whose family came here in the early 1500s from Spain. He also does not speak Spanish).

What the left and compromised conservatives actually MEAN today when they say "Hispanic" is "illegal alien." And that's exactly what YOU mean LA.

So now I'm confused...It's TOKIE who is the racist because he identifies people according to nationality, not LA, who identifies people according to the color of their skin.

Ah. I see.

Tokie
 
Token said:
One would THINK that they would try to change for the better. Instead, they've changed for the worse in their reacation to this backlash. Today, they simply don't recognize ANY difference in ability, aptitude, intelligence, etc. They do not teach to the high middle and low. Instead they teach ONLY to the low. Given, this is largely in response to bitching parents of truly low-intelligence kids--the squeaky wheel gets the grease. But it has also worked out very much in the teachers' favor.
This may be true in some school systems you've witnessed, but it is not true in my school system. There are basic and advanced classes in subjects beginning around the 5th grade. This becomes standard practice for every subject starting in 9th grade, where there are as many as three different levels for certain courses. There are also dozens of half-credit courses geared to specific interests, and approximately 40 after-school clubs.

Then there is the question of special education students, of which we have two. These students are mainstreamed, at the parent's discretion, to the extent possible. However, the classes are certainly not dumbed down to accommodate them. Instead, their particular assignments and homework are modified. The high school offers remedial courses.

I will grant you that I live in a wealthy town and share a high school district with an adjacent wealthy town. However, I think you are generalizing a bit.

Here is my thought on the subject, although it is of no particular use: Prior to the 1970s, kids had more options for what to do with their lives: finish high school, go to college, work the family farm, join the family business, apprentice to a tradesman, become a housewife, become a domestic, stay in a sheltered family life. Nowadays everyone is expected to finish high school and go to college. One piece of evidence for this expectation is standardized testing. If those many options were the expectation, there would be no point to standardized testing, but now everyone is standardized. However, a standardized life path can only guarantee "success" if it is geared to a lower common denominator.

~~ Paul
 
Token said:
... observation that schools with 70- 90% "Hispanic" (PC for "Illegal Aliens from Latin countries") populations, tend to (shocker!) do worse on the whole in my satate's standardized testing.
You appear to be implying here that there are schools with 70--90% illegal Latins. Is that the case?

What the left and compromised conservatives actually MEAN today when they say "Hispanic" is "illegal alien." And that's exactly what YOU mean LA.
I really dislike it when a poster goes all armchair psychologist. You do not know what LA means when she says "Hispanic," so why spew such nonsense?

So now I'm confused...It's TOKIE who is the racist because he identifies people according to nationality, not LA, who identifies people according to the color of their skin.
But you just said that LA is identifying people according to their immigration status. What does that have to do with the color of their skin? Perhaps you meant to say '... "Hispanic" is "illegal alien of Hispanic origin."' Even if that is what LA meant, which I doubt, she would be identifying people by their background, not skin color.

~~ Paul
 
Last edited:
Hmmm...I see we have problems with comprehension, as well!

Let me draw a purty pitchur: I am (pretty clearly to anyone with say, a 4th grade reading comprehension ability) identifying the way in which the politically correct pursposely misrepresent "and entire population." I realize that as a freshly-minted "teacher" you have been taught to seperate Americans by a host of issue: skin color, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc. As a non-bigot, I don't do that. I seperate people as to nationality, though. And what is meant by "Hispanic" among your kind today, is "immigrant (from Latin America/Carib)." When one translates your "immigrant" what one comes up with is "ILLEGAL immigrant."

Now, many Americans identify themselves as "Hispanic." Many like several of my neighbors are, like me with my accidental Irish-German background, are simply Americans whose heritage happens to be Spanish/Latin. Like me, they speak English, not Spanish (in fact, my neighbor to the north who works in construction complains bitterly about the *racial epithet deleted so Tokie won't get banned* who look down their nose at him because "I have the brown skin but don't speak a word of Spanish because--I'm an American!"--yes, that's an example of one: please feel to run around screaming about it now. Oh...same issue with my neighbor to the south, whose family came here in the early 1500s from Spain. He also does not speak Spanish).

What the left and compromised conservatives actually MEAN today when they say "Hispanic" is "illegal alien." And that's exactly what YOU mean LA.

So now I'm confused...It's TOKIE who is the racist because he identifies people according to nationality, not LA, who identifies people according to the color of their skin.

Ah. I see.

Tokie

Well now, this makes absolutely no sense. You said:

... "Hispanic" (PC for "Illegal Aliens from Latin countries") ...

How does that turn into me being racist and translating, "Hispanic," into, "Illegal Alien?" How did you assume that I identify people according to the color of their skin by my response of:

I will do the math homework for the person that can explain to me how this phrase, apparently characterizing an entire population as being illegal immigrants, is not racist.

In fact, how, from that response, do you know anything of how I identify people?

Or my politics?

You know, the funny thing is, since I moved here, I've had the same problem as your neighbor.

And I'm not even Hispanic.
 
I have been curious about grade inflation at the university level...if a B today was truly a D in the past, we are producing graduates that won't be able to compete in the global markets.

I, too, am curious. If our universities are offering such shoddy education, then why are so many foreign (especially Asian) students coming to the US for college educations?

Is there any evidence for this alleged grade inflation at the University level?
 
All I have to say is this: In order to be even accepted into the University of Heidelberg here in Germany, I have to actually have the equivalent of German high school, which seems to teach the same things as the beginning courses in American colleges.
 
All I have to say is this: In order to be even accepted into the University of Heidelberg here in Germany, I have to actually have the equivalent of German high school, which seems to teach the same things as the beginning courses in American colleges.

Too broad of a stroke...depends on the college and the high school in the US. Top level colleges don't have easy beginning courses and only accept top level students...there are about 2000 4-year colleges and universities in the states and a similar number of 2-year institutions. Some colleges just require a checkbook to get in; some require the student to be able to convert lead into gold.

glenn
 
Too broad of a stroke...depends on the college and the high school in the US. Top level colleges don't have easy beginning courses and only accept top level students...there are about 2000 4-year colleges and universities in the states and a similar number of 2-year institutions. Some colleges just require a checkbook to get in; some require the student to be able to convert lead into gold.

glenn
Well, that's part of why it was the only thing I'd say. I really haven't bet on any horse in this debate.

However, it's scared me how many genuinely truly uneducated people I've run into, but that's subject to confirmation bias, and many of them probably dropped out of advanced education anyways.
 
I, too, am curious. If our universities are offering such shoddy education, then why are so many foreign (especially Asian) students coming to the US for college educations?

Is there any evidence for this alleged grade inflation at the University level?

Found some interesting links...however, it would take a fair amount of study.

http://gradeinflation.com/

http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/perspectives/sub.asp?key=245&subkey=576

http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/gi.htm

http://www.mnsu.edu/cetl/teachingresources/articles/gradeinflation.html

This last link lists probable causes...which include the desire to keep students sending in checks.

One site--not listed here-- indicated higher SAT scores for students entering the university as a probable cause of the increase in grades...however, the SAT has been dumbed down for quite some time now and I don't think it would be a good indication.

In a USA today article..which would not be a good source in my opinion...indicated that some universities posted average grades given in courses in an effort to stop the inflation problem. That policy lead to students to take the classes that had high grades listed as they thought they would be easy. Very disappointing. I took classes I was interested in and didn't think about how difficult they would be.

glenn
 
Two quick points:

Someone on this thread is a racist and a bigot, although I can't name names.

That same person who must remain nameless doesn't have a single clue about education in America.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom