The Christian Roots of America's Schools

[joobz]

How is teaching intelligent design is mythology a mockery of "god's word?" After all, it really is mythology.

Not according to 3 billion people and not according to every US president (that is unless they were lying in their inaugural addresses). And for that matter not according to any country that has "In God We Trust" as their national anthem.

Are you equating "god's word" with intelligent design? You do understand that ID does not require god, but simply some creator which could also have been an alien species. In fact, the premise of ID is purely mythology since it is a non-supported just-so story used to explain our existence. There is no testable hypothesis or even a potentially testable hypothesis and therefore cannot be considered science.

Or are you confusing your statements with creationism, which is offered as a contrary hypthesis to evolution? This would be even funnier, because the catholic church has traditionally (since 1950) clearly held to the idea that evolution is a scientific fact.

"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points....Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies -- which was neither planned nor sought -- constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory." (John Paul II, Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution)

Are you claiming that the Pope isn't christian? that would be very very funny.

However, it does seem that the current Pope has backpedaled from JPII's view. This, in itself, is quite amusing. Since Catholic dogma states that the Pope's word is the word of the lord, does that mean that god agreed evolution was real, but then now says evolution isn't real? Why would an omniscient being change his mind on what is true?

You see, this kind of logic problems is what happens when faith is allowed to creep into classes where it doesn't belong. This is the strength of the secular education system, and the reason why most educational systems have secularized their teachings.

 

[Garrette]

Since Catholic dogma states that the Pope's word is the word of the lord,

To be fair to DOC, this is not entirely true. Infallibility only applies when speaking to theological doctrine.

 

[Ducky]

So this is where DOC has run to to avoid answerwing for his bollocks in the Jefferson thread.

Oh well. Have fun guys.

 

[joobz]

To be fair to DOC, this is not entirely true. Infallibility only applies when speaking to theological doctrine.

But if the church accepts a scientific theory as correct, but later rescends it, How can that not be considered a change in theological doctrine? Or is it considered that theological doctrine is allowed to change over time without a risk to infallibility?

Or is it one of those games where, when the church called slavery moral, it was indeed moral in the eyes of god. But now that the church views slavery as moral, it is indeed immoral in the eyes of god?

-this would be a very silly point to hold to.

 

[thaiboxerken]

But if the church accepts a scientific theory as correct, but later rescends it, How can that not be considered a change in theological doctrine? Or is it considered that theological doctrine is allowed to change over time without a risk to infallibility?

Or is it one of those games where, when the church called slavery moral, it was indeed moral in the eyes of god. But now that the church views slavery as moral, it is indeed immoral in the eyes of god?

-this would be a very silly point to hold to.

It's very simple, if you're a believer. The Pope's words are theological doctrine, until they aren't, thus he's infallible when the christian god is speaking through him. For example, JPII obviously didn't speak for god if the next Pope can retract the statement.

 

[Cactus Wren]

Others have put this question forward, but I'm going to repeat it for clarity.

I'm nesting the quotes (By hand. PH34R mah mad BBCode skillz), to make the strand of discussion absolutely unmistakable:

How is teaching intelligent design is mythology a mockery of "god's word?" After all, it really is mythology.

Not according to 3 billion people and not according to every US president (that is unless they were lying in their inaugural addresses). And for that matter not according to any country that has "In God We Trust" as their national anthem.

Even IF what you said was true, it doesn't matter. Intelligent Design is still mythology. No matter how many people believe a myth, it still remains a myth.

Well then you know something that all 43 US presidents don't know.

Please feel free to point to any ONE Presidential inaugural address in which the incoming President has claimed to be an adherent of "intelligent design".

For that matter, please feel free to point to any Presidential inaugural address that has MENTIONED "intelligent design".

 

[strathmeyer]

"Mirecki {professor of religious studies at Kansas University} recently wrote online that he planned to teach intelligent design as mythology in an upcoming course. He wrote it would be a “nice slap” in the “big fat face” of fundamentalists."

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/05/mirecki_hospitalized_after_beating/?breaking

Wow, just wow, DOC. Did you even read this article? It's about a bunch of Christians who beat a man. Then you can read the article comments where people keep saying "let's way until all the facts are in" because they think he faked his own beating.

Your stupidity is inspiring.

 

[kmortis]

Did you know that the 80's Rock group Styx did a version of the "Halleluija Chorus" from Handel's Messiah? I guees that makes them a Christian Rock band, huh?

 

[Ducky]

Did you know that the 80's Rock group Styx did a version of the "Halleluija Chorus" from Handel's Messiah? I guees that makes them a Christian Rock band, huh?

Xian or not, they just sucked.

Domo Origato, Styx. Without you, we would have no measure by which to know the bottom of the "suck scale."

 

[joobz]

Xian or not, they just sucked.

Domo Origato, Styx. Without you, we would have no measure by which to know the bottom of the "suck scale."

I'm sorry, but the official international unit measure of suck is the 'jar of clay'.

 

[Ducky]

Ohhh, good point.

We may have an official tie of suckage, requiring a suck off.

perhaps we start a new thread in humor or entertainment about this...

 

[kmortis]

Ohhh, good point.

We may have an official tie of suckage, requiring a suck off.

perhaps we start a new thread in humor or entertainment about this...

Now now, I'll agree that their later stuff was very...pop. But some of their earlier albums were quite good. Hell, the last part of Krakatoa was used by Lucas as inspiration for his THX "Blue Note".

Kilroy was here was a low point. Not one they ever arose from, mind you.

Still, they're not Milli Vanilli. At least JY played his own guitar.

 

[gypsey]

JoeEllison
And slaughter some Native Americans... DOC approved of that too.

DOC
If your going to say I approved of the slaughter of Native Americans, then your going to have to say you approved of the slaughter of up to 50,000 Native Americans a year by the Aztecs.

you have some proof of this ??? the aztecs weren't natives to the americas??
where did they imigrate from and when??????
i don't know what history you are reading but the aztecs never killed any of my people nor any of the tribes we were associated with
so who exactly were the aztecs killing 50,000 a year of ??

oh and the link is still available for you any time
http://www.dickshovel.com/ind.html

or this one

http://www.tolatsga.org/Compacts.html#Cherokee1

 

[gypsey]

doc
just for you since you like history so much here is another link

i don't believe you will ever look at these links much less read them and i guess this is a derail but you brought the subject up and have now ignored the answer through 3 different threads all i can do is keep posting in the hopes that you will at least drop some of your nonsense
and just because i know you won't follow the link heres a short excerpt on just one of the massacres committed by good christain soldiers

"On the morning of November 29, 1864, 600 Cheyenne and Arapahos camped on a bend of Sand Creek were awakened by the sound of charging hooves. Two thirds of these 600 were women and children as the government granted able bodied men to go east and hunt buffalo to feed their hungry families. Only 35 braves were in the camp. This made the ensuing charge all the more frightening for the women, children, elders, and remaining braves.
So great was the fear of the coming charge that men, women, and children ran from their lodges into the biting cold taking no time to fully dress. The partially dressed Indians began to gather under a huge American flag above Black Kettles lodge (Black Kettle was given the huge American flag and peace medals by Abraham Lincoln and Colonel A. B. Greenwood in Washington only a year earlier and was told that as long as the American flag was above them, no one would be harmed). The braves present surrounded the women and children gathered under the flag. At 8:00 am more than 700 cavalry men under the command of Colonel John M. Chivington and Major Scott J. Anthony, rode in and fired on the huddled Indians from two directions. After the initial charge the US soldiers dismounted and continued the indiscriminate killing of men, women, and children. During the killing unspeakable atrocities and mutilations were committed by the soldiers. Accounts from two white men, John S. Smith and Lieutenant James Connor, described the acts of dehumanization."

According to John S. Smith, Colonel Chivington knew these Indians to be peaceful before the massacre. Smith witnessed, as did helpless Indian mothers and fathers, young children having their sex organs cut away. U.S. soldiers mutilated Native American women, cutting away their breasts and removing all other sex organs. After the Massacre, soldiers displayed the women's severed body parts on their hats and stretched them over their saddle-bows while riding in the ranks. The sex organs of every male were removed in the most grotesque manner. One soldier boasted that he would make a tobacco pouch with the removed privates of White Antelope, a respected elder. Conner witnessed a soldier displaying the body parts of a woman on a stick. The fingers of Indians were cut off to get at the rings on them. Connor remembered a baby only a few months old who had been hidden in the feed box of a wagon for protection. When the soldiers discovered the baby some time later, the baby was thrown onto the frozen ground to die. In going over the site the next day, it was noted that every corpse was mutilated in some way, and scalped.

 

[kmortis]

doc
just for you since you like history so much here is another link

i don't believe you will ever look at these links much less read them and i guess this is a derail but you brought the subject up and have now ignored the answer through 3 different threads all i can do is keep posting in the hopes that you will at least drop some of your nonsense
and just because i know you won't follow the link heres a short excerpt on just one of the massacres committed by good christain soldiers

gypsey,
Just think how depraved the Natives would have been if Jesus was never born. They would never have known what it felt like to be treated so. They would probably still be stuck in pre-industrial agrarian societies.

But they wouldn't have the small pox immunity that they do now. So they got THAT going for them. Wasn't that nice of the Civilizing Christians to provide that? Small pox was deadly, now it's a historical curiosity that the Christians made your ancestors immune to.

And buffalo. If it weren't for the Christians, the herds would have gotten too big and starved themselves to death. The Christians came by and killed them almost all off, thereby saving them from the deprivation of starvation. Wasn't that kindly?

That Jesus, what a good guy.

 

[gypsey]

kmortis

gypsey,
Just think how depraved the Natives would have been if Jesus was never born. They would never have known what it felt like to be treated so. They would probably still be stuck in pre-industrial agrarian societies.

But they wouldn't have the small pox immunity that they do now. So they got THAT going for them. Wasn't that nice of the Civilizing Christians to provide that? Small pox was deadly, now it's a historical curiosity that the Christians made your ancestors immune to.

And buffalo. If it weren't for the Christians, the herds would have gotten too big and starved themselves to death. The Christians came by and killed them almost all off, thereby saving them from the deprivation of starvation. Wasn't that kindly?

That Jesus, what a good guy.

My Hero

i'm not usually as persistant about this as i am also proud of all of my heritage (Irish, Scottish and alot more) but docs unrelenting ignorance just pushed all the buttons

 

[fuelair]

Not according to 3 billion people and not according to every US president (that is unless they were lying in their inaugural addresses). And for that matter not according to any country that has "In God We Trust" as their national anthem.

You have not caught on yet to the idea that the number of people believing something has no relevance to the truth. And you have never heard of giving sops to the voting idiots (that, of course, does not refer to people capable of thought who vote - mostly just to the fundies.)

I thought " The Star Spangled Banner " was our national anthem. Did those 3 billion doofusses vote us a new one and I missed it?

 

[Doc Daneeka]

Not according to 3 billion people

If we assume that the figure you gave is correct, wouldn't that mean that there are in fact MORE people who disbelieve it than who believe it? An argument from popularity makes little sense to begin with, but it makes even less sense when the argument cited is actually a minority viewpoint.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Not according to 3 billion people and not according to every US president (that is unless they were lying in their inaugural addresses). And for that matter not according to any country that has "In God We Trust" as their national anthem.

You have not caught on yet to the idea that the number of people believing something has no relevance to the truth. And you have never heard of giving sops to the voting idiots (that, of course, does not refer to people capable of thought who vote - mostly just to the fundies.)

I thought " The Star Spangled Banner " was our national anthem. Did those 3 billion doofusses vote us a new one and I missed it?

Oh, did I say national anthem. As I said many times before in these threads "In God We Trust" is the National Motto of the US -- not its national anthem.

And as far as the number of people who believe in God or the Great Spirit I think what is significantly important is the fact that the great majority of human cultures in the history of the world have come to their beliefs in a Deity, deities or a Great Spirit "independently" of each other.

 

[DOC]

If we assume that the figure you gave is correct, wouldn't that mean that there are in fact MORE people who disbelieve it than who believe it? An argument from popularity makes little sense to begin with, but it makes even less sense when the argument cited is actually a minority viewpoint.

Actually I was being quite conservative concerning the number of people who believe in God. I gave Christians 2 billion and Islam 1 billion although its probably higher. I didn't include all the Jews and tribal people who believe in God or a Great Spirit. I'm not an expert on all the Asian religions but many of them probably believe in a single primary deity.

I never said popularity meant truth. But as I said before it would seem that the great majority of cultures in the history of the world have come to a belief in a deity, deities, or Great Spirit independently of each other.