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Paycheck To Paycheck workers

What is your current financial condition

  • I've always lived paycheck to paycheck

    Votes: 27 20.3%
  • I'm currently paycheck to paycheck, but its temporary

    Votes: 17 12.8%
  • I'm not paycheck to paycheck now, but I have been in the past

    Votes: 40 30.1%
  • I was paycheck to paycheck only when I first started my career

    Votes: 19 14.3%
  • I've never been paycheck to paycheck

    Votes: 17 12.8%
  • I'm rich, I don't need to work

    Votes: 3 2.3%
  • On Planet X, we all get paid in goat vouchers

    Votes: 10 7.5%

  • Total voters
    133
  • Poll closed .
Maybe I only know about economics... :whistling

You know, as vitriolic as my post was, I don't have that firm a stance (one way or the other) on a minimum wage. There were a few things in your posts that caught my attention and I commented on.

Of course, in Alberta, a lot of the... umm... schlub jobs that seem to be under discussion here are going for much higher that the recently increased provincial minimum wage. You can't get good help for cheap anymore! Anyone will recognize this when they are served their donuts by a 12-year-old (true story)!

However, I do think there are some merits, in some places, to minimum wages. There are times when "the market" clearly fails the people that make it up. I disagree with JoeEllison.

We do live in a society, we do live in a country... and we also live in a market.

...

It's funny, Alberta was just called "socialist" by an American pundit, based on a report, and the government hasn't even done anything yet!
 
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I disagree with JoeEllison.

We do live in a society, we do live in a country... and we also live in a market.

Since you disagree with me, you're wrong, Tigger! (how's THAT for an ad hom? :D)

Seriously, though, while I can see your point, I feel that "the market" should be a component of the society, instead of a replacement for it. Some people seem to think that this mythical "market" IS society, in a way, that it creates and sustains positive societies. All it does is move money, goods, and services around... and, unrestricted, it eventually moves all the money in one direction.
 
However, I do think there are some merits, in some places, to minimum wages. There are times when "the market" clearly fails the people that make it up.

That is a very reasonable statement. Capitalism is not without its flaws. If government limits its "interference" to what is appropriate to keep the dark side in check, I'm happy.
 
You know, as vitriolic as my post was, I don't have that firm a stance (one way or the other) on a minimum wage. There were a few things in your posts that caught my attention and I commented on.


Vitriolic? I didn't see any of that - maybe your avatar fooled me.

And my word use was inconsistent - but I don't think an ethos can defined without a context from economics, although perhaps that's just a personal foible.

Of course, in Alberta, a lot of the... umm... schlub jobs that seem to be under discussion here are going for much higher that the recently increased provincial minimum wage. You can't get good help for cheap anymore! Anyone will recognize this when they are served their donuts by a 12-year-old (true story)!


There are no minimum wage jobs here either - it has been left far behind by both inflation and demand.

However, I do think there are some merits, in some places, to minimum wages. There are times when "the market" clearly fails the people that make it up. I disagree with JoeEllison.


A one-size-fits-all rule inevitably leaves some out.

The last minimum wage boost here in the US all but put some ARC's out of business. That's the various state Association of Retarded Citizens that tries to provide some employment to such citizens. Afterwards they got a special dispensation (in some places).

And speaking of vitriol ...

We do live in a society, we do live in a country... and we also live in a market.


We do indeed. I would encourage everyone to be the best citizen they can in the best manner they can. But I would never mandate it.

It's funny, Alberta was just called "socialist" by an American pundit, based on a report, and the government hasn't even done anything yet!


Sorry, missed it.
 
I think a fairly nice compromise would probably be to lower or perhaps even eliminate the minimum wage but increase earned income tax credit (or replace with something comparable like a negative income tax or whatever) to the point where anyone working full time receives a living income. Having the money come from the government (that is, the economy as a whole) assures that employers aren't forced to either pay workers "more than what their work is worth" or not have workers at all.

After all, if we look at minimum wage laws by saying that "society as a whole" has decided that the working poor deserve a basic income, then it is quite reasonable from a brute economic point of view that it be "society as a whole" that foots the bill. Additionally, this way you don't have to worry about the minimum wage taking jobs away because of businesses being priced out of the labor market. There is, of course, the concern that whatever tax is used to fund this might have a negative effect, but there at least the damage is spread out.
 
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The last minimum wage boost here in the US all but put some ARC's out of business. That's the various state Association of Retarded Citizens that tries to provide some employment to such citizens. Afterwards they got a special dispensation (in some places).

See? Regardless of various political views, it's statements like these (especially in threads where humour is not in abundance), that make one look like one has little regard for other people...
 
Both of your issues are wrong and frankly disturbing. You seem to be saying that some people deserve to live in poverty, even though they work full time jobs. You're also parroting my "free market" myth. The only think that unregulated capitalism does is transfer wealth to the wealthy and from everyone else.

So, since neither of your points is valid to any sort of society that decent people would want to live in, what else have you got?

No one *deserves* to be poor. I, like some others here, once worked three jobs to make ends meet. I don't have to do that now, but it's not because I *deserve* better, it's because I just happen to have a particular skill set that is a bit rare and is in demand right now. At one time, my industry was so slumped that the number of workers in the industry dropped by nearly 50% in two years. I managed to keep a job in my field, but I had been willing to put up with a lot of hard times and years without salary increases. Many of my friends eventually found jobs in other fields, making much less money.

The company I work for just raised one particular job, our construction superintendents, rates by $4 per hour. It was to keep them from leaving for competitors. Our rate sheet (the rates we pay for all the different jobs) had a 28% increase in 2006. Our average employee got a 28% increase LAST YEAR. The AutoCad techs got a $5 per hour raise last year. I do not know if they *deserve* the raise - some of the employees work much harder than others, but everyone got the raise, because the industry is so terribly short of skilled workers that in order to keep doing our business, we have to compete for the workers through salaries. Code welders now make $35 per hour, and most work a minimum of 70 hours per week. With overtime that is almost $3000 per week, plus they charge the company a rate to use their own welding rigs. If they are traveling out of town, we pay them per diem. We either supply them a truck or they charge the company a rate to use their own truck. In fact, one of the reasons we raised the construction superintendent's wages was because the welders, who they supervise, were making more money than they were.

The welding schools have waiting lists, and new graduates, who have no experience, have job offers before they even graduate. In 2-4 years, there will be a surplus of welders, and the wages will drop, or the welders who aren't as experienced or good will have a hard time finding work.

Of course this is anecdotal, but it's my own experience in the past 20 years of trying to find certain job skills that are needed. Unless you are independently wealthy or have some sort of celebrity position (acting, for example), your job is based on a market demand and the number of people who are available and willing to do it for that rate. It is not right that people can't afford the necessities of life. The market tends to level *over time* but that doesn't mean that it works for individuals very well.
 
It is not right that people can't afford the necessities of life.
I think that pretty much says it all. People can cite "the market", or whatever other rationalizations, but it comes down to the fact that it isn't right that people can work 40+ hours a week and still barely scrape by, living one emergency away from homelessness.
 
I go with Churchill, who said (paraphrasing): any employer who can't pay their employees a decent living wage shouldn't be an employer
 
I go with Churchill....

Winston Churchill also said, "Those who aren't liberal by the time their thirty have no heart and those who aren't conservative by the time their forty have no brain."
 
Winston Churchill also said, "Those who aren't liberal by the time their thirty have no heart and those who aren't conservative by the time their forty have no brain."

what does that have to do with what I wrote?
 
Why introduce ethics at all? The market knows no ethics only people do.
Ethics, integrity, basic honest are valuable commodities in both employees and employers. And scientists.
If you value these things, and lets suppose the average market participant gives them a net positive value too, then the market will place a positive value on ethics, and will pay to "buy ethics". By what guage do you then say: "the market knows no ethics"?

jimtron said:
it's appropriate to sometimes regulate the market.
Of course, workplace safety, fraud, many places.
Why enforce these things if not for ethical reasons?
 
Me and my wife work for a combined 7 days a week (I work 4, she works 3), and we are currently living from paycheck to paycheck, but that's because we've been decorating a new baby room. Even if I say we live paycheck to paycheck, that's not taking into account that the first thing we do after each paycheck is put 50 euro's in our own saving account, 75 euro's in our son's saving account, and 75 euro's in the still unborn child's saving account.

Now that we're done with the baby room, I suspect that we can slowly go back to spending some money on luxurities the last week before the paycheck rolls in rather than trying to live of 5 dollars (4 euro's) a day for that last week.

Of course cost of living is slightly lower here than in the state we can do this on a gross income of roughly 50k euro's a year (66k us$).

So I checked: I'm living paycheck to paycheck, but it's temporary.
 
Hope you don't get yourself into my position. I have health insurance, but I've developed a serious medial condition. If I ever lose my current job I'll never be able to get health insurance again!

LLH
 
Of course cost of living is slightly lower here than in the state we can do this on a gross income of roughly 50k euro's a year (66k us$).
Are you kidding? At current exchange rates the Euro-zone is ferociously expensive relative to the US.

(By the way, at today's rate that conversion would be $70,500) :)
 
The company I work for just raised one particular job, our construction superintendents, rates by $4 per hour.

Do you still have my card?

I'm trying to get a long overdue raise out of my boss, and I don't think he takes the threat of me going elsewhere serious. This is partially my own fault for sticking with the company through thick and thin for sixteen years now. So much for being a loyal employee. :rolleyes:

Our rate sheet (the rates we pay for all the different jobs) had a 28% increase in 2006. Our average employee got a 28% increase LAST YEAR. The AutoCad techs got a $5 per hour raise last year. I do not know if they *deserve* the raise - some of the employees work much harder than others, but everyone got the raise, because the industry is so terribly short of skilled workers that in order to keep doing our business, we have to compete for the workers through salaries. Code welders now make $35 per hour, and most work a minimum of 70 hours per week. With overtime that is almost $3000 per week, plus they charge the company a rate to use their own welding rigs. If they are traveling out of town, we pay them per diem. We either supply them a truck or they charge the company a rate to use their own truck. In fact, one of the reasons we raised the construction superintendent's wages was because the welders, who they supervise, were making more money than they were.


Its definitely boom times now. Make it while you can. When I first moved to Houston, 1985, you could buy a rig truck for a song. Some welders were trying their hand at door-to-door sales to keep from losing their houses.
 

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