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The unsolved problem of "free will"

And, yes, I said the "I" was a process generated by the brain. As it is. But it a process in the same way that a picture is a process generated by a camera.
 
Robin said:
I would be fascinated to hear how either of those posts could possibly be misread according to you bizarre interpretation?????
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Sigh.

You agreed that the brain consisted of physical matter and acted like any other physical matter in post 336. You claimed that an interaction different from that of physical matter nevertheless existed in post 340.
 
DanishDynamite said:
Sigh.

You agreed that the brain consisted of physical matter and acted like any other physical matter in post 336. You claimed that an interaction different from that of physical matter nevertheless existed in post 340.
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I claimed nothing remotely of the sort. I didn't even refer to physical matter.

What the %$#^ are you talking about?????

It would help if you actually answered the question and demonstrated how anything I wrote in those posts could be interepreted in the way you claim.

I said a choice would have to be voluntary and a voluntary action could not be arbitrary. How exactly is "non-arbitrary" different to the action of other physical matter????
 
DanishDynamite said:
And, yes, I said the "I" was a process generated by the brain. As it is. But it a process in the same way that a picture is a process generated by a camera.
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But when I asked "Do you understand that these subjective experiences are processes?" you replied "No".

Do you now understand that subjective experiences are processes?
 
Robin said:
I claimed nothing remotely of the sort. I didn't even refer to physical matter.

What the %$#^ are you talking about?????

It would help if you actually answered the question and demonstrated how anything I wrote in those posts could be interepreted in the way you claim.

I said a choice would have to be voluntary and a voluntary action could not be arbitrary. How exactly is "non-arbitrary" different to the action of other physical matter????
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Whatever. It seems your current position is that you are now not claiming any "third" physical interaction possibility above the causal and random. Do you currently agree?
 
Robin said:
But when I asked "Do you understand that these subjective experiences are processes?" you replied "No".

Do you now understand that subjective experiences are processes?
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Which part of "No" didn't you understand?
 
Robin, please tell me in what way you disagree with my point, which I once again stated above, regarding the topic of free will. In what way do you not think this is possible?
 
Robin said:
You are not suggesting that logic is relative are you?
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Nope, not even close. I'm astonished that anyone could make a leap like that, but FYI, I was explaining to you that a statement and a question are two entirely different things.
 
The Atheist said:
Nope, not even close. I'm astonished that anyone could make a leap like that,
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I didn't, I'm not even sure what my question means.

I was just looking for a way to get you to admit that a misrepresentation is still a misrepresentation, even if you put a question mark after it.

My tactic worked beautifully.
but FYI, I was explaining to you that a statement and a question are two entirely different things.
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Indeed they are, but both can imply a misrepresentation of the other's position as I showed.
 
DanishDynamite said:
Whatever. It seems your current position is that you are now not claiming any "third" physical interaction possibility above the causal and random. Do you currently agree?
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Nice. First the straw man. Then when asked to back it up, the arrogant reiteration of the straw man. Do you have any idea what sort of trouble your position must be in to have to resort to such desparate tactics?

My position has never changed since page 5. Don't made the mistake of starting to believe your own straw men.

I have explicitly denied anything between causal and random. I have made the point quite specifically on a number of occasions.

Now please deal with what I actually say and not what you are attempting to pretend that I said.

Thank you.
 
DanishDynamite said:
Which part of "No" didn't you understand?
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It was the part where you seemed to contradict yourself and say that "I" was a process.

Nevermind, it is your considered position now, is it, that experience is not a physical process, in fact not a process at all? Right?

So what is it?
 
DanishDynamite said:
I stated it, many times. Once again, for the slow section: The question of whether we have free will is a question grounded in absurdity. The reason why is that there is no "I" to make or not to make a particular decision. There is only the processes in the brain, the processes which generate the "I" so many hold dear and also generate all the decisions and actions of said "I".
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Let me get this straight.

1. There is no "I"
2. processes in the brain generate the "I"

Right? So if there is no "I", what are the processes in the brain generating?

So there is an "I", the "I" is whatever it is that you say the processes of the brain are generating.

But why make this so complicated? Of course there is a you - just look in the mirror. That homo sapien is you and contains the brain that is generating your experiences. How much more of a "you" could there be than that?
 
(1) Free is an array of potential decisions.
(2) Decision is personality responding to environment.
(3) Choice is the moment one is conscious of decision.
(4) Will is the organic response to choice.

I think the illusion of free will comes from ignoring (2) and conflating (3) and (4) into "action". Free Will implies an array of possibities we chose from. That's an accurate higher level description, just like I hit the "I" key to create an "I" on screen describes my typing. I'm not of course creating the "I", the PC is. I'm only conscious of input and output though. It's the same for free will. We're conscious of an array of potential decisions (input), we're conscious of acting (output), but we're not conscious of our personality as it determines our choice. Thus we assign the choice to consciousness, and call it "free will".
 
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