A Gravy Paper: William Rodriguez, Escape Artist

[RedIbis]

And yet, still consistent with what Gravy said. These are minor quibbles on non-substantive points. He smelled a fuel-like smell. Ok... consistent with both Gravy's kerosene and your diesel. 100 feet away? Close enough; the point is that he was neither directly under the towers, nor in New Jersey. He was damned close. Gravy's narrative does not require him to have been precisely 100 feet away.

I have seen critiques where a statement, when examined, starts to unravel an entire story and expose it as a lie. I have also seen this "critique".

Quite a difference.

This is another example of a misquote that Gravy uses to support his hypothesis. I posted this in the other Gravy paper thread. It's sufficient for responding to this post as well as WildCat's.


As an example of Gravy's poor twisting of his words, there is this passage in Gravy's paper:

"There were jet fuel fireballs in the basement. Remember? You said this: 'When the explosion happened in the basement there was fire all over, and this guy tried to cover his face… '” (Video: William Rodriguez An American Hero. 2005, Snowshoe Films)

What Rodriguez calls an "explosion" Gravy concludes was "jet fuel fireballs".

Couldn't the explosion have been caused by something else?

 

[GT/CS]

This is another example of a misquote that Gravy uses to support his hypothesis. I posted this in the other Gravy paper thread. It's sufficient for responding to this post as well as WildCat's.


As an example of Gravy's poor twisting of his words, there is this passage in Gravy's paper:

"There were jet fuel fireballs in the basement. Remember? You said this: 'When the explosion happened in the basement there was fire all over, and this guy tried to cover his face… '” (Video: William Rodriguez An American Hero. 2005, Snowshoe Films)

What Rodriguez calls an "explosion" Gravy concludes was "jet fuel fireballs".

Couldn't the explosion have been caused by something else?

At that particular moment, most likely not.

 

[WildCat]

Couldn't the explosion have been caused by something else?

Yeah, Rodriquez says it was diesel, so it must have been a semi-truck that hit the WTC! Maybe one of the ones stealing all the trillions in gold from the vault!

 

[Mercutio]

Couldn't the explosion have been caused by something else?

Certainly. Gravy does not assume that it was a jet fuel fireball, he concludes that it was. Most likely because it fits with all the other available evidence.

But of course, it could have been caused by something else. Not conventional explosives, because the characteristics of the blast are entirely wrong. Maybe someone's propane tank leaked and exploded... but I doubt it. Maybe someone got loose with a flame-thrower... but I doubt it. The characteristics of the explosion point to some sorts of causes, and away from others. Gravy's narrative is consistent with the evidence. Do you have another hypothesis that is consistent with the evidence?

 

[RedIbis]

Certainly. Gravy does not assume that it was a jet fuel fireball, he concludes that it was. Most likely because it fits with all the other available evidence.

But of course, it could have been caused by something else. Not conventional explosives, because the characteristics of the blast are entirely wrong. Maybe someone's propane tank leaked and exploded... but I doubt it. Maybe someone got loose with a flame-thrower... but I doubt it. The characteristics of the explosion point to some sorts of causes, and away from others. Gravy's narrative is consistent with the evidence. Do you have another hypothesis that is consistent with the evidence?

You're giving Gravy a very long leash. Just because we might be working towards a conclusion that we think is well corroborated does not mean we get to reword and misquote to fit our theory.

 

[Mercutio]

Please remember that advice when you read the troothers' websites. In my opinion, Gravy does not distort the words of those whom he quotes. If he does, in your opinion, please comment on the actions of the conspiracy theorists, using the same standards.

 

[RedIbis]

Please remember that advice when you read the troothers' websites. In my opinion, Gravy does not distort the words of those whom he quotes. If he does, in your opinion, please comment on the actions of the conspiracy theorists, using the same standards.

There are many irresponsible researchers on both sides of this debate. I am no more responsible for them as you are.

Gravy is responsible for his paper. I took issue with several of his claims. Rodriguez used the word "explosion" Gravy interpreted that as "jet fuel fireballs."

Since the presence of "jet fuel fireballs" is central to the thesis of his paper, this is a crucial point that deserves the utmost accuracy.

 

[Mercutio]

As said earlier, "jet fuel fireballs" is a conclusion, not an assumption, and it is consistent with the evidence and testimony. Even Rodriguez's. So far, I have not seen any other explanation for the "explosion" that fits. Have you?

There may be irresponsible researchers on both sides, but Gravy is not one of them. The very fact that this trivial point is what you are harping on, shows how sound his scenario is.

 

[GT/CS]

Red, since you don't have a reasonable alternative theory as to what caused the explosion have you heard any alternative theory from anyone that is reasonable, that you care to share with us? This is an intelligent group and they are always interested in listening to reasonable alternative theories.

 

[BenBurch]

If there were explosions in the basement before the aircraft strike, where are the radio logs of a box alarm to the site prior?

I've listened to the Manhattan Fire and EMS dispatch tapes, and there was no call for the site prior to the aircraft.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

I guess it's a big overly presumptuous to assume that a giant burning fireball traveling at super fast speeds down the elevator shafts, blowing out the heavy metals doors would case an explosion sound. It's probably more likely to create a sound more like a whoopy cushion right?

Obviously such an event would make no sound while useless explosives that would serve no purpose and leave no such recognizable damage or traces would.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I guess it's a big overly presumptuous to assume that a giant burning fireball traveling at super fast speeds down the elevator shafts, blowing out the heavy metals doors would case an explosion sound. It's probably more likely to create a sound more like a whoopy cushion right?

Obviously such an event would make no sound while useless explosives that would serve no purpose and leave no such recognizable damage or traces would.

Also, explosives below an observer cause a fireball to descend from a point above the observer. It's science, people!

 

[gumboot]

Every time I hear a conspiracy theorist talking about explosives and bombs I immediately just observe that said person has quite obviously never been anywhere near an actual high explosive detonation at any point in their entire life.

As someone on this forum so aptly put it, "loud noise" != "bomb"

-Gumboot

 

[LashL]

Let's call a spade a spade here.

Rodriguez is a liar and a fraud who has deliberately and knowingly embellished his story for his own benefit over the past few years in hopes of making a name for himself and in hopes of garnering a movie deal.

He's not much different than Sylvia Brown; he just has a different schtick.

 

[TjW]

Yeah, Rodriquez says it was diesel, so it must have been a semi-truck that hit the WTC! Maybe one of the ones stealing all the trillions in gold from the vault!

Most likely not. No one said the towers falling sounded "like a diesel truck going by". No, many people said it sounded like "the rumbling of a train"*.
Trains are fueled by diesel. No trucks were seen leaving with the gold, but the subway station underneath the WTC was not available to the public immediately after the collapse. Trains are routinely used to carry heavy loads.
Do I need to connect all the dots for you?


*Not "the ramblings of A-Train". That would be something different.

 

[Gravy]

Certainly. Gravy does not assume that it was a jet fuel fireball, he concludes that it was. Most likely because it fits with all the other available evidence.

Just as Rodriguez publicly said it was a jet fuel fireball, on television in 2001 and 2002, and to NIST in 2004. To the doubters, keep in mind that, as did all the other witnesses, Rodriguez heard and felt one explosion emanating from the basement, not several at different times. Edward McCabe (spelling left as is):

I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4. I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building. I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant.

I later on found out the reason there was an explosion was the jet fuel filled the elevator shaft and seconds later a spark triggered an explosion. i stood at the bottom of this staircase wondering what happened. seconds later through the smoke came people who worked beyond that door for the construction company. they were all secrataries, they walked like zombies not speaking I can smell their burnt flesh. one was bleeding pretty bad and i started to walk her to path train station accross the plant. 1 woman seemed unharmed and i asked her what happened. she told me a bomb blew up their offices.

when we got to the PATH platform i layed the woman down, she thanked me, and i returned to the blown door to see if i could find anyone else. Sure enough there were more, the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now and i can see there were no longer any walls just rubble. 1 woman was under her desk refusing to come out. after a little coaxing she came and at this point a few of my colleuges, were sifting through the rubble, trying to find anybody. we did about 3 trips. everyone was out.

I'm still waiting to hear a plausible alternative to the jet fuel scenario, that accounts for all the observations, from the conspiracy believers. I can't think of one.

 

[GT/CS]

Red, since you don't have a reasonable alternative theory as to what caused the explosion have you heard any alternative theory from anyone that is reasonable, that you care to share with us? This is an intelligent group and they are always interested in listening to reasonable alternative theories.

Red, you still out there? Oh I'm sorry, you must be still looking for that reasonable theory for us. Sorry to bother you. Keep working on it.

 

[Swing Dangler]

The big problem with your list of bs is if an explosive was used, there would be a dead William and dead people from concussions. You are missing the big picture, you may not have the experience as evidenced in your list. You must come up with the proof of explosives and you have failed for 6 years to come up with facts. When can we expect a breakthrough from 9/11 truth?

To nut, the problem is that is the logic and the facts needed to support a fireball from jet fuel. And guess what? You can't. Gravy can't. NIST can't. R Mackey can't. The 9/11 Com. can't.None of you bunks can.
How many times do I have to offer that challenge?
If that is truly what happened, the facts should support it easily, but alas, they don't! But you and your friends decide to choose an unfounded and unsupported theory.

ust as Rodriguez publicly said it was a jet fuel fireball, on television in 2001 and 2002, and to NIST in 2004. To the doubters, keep in mind that, as did all the other witnesses, Rodriguez heard and felt one explosion emanating from the basement, not several at different times. Edward McCabe (spelling left as is):

I later on found out the reason there was an explosion was the jet fuel filled the elevator shaft and seconds later a spark triggered an explosion.

And I contend that William was later told the jet fuel excuse just like McCabe was and many others.

Yet you can't even offer the route the jet fuel took to get to the sub levels and B-4! You can't explain how people closest to the impact and over pressure survived while parts of the basement did not! Your entire paper is basically an entire hit piece on one man based upon an scientifically unproven illogical theory that can't be demonstrated by the facts. No wonder Willie ignores you as your attack piece is the only way to attack the alternative explanation that fits the facts and can only be proven false by chemical testing which was not done!

Yeah, Rodriquez says it was diesel, so it must have been a semi-truck that hit the WTC! Maybe one of the ones stealing all the trillions in gold from the vault!

Are you that clueless to realize the smell most likely came from the parking garage where apparently an explosive device or devices may have been located in a truck was used to destroy the garage among other things in the basement?
Are you so dense as to ignore the historical tactics of terrorists especially in relation to these buildings?
Are you such a believer that you refuse to trace the route the fireball took to cause the damage in the basement and still account for survivors?
Are you not the mathematician that can provide the overpressure data and fuel/air ratio that is needed to support this theory?

 

[Corsair 115]

To nut, the problem is that is the logic and the facts needed to support a fireball from jet fuel. And guess what? You can't. Gravy can't. NIST can't. R Mackey can't. The 9/11 Com. can't.None of you bunks can.

The facts don't support planted explosives or thermite either.

 

[Mercutio]

Are you that clueless to realize the smell most likely came from the parking garage where apparently an explosive device or devices may have been located in a truck was used to destroy the garage among other things in the basement?

What sort of explosives would have had a characteristic fuel smell AND exhibit the sort of blast characteristics described by the witnesses? I do not know of any, but since you seem to think it obvious, you must have done your research on this point. (I won't bother yet to ask how it was choreographed with such precision to the arrival of the planes.)