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911 and the Propaganda Model

Originally Posted by Myriad
- News of 9/11 was censored.
- The censoring of news of 9/11 indicates power interests being protected.
- Therefore, 9/11 was an inside job. [?]

( mjd982 replies: ) That is my formulation.

I hope you're joking about this. Because:

- News of explosions prior to the Minnesota bridge collapse was censored.
- The censoring of news of explosions prior to the Minnesota bridge collapse indicates power interests being protected.
- Therefore, explosions prior to the Minnesota bridge collapse [were] an inside job.

Change "censored" to "omitted from later reports" and you arrive at the same banal "formulation".
 
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Where have I complained? I dont think your reading comp is up to much i'm afraid... I have illustrated a propensity in media which points to a conclusion, and applied this to 911.

Back to the wisecracks about reading comprehension, eh? I'm disappointed to see that. I guess I was expecting too much.

My comprehension of what you've been talking about is that pointing out what you believe is a misdeed or an injustice implies a desire to remedy it or the conditions that led to it, and therefore is a form of complaint. If not, then it's difficult to see a point to the conversation at all. You weren't illustrating your conclusion about 9/11 being an inside job because you're happy about it and want us all to share your happiness, were you?

I dont know what wars you are referring to here.


The wars that are referred to when one speaks of war criminals "running the US" and Nuremberg laws (I understand you meant trials) in the same sentence.

That is my formulation.

#1 You state that it is a non sequitur, and then you back it up with statements that have nothing to do with a notion of non sequiturs. That is a non sequitur.


Actually, the question about insurance companies was a separate paragraph bringing up a new question. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer.

It was not intended to back up the point that your formulation was a non sequitur. No such backing up is needed. Your formulation is a non sequitur on its face.

I have told you many times who the powerful interests are. These are the ones who have benefitted from 9/11.


Doesn't help.

- Censoring of news of 9/11 indicates power interests being protected.

- Power interests are those interests that benefitted from 9/11.

(Combining the previous statements)

- Censoring of news of 9/11 indicates those interests that benefitted from 9/11 are being protected.

- News of 9/11 was censored.

- Therefore, interests that benefitted from 9/11 are being protected.

- Therefore, 9/11 was an inside job. [nope]

And that's unquestionably accepting several layers of your premises that are in fact highly questionable. Not only that news of 9/11 actually was censored (which you have not proven, because you have not shown that censorship in the US is the only plausible reason the people in the UK that you point to might be ignorant of it, nor provided any direct evidence of such censorship as applied to 9/11), but also that the reason for any such censorship can only be protecting powerful interests.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Says the man who argues that the PNAC is a blueprint for 911, based on his interpretation of the language of the document.

I work in news rooms, please explain, in detail, whom you think in news organisations is the one suppressing 911 information, and how?



Condescending and patronizing lecturing me on a world you have no experience in, and I do, won't get you far MJD. Who's doing this hiring? Are you suggesting that every journalist/editor/librarian/producer/newsreader in the MSM are hired because they are gullible fools who are believe what they are spoon fed? Have you any idea of the hiring process I went through. Would you care to imagine, or guess?

Tell me MJD what system is used to establish whether one is suitable for these "systems"? What questions are asked? What criteria is drawn up? Can you answer that?

Finally I find it hilarious that you consistently link to someone who rejects your theories, in your attempts to suggest they support you.
sorry, just a quickie- 8den, as a former esteemed employee of the MSM news service, will u please tell everyone here everything you know about Diego Garcia.

NO PEEKING!!!
 
Back to the wisecracks about reading comprehension, eh? I'm disappointed to see that. I guess I was expecting too much.

My comprehension of what you've been talking about is that pointing out what you believe is a misdeed or an injustice implies a desire to remedy it or the conditions that led to it, and therefore is a form of complaint. If not, then it's difficult to see a point to the conversation at all. You weren't illustrating your conclusion about 9/11 being an inside job because you're happy about it and want us all to share your happiness, were you?




The wars that are referred to when one speaks of war criminals "running the US" and Nuremberg laws (I understand you meant trials) in the same sentence.




Actually, the question about insurance companies was a separate paragraph bringing up a new question. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer.

It was not intended to back up the point that your formulation was a non sequitur. No such backing up is needed. Your formulation is a non sequitur on its face.




Doesn't help.

- Censoring of news of 9/11 indicates power interests being protected.

- Power interests are those interests that benefitted from 9/11.

(Combining the previous statements)

- Censoring of news of 9/11 indicates those interests that benefitted from 9/11 are being protected.

- News of 9/11 was censored.

- Therefore, interests that benefitted from 9/11 are being protected.

- Therefore, 9/11 was an inside job. [nope]

And that's unquestionably accepting several layers of your premises that are in fact highly questionable. Not only that news of 9/11 actually was censored (which you have not proven, because you have not shown that censorship in the US is the only plausible reason the people in the UK that you point to might be ignorant of it, nor provided any direct evidence of such censorship as applied to 9/11), but also that the reason for any such censorship can only be protecting powerful interests.

Respectfully,
Myriad
Lets be more accurate with the deductive reasoning.

1. Censorship of rudimentary details in MSM coverage correlates to the protection of powerful interests
2. Rudimentary details were censored in 911 MSM coverage
3. Therefore the censorship of rudimentary details in the 911 MSM coverage indicates the protection of powerful interests regarding these details.

We'll leave it there as I must go to bed, but this is how the deductive sequence should look.
 
Marx, Lenin and Stalin walked into a bar...

I will repeat: Mjd's stated views on propaganda (in Russian, a perfectly respectable term, by the way -- simply indicating political education), and his methods, are quite in the style of Marxism-Leninism. You young'uns out there may not understand the point and why I am making a fuss. But fundamentally, this means that it is based on deceit, verbal aggression, censorship (!), and the like. Anything goes -- the end not only justifies the means, it mandates them.

Caveat lector.

(Oh, gosh darn it. No, I don't mean Hannibal! I mean "let the reader beware.")

Where is Noam Chomsky when he is needed? Or even Nim Chimpsky -- his avatar.
 
How is WTC7's collapse a rudimentary detail of 9/11?
It is if you first believe the "truth" movements propaganda. Other than that it's a tiny piece of a huge event that is of no consequence.

The phrase "pull it" is a perfect example. Up until the "truthers" made it one it had no explosive demolition meaning. Now it's the only meaning it has to their followers.
 
He stole from his shareholders. A small potatoes investment firm--a bunch of nobodies--caught him.
That's correct. The CBC had a piece on those who began the initial investigation into Black's spending. I can't recall which program it was; I think it was on the program the fifth estate but it might have been a regular CBC news report.
 
That's correct. The CBC had a piece on those who began the initial investigation into Black's spending. I can't recall which program it was; I think it was on the program the fifth estate but it might have been a regular CBC news report.
Thanks for the supporting remarks, Corsair. I think I caught it first in the Globe and Mail's Report on Business but it could have been in any number of "corporate propaganda machine" sources.

Mind you, Corsair, mjd1982 has already announced that it's irrelevant because it didn't result in the end of capitalism. :boggled:
 
It is if you first believe the "truth" movements propaganda. Other than that it's a tiny piece of a huge event that is of no consequence.

The phrase "pull it" is a perfect example. Up until the "truthers" made it one it had no explosive demolition meaning. Now it's the only meaning it has to their followers.
You fellas.... too precious, too damn precious.

Listen- I know you guys feel that the collapse of 7 wasnt worth much coverage, since th MSM hasnt given it such (look up the term "manufacturing consent", please oh please look this up!"

But as has been said again and again and again and again and again and again!!! on this thread, what you think matters not one jot. Not a jot! Nothing. Cos the average person disagrees with you in their droves! I know this because i talk to crowds about this. I have done such today in Parliamant Square. You havent. This is why you are a disconnected fringe movement, indirectly complicit in the murderous, never ending War on Terror.

The ignorance of your ilk has been a constant in societies over the years; it's just a shame that it is one area where Man has not been able to progress.
 
Thanks for the supporting remarks, Corsair. I think I caught it first in the Globe and Mail's Report on Business but it could have been in any number of "corporate propaganda machine" sources.

Mind you, Corsair, mjd1982 has already announced that it's irrelevant because it didn't result in the end of capitalism. :boggled:
Sorry, what was that about ignorance? Spoke too soon..,
 
You fellas.... too precious, too damn precious.

Listen- I know you guys feel that the collapse of 7 wasnt worth much coverage, since th MSM hasnt given it such (look up the term "manufacturing consent", please oh please look this up!"

But as has been said again and again and again and again and again and again!!! on this thread, what you think matters not one jot. Not a jot! Nothing. Cos the average person disagrees with you in their droves! I know this because i talk to crowds about this. I have done such today in Parliamant Square. You havent. This is why you are a disconnected fringe movement, indirectly complicit in the murderous, never ending War on Terror.

The ignorance of your ilk has been a constant in societies over the years; it's just a shame that it is one area where Man has not been able to progress.

And we are supposed to take your word for this? Why, exactly?

I love the image of droves of average people wandering to and fro, agreeing with you. Like a flock of sheep, seeking out whom they may devour.

Did Woman progress? Answer yes or no. (Just kidding. No need to answer.)

Glad to join the ilk of the precious. Yes, precious.
 
You fellas.... too precious, too damn precious.

Listen- I know you guys feel that the collapse of 7 wasnt worth much coverage, since th MSM hasnt given it such (look up the term "manufacturing consent", please oh please look this up!"

But as has been said again and again and again and again and again and again!!! on this thread, what you think matters not one jot. Not a jot! Nothing. Cos the average person disagrees with you in their droves! I know this because i talk to crowds about this. I have done such today in Parliamant Square. You havent. This is why you are a disconnected fringe movement, indirectly complicit in the murderous, never ending War on Terror.

The ignorance of your ilk has been a constant in societies over the years; it's just a shame that it is one area where Man has not been able to progress.

Really?

The last anti war demo I went on I didn't see any of your ilk there, where were they sunbeam? Maybe they were too busy listening to you ranting and raving at speakers corner. Strange that sunbeam isn't it you can go and execise your democratic right to accuse people of mass murder on the streets of London and nothing happens.

Wow how opressed you are, how censored , poor little victim, all repressed by the nasty Gov and the mass media. Em no, ignored more like .

By the way if you are so censored and so repressed how come 120 million Americans support you?
 
And we are supposed to take your word for this? Why, exactly?

I love the image of droves of average people wandering to and fro, agreeing with you. Like a flock of sheep, seeking out whom they may devour.

Did Woman progress? Answer yes or no. (Just kidding. No need to answer.)

Glad to join the ilk of the precious. Yes, precious.
All I can picture is people trying to get away from him. [dad mode] don't look kids just keep walking[end].
 
Just to show you that I care, here's a reading/watching list for you:

1. "Manufacturing Consent". Documentary on Chomsky's formulation on the capitalist propaganda system.

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=138

2. "Public Opinion". 1921 tome by legendary political columnist Walter Lippmann stating the necessity of "the manufacture of consent" for plying the public to the rulers will, and how this functions through the MSM.

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/pbpnn10.txt

3. "Propaganda", by Eddie Bernays, the formulator of the political (and business) PR industry (and coiner of the term). Again, written in 1928, illustrating the need for leaders to "serve by leading, not lead by serving"- the need to alienate public opinion from public policy through a captalistic propaganda system.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html

4. Chomsky v Andrew Marr. The then BBC political editor attempts to grill Chomsky on the Propaganda Model, but fails in a very bad way.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FSuaGIKTaEA

5. "Century of Self" a documentary tying this all in nicely.

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=140

6. Oh, and let's not forget to bring this round to 911.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10887

This will impart a lot of info to people who need it a lot. Read, watch, and wake up!
 
Just to show you that I care, here's a reading/watching list for you:

1. "Manufacturing Consent". Documentary on Chomsky's formulation on the capitalist propaganda system.

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=138

2. "Public Opinion". 1921 tome by legendary political columnist Walter Lippmann stating the necessity of "the manufacture of consent" for plying the public to the rulers will, and how this functions through the MSM.

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/pbpnn10.txt

3. "Propaganda", by Eddie Bernays, the formulator of the political (and business) PR industry (and coiner of the term). Again, written in 1928, illustrating the need for leaders to "serve by leading, not lead by serving"- the need to alienate public opinion from public policy through a captalistic propaganda system.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html

4. Chomsky v Andrew Marr. The then BBC political editor attempts to grill Chomsky on the Propaganda Model, but fails in a very bad way.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FSuaGIKTaEA

5. "Century of Self" a documentary tying this all in nicely.

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=140

6. Oh, and let's not forget to bring this round to 911.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10887

This will impart a lot of info to people who need it a lot. Read, watch, and wake up!
And the "truthers" use this propaganda on you and the rest of their flock. Sad they/you can't see through it.
 
mjd1982 and critical failure

But as has been said again and again and again and again and again and again!!! on this thread, what you think matters not one jot. Not a jot! Nothing. Cos the average person disagrees with you in their droves! I know this because i talk to crowds about this.

You fail.
You fail because there is only a handful protesting in Manhattan as we speak. You fail because there are 6, thats right SIX protesting in Seattle as we speak. You fail because they cannot even fill a movie house in Norway with 200 people for a preview of one of the most recognized and foremost 911 conspiracy videos. You fail because you constantly poll from protest speaking groups hanging out in town squares. You fail because only a fringe handful of architects or engineers that number less than five on this entire blue planet support a conspiracy. You fail because you lack a single peer reviewed document. You fail because the only exposure fantasist's get in any broadcast media is for ridicule. You fail because you make bold sweeping assertions based only on your fantasist delusions not in fact. You fail because you are a naive 20 something year old who lacks the life experience to make critical judgments. You simply don't know, And you don't know that you don't know.
 
Lets be more accurate with the deductive reasoning.

1. Censorship of rudimentary details in MSM coverage correlates to the protection of powerful interests
2. Rudimentary details were censored in 911 MSM coverage
3. Therefore the censorship of rudimentary details in the 911 MSM coverage indicates the protection of powerful interests regarding these details.

We'll leave it there as I must go to bed, but this is how the deductive sequence should look.


By using the term "correlates" you appear to have greatly weakened your first premise. Correlation does not imply causality in either direction, so you are now no longer saying that the censorship results in the protection of powerful interests, nor that protection of powerful interests causes the censorship. Only that they correlate; where one is observed, the other tends to be more frequently observed. That could be accounted for by, for instance, both phenomena increasing in frequency under more authoritarian governments. Perhaps that's not what you mean to say.

(If if is what you want to say, then statement 3 as stated does not follow. A more accurate statement 3 would be: "Therefore it is statistically more likely that the protection of powerful interests is also occurring." Nothing in your premises as stated supports the conclusion that the details being censored are what the powerful interests are being protected from.)

But while you think about whether that was what you meant to say, I'm more interested in the answer you gave when I asked you to define the "powerful interests" in question. You answered that the powerful interests were the ones who benefitted from the events of 9/11.

Is this association between being a powerful interest, and benefitting from the events, a conclusion based on evidence of the events of 9/11, or is it an a priori assumption? I ask because I've mentioned at least one interest, the insurance industry, that clearly resembles a powerful interest in all outward aspects. It's a large industry, dominated by large companies that control vast fortunes, it appears influential in setting policy, it has close ties with law enforcement, and so forth. You dismiss that claim, calling the insurance companies insignificant. If your evidence for calling them insignificant is that they did not benefit from 9/11, then it would appear that we're dealing with an a priori assumption that "benefitted (and only benefitted) implies powerful."

The problem is, such an a prior assumption will always lead to conspiracy-minded thinking, whether a conspiracy exists or not in any particular case.

Here's the Royal Road to conspiracist thinking:

1. Something significant happens.
2. Some people benefit.
3. Those who benefit are powerful interests.
4. The powerful interests caused the event.
5. The powerful interests act to prevent anyone finding out that they caused the event.

Since #2 is always true, it's important to be skeptical about #3. Otherwise you will constantly be leaping to #4 and you will start seeing conspiracies everywhere, causing hurricanes and school shootings and everything else that happens. Some powerful interests do benefit from some events. But cases when this happens have to be evaluated in the proper perspective.

As listed above, #3 is poorly stated in a way that invites misinterpretation and equivocation. It can be taken to imply that all who benefit are powerful interests, but that is never true. It can be taken to imply that all powerful interests benefit, but that is never true.

It is much clearer and more accurate to say:

3. Some powerful interests are among those who benefit.

I will point out:

- There are lots of powerful interests. Therefore, some powerful interests are likely to benefit from any given significant event.

- Likewise, some powerful interests are likely to suffer from any given significant event. You cannot ignore these, or assume a priori that if they suffered they must not be significant.

- Some interests that are not powerful are likely to benefit from any given significant event.

You cannot assume a priori that anyone who benefits must be powerful. That is one of the most catastrophic forms of careless thinking in human history, and it's driven by envy. (Some people benefitted from the Black Plague. Some of the people around during the Plague were Jews, so naturally enough, some of those who benefitted were Jews. Because of this, mobs concluded that Jews must be powerful interests [and thus, because they had no visible power, must be engaged in conspiracy, witchcraft, etc.] and had caused the Plague. From this sloppy thinking, tragedy resulted.)

9/11 did great harm to many interersts that I would call powerful. Whole industry sectors declined. Vast fortunes were lost when markets fell. Some of the world's largest corporations and banks had their operations disrupted when their buildings throughout the financial center were rendered unusable for months or longer. Meanwhile, six years later, the so-called benefits are looking dubious as the "Neocons" continue losing political influence and the Bush cabinet is all but gone.

The powerful interests that suffered instead of benefitting belie the notion of "the powerful interests are the ones who benefitted." You can claim that those who suffered weren't really powerful, or didn't really suffer, but that just makes all distinctions between "powerful" and otherwise, and/or between "benefit" and otherwise, meaninglessly circular. The truth is that powerful interests oppose one another. Otherwise the Military-Industrial Complex would have long ago made the Agro-Industrial Complex stop pushing fattening foods on Americans, so that trillions of what's now going to Medicare could help fund wars instead.

You can claim that the powerful interests who benefitted acted successfully against the powerful interests who suffered, but why would the powerful interests who suffered do so in silence? Even if they were initially fooled into thinking terrorists did it, would not the evidence amassed by the Truth movement have opened their eyes? Or does some kind of secret chivalric code forbid any powerful interest from publically tattling on any other, so that they conduct a secret war against each other?

Or maybe, sometimes people (and powerful interests) just happen to benefit from events that they did not cause?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
By using the term "correlates" you appear to have greatly weakened your first premise. Correlation does not imply causality in either direction, so you are now no longer saying that the censorship results in the protection of powerful interests, nor that protection of powerful interests causes the censorship. Only that they correlate; where one is observed, the other tends to be more frequently observed. That could be accounted for by, for instance, both phenomena increasing in frequency under more authoritarian governments. Perhaps that's not what you mean to say.

(If if is what you want to say, then statement 3 as stated does not follow. A more accurate statement 3 would be: "Therefore it is statistically more likely that the protection of powerful interests is also occurring." Nothing in your premises as stated supports the conclusion that the details being censored are what the powerful interests are being protected from.)

But while you think about whether that was what you meant to say, I'm more interested in the answer you gave when I asked you to define the "powerful interests" in question. You answered that the powerful interests were the ones who benefitted from the events of 9/11.

Is this association between being a powerful interest, and benefitting from the events, a conclusion based on evidence of the events of 9/11, or is it an a priori assumption? I ask because I've mentioned at least one interest, the insurance industry, that clearly resembles a powerful interest in all outward aspects. It's a large industry, dominated by large companies that control vast fortunes, it appears influential in setting policy, it has close ties with law enforcement, and so forth. You dismiss that claim, calling the insurance companies insignificant. If your evidence for calling them insignificant is that they did not benefit from 9/11, then it would appear that we're dealing with an a priori assumption that "benefitted (and only benefitted) implies powerful."

The problem is, such an a prior assumption will always lead to conspiracy-minded thinking, whether a conspiracy exists or not in any particular case.

Here's the Royal Road to conspiracist thinking:

1. Something significant happens.
2. Some people benefit.
3. Those who benefit are powerful interests.
4. The powerful interests caused the event.
5. The powerful interests act to prevent anyone finding out that they caused the event.

Since #2 is always true, it's important to be skeptical about #3. Otherwise you will constantly be leaping to #4 and you will start seeing conspiracies everywhere, causing hurricanes and school shootings and everything else that happens. Some powerful interests do benefit from some events. But cases when this happens have to be evaluated in the proper perspective.

As listed above, #3 is poorly stated in a way that invites misinterpretation and equivocation. It can be taken to imply that all who benefit are powerful interests, but that is never true. It can be taken to imply that all powerful interests benefit, but that is never true.

It is much clearer and more accurate to say:

3. Some powerful interests are among those who benefit.

I will point out:

- There are lots of powerful interests. Therefore, some powerful interests are likely to benefit from any given significant event.

- Likewise, some powerful interests are likely to suffer from any given significant event. You cannot ignore these, or assume a priori that if they suffered they must not be significant.

- Some interests that are not powerful are likely to benefit from any given significant event.

You cannot assume a priori that anyone who benefits must be powerful. That is one of the most catastrophic forms of careless thinking in human history, and it's driven by envy. (Some people benefitted from the Black Plague. Some of the people around during the Plague were Jews, so naturally enough, some of those who benefitted were Jews. Because of this, mobs concluded that Jews must be powerful interests [and thus, because they had no visible power, must be engaged in conspiracy, witchcraft, etc.] and had caused the Plague. From this sloppy thinking, tragedy resulted.)

9/11 did great harm to many interersts that I would call powerful. Whole industry sectors declined. Vast fortunes were lost when markets fell. Some of the world's largest corporations and banks had their operations disrupted when their buildings throughout the financial center were rendered unusable for months or longer. Meanwhile, six years later, the so-called benefits are looking dubious as the "Neocons" continue losing political influence and the Bush cabinet is all but gone.

The powerful interests that suffered instead of benefitting belie the notion of "the powerful interests are the ones who benefitted." You can claim that those who suffered weren't really powerful, or didn't really suffer, but that just makes all distinctions between "powerful" and otherwise, and/or between "benefit" and otherwise, meaninglessly circular. The truth is that powerful interests oppose one another. Otherwise the Military-Industrial Complex would have long ago made the Agro-Industrial Complex stop pushing fattening foods on Americans, so that trillions of what's now going to Medicare could help fund wars instead.

You can claim that the powerful interests who benefitted acted successfully against the powerful interests who suffered, but why would the powerful interests who suffered do so in silence? Even if they were initially fooled into thinking terrorists did it, would not the evidence amassed by the Truth movement have opened their eyes? Or does some kind of secret chivalric code forbid any powerful interest from publically tattling on any other, so that they conduct a secret war against each other?

Or maybe, sometimes people (and powerful interests) just happen to benefit from events that they did not cause?

Respectfully,
Myriad
2 problems here:

1. A strong correlation between 2 things, by definition, suggest causality. There is, of course, the caveat of datamining, and coincidences, but when the correlation is supported by evident facts, some of whih are listed in my OP, then this makes this possibility unlikely.

2. Firstly, it wasnt the insurance companies taht paid out, as I said before. It was the re, and re re insurance companies. These are not the ruling power strctures. The corporate elites, the massive corporations, have benefitted from 9/11, as have the political elites. That some re re insurance companies, not even all of which are American, have had to pay out, is insignificant.

The main power structures have benefitted, as have the US government. Mass censorship of rudimnentary detail suggests that they are being protected by such censorships.
 
You fail.
You fail because there is only a handful protesting in Manhattan as we speak. You fail because there are 6, thats right SIX protesting in Seattle as we speak. You fail because they cannot even fill a movie house in Norway with 200 people for a preview of one of the most recognized and foremost 911 conspiracy videos. You fail because you constantly poll from protest speaking groups hanging out in town squares. You fail because only a fringe handful of architects or engineers that number less than five on this entire blue planet support a conspiracy. You fail because you lack a single peer reviewed document. You fail because the only exposure fantasist's get in any broadcast media is for ridicule. You fail because you make bold sweeping assertions based only on your fantasist delusions not in fact. You fail because you are a naive 20 something year old who lacks the life experience to make critical judgments. You simply don't know, And you don't know that you don't know.
I am supported by the polls. You are not. People on the street in Seattle means nothing, compared to the polls. They support me, they dont you.
 

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