10 story hole in WTC 7

[Galileo]

What the hell's a "falser" ?



Because this isn't a video game. Explosions tend to create shock waves.



Not in trutherverse^tm. Everything has a reason. Everything.



No relationship ? Everything's there and has been admitted on this thread. Debris started the fires. Fires spread. Fires damage other parts of the structure. Structure fails. Structure collapses.

Exactly which part of this scenario do you have a problem with ?



Why would it ? And how do you know that the lower floors of 1 WTC weren't damaged when 2 WTC came down ?



I'm sure you're right. Only deluded fools, ignoramuses and shills can believe the "official" story. Of course, that means MOST people are shills or fools, and that also places almost all of the relevant experts of the world in that category. It also means that the most impossible conspiracy theory in history is true.

Nah, I'll stick with reality.

A 9/11 falser is the opposite of a 9/11 Truther, and a 9/11 Truther seeks the truth.

I'm glad I didn't get involved in this thread back on page 1, this is the most dreadful debate I've seen since I had to sit through endless debates about Aristotle back in the 1600s.

There really is no point in this discussion.

Just as there are several witness who saw FL77 hit the Pentagon, there are several million witnesses who saw the controlled demolition of WTC 7 (either in person, on live TV, or on the Internet).

I saw the controlled demolition of WTC 7 on CBS. Dan Rather and Peter Jennings both witnessed the controlled demolition of WTC 7 as well.

The Tooth Fairy does not exist. And neither do buildings that fall just like controlled demolitions that aren't controlled demolitions. They don't exist. Ask a scientist.

If buildings fall just controlled demolitions, and millions of people see the building fall just like contolled demolitions, then you have a controlled demolition.

It doesn't matter if a few kooks & Art Bell fans on some website say otherwise, and conjecture things that do not exist. There are people on the net that have a desire for order, and if the government lied to them, that would be disorder.

For the rest of us, we will continue to live in reality while those with vivid imaginations carry on!

 

[Jonnyclueless]

A 9/11 falser is the opposite of a 9/11 Truther, and a 9/11 Truther seeks the truth.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell that to the experts.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

If buildings fall just controlled demolitions, and millions of people see the building fall just like contolled demolitions, then you have a controlled demolition.

OMG! Too funny!!!

 

[twinstead]

If buildings fall just controlled demolitions, and millions of people see the building fall just like contolled demolitions, then you have a controlled demolition.

Stundie material if there ever was one.

Galileo are you for real? I think you're a government plant to make members of the truth movement look like idiots.

One word: COINTELPRO

ETA: Statements like this have to make even the other truthers cringe

 

[twinstead]

LOL sorry, but Galileo you just slay me!

I have one: Millions of people saw the pink unicorns playing in the World Cup, therefore pink unicorns were playing in the World Cup.

Is that how it works? Anybody else?

 

[Christopher7]

Please discuss the Trade Towers on another thread.

This thread is about the evidence of debris damage and fire causing the collapse of WTC 7.

As it turns out there isn't any.

So you all avoid acknowledge this by changing the subject.




There were fires on several floors, at different times, in the area of the initiating event.
[the failure of core column 79, 80 and/or 81]

Fires in east half of WTC 7

NIST:
11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.
Fire on floor 12, moved toward the east face
2:00 to 2:30 p.m.
Fires on east face Floors 11 and 12 at the southeast corner

As of 2:30 p.m., there were fires on floors 11 and 12 in the area of the initiating event.

There is no evidence that the initiating event was caused by fire.

In order for fire to cause a core column to fail, 4 floors would have to collapse all around that column, and it would have to be uniformly heated to about 1,000*F. [columns weighed over 4 tons per floor]

There was no debris damage to or near the area of the initiating event.

If the elevators were ejected into the hallway north of the shaft near the east stairwell, columns 70 and 71 on the 8th floor would be the columns most likely to have been damaged.
An explosion big enough to eject two elevator cars near column 74 would have destroyed the east stairwell.

From 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.:
• No signs of fire or smoke were reported below the 6th Floor from the exterior, stairwells or lobby areas

The only fire reported on floor 6 was:
Looking from the southwest corner at the south face:
• Fire was seen on Floors 6, 7, 8, 21, and 30

At 12:10 to 12:15 p.m.:
• No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left Floor 8
• Cubicle fire was seen along west wall on Floor 7 just before leaving

No mention of debris or debris damage


That's your evidence.

Debris damage to the other end of the building,

and fires that a burned on a few floors, for a few hours, in the area where the collapse began.

 

[funk de fino]

Please discuss the Trade Towers on another thread.

This thread is about the evidence of debris damage and fire causing the collapse of WTC 7.

As it turns out there isn't any.

So you all avoid acknowledge this by changing the subject.

Who changed the subject?

Why have you gone quiet on Barry Jennings testimony?

If anyone is avoiding stuff, it is you on this subject?

 

[MG1962]

A 9/11 falser is the opposite of a 9/11 Truther, and a 9/11 Truther seeks the truth.

I'm glad I didn't get involved in this thread back on page 1, this is the most dreadful debate I've seen since I had to sit through endless debates about Aristotle back in the 1600s.

There really is no point in this discussion.

Just as there are several witness who saw FL77 hit the Pentagon, there are several million witnesses who saw the controlled demolition of WTC 7 (either in person, on live TV, or on the Internet).

I saw the controlled demolition of WTC 7 on CBS. Dan Rather and Peter Jennings both witnessed the controlled demolition of WTC 7 as well.

The Tooth Fairy does not exist. And neither do buildings that fall just like controlled demolitions that aren't controlled demolitions. They don't exist. Ask a scientist.

If buildings fall just controlled demolitions, and millions of people see the building fall just like contolled demolitions, then you have a controlled demolition.

It doesn't matter if a few kooks & Art Bell fans on some website say otherwise, and conjecture things that do not exist. There are people on the net that have a desire for order, and if the government lied to them, that would be disorder.

For the rest of us, we will continue to live in reality while those with vivid imaginations carry on!

Meanwhile in Rooty Hill, New South Wales, Australia - Life goes on, much as it has for the last 100 years

 

[Belz...]

A 9/11 falser is the opposite of a 9/11 Truther, and a 9/11 Truther seeks the truth.

No, truthers "know" the truth to start with. So they don't think they need to seek it. They just continue to "know" it, and invent a whole lot of reasons why they shouldn't have to research the subject.

I'm glad I didn't get involved in this thread back on page 1, this is the most dreadful debate I've seen since I had to sit through endless debates about Aristotle back in the 1600s.

Yes, it's almost as bad as Christophera's "realistice" thread. What's unfortunate is Chris7's inability to admit that the debris damage caused the fires which in turn caused the collapsed, or at least that this is a plausible scenario.

Just as there are several witness who saw FL77 hit the Pentagon, there are several million witnesses who saw the controlled demolition of WTC 7 (either in person, on live TV, or on the Internet).

I saw the controlled demolition of WTC 7 on CBS. Dan Rather and Peter Jennings both witnessed the controlled demolition of WTC 7 as well.

Galileo, what you witnesses was the COLLAPSE of 7 WTC. You can't just decide it was a CD and then claim to have seen it. You didn't see or hear any explosions on CBS did you ?

The Tooth Fairy does not exist. And neither do buildings that fall just like controlled demolitions that aren't controlled demolitions.

A question, Galileo, though I'm sure you're going to ignore it just like every truther has ignored it the other times I've asked it: how many skyscrapers did you see collapse that were not controlled demolitiont ? If your answer is "none", how could you possibly know how it looks, and if it doesn't look pretty much like a CD ?

Furthermore, how can you have a CD without explosive charges ? And how can you plant said charges in a flaming, damaged building and still ensure a successful operation ?

Ask a scientist.

You should follow your own advice.

If buildings fall just controlled demolitions, and millions of people see the building fall just like contolled demolitions, then you have a controlled demolition.

Truth is not a matter of democracy, Galileo. If you'd have asked the people's opinion back in the 1300s, the Earth would have been declared flat. In fact, it was.

There are people on the net that have a desire for order, and if the government lied to them, that would be disorder.

I agree. If.

For the rest of us, we will continue to live in reality while those with vivid imaginations carry on!

That's actually not far from the truth, in the sense that the truther's lack of imagination usually results in the crux of his case: the argument from incredulity.

 

[jaydeehess]

Belz writes:

That's actually not far from the truth, in the sense that the truther's lack of imagination usually results in the crux of his case: the argument from incredulity.

Oh , I'd have to give at least some truthers credit for vivid imagination.

Those such as Lyte who can take 3 guys saying a plane was in a general area and ONE person who says it rose up at least at one point and then create an entire senario from that despite no actual evidence of that happening,
OR with no actual direct evidence (explosions , flashes etc.) people can construct a senario in which WTC 7, a building severely damaged by falling dense debris and on fire for half a day, being brought down by explosives.

I, and most here I'd wager, believe that the term "truther" as commonly used, is ironic at best and a corruption of the word "truth" more likely.
In fact as Belz points out the "truther" is more interested in stretching facts and opions to be able to shoehorn them into his prejudiced opion of what happened rather than a objective search for the real truth.
Problem is a "truther" cannot stand to have anything unanswered and therefore must invent senarios to 'explain' every detail even if the senarios created start to contradict each other.

 

[Belz...]

In fact as Belz points out the "truther" is more interested in stretching facts and opions to be able to shoehorn them into his prejudiced opion of what happened rather than a objective search for the real truth.

It IS a religious thing for them. And you know what they say,

"Religion is the opion of the people"

 

[Christopher7]

Who changed the subject?

Why have you gone quiet on Barry Jennings testimony?

If anyone is avoiding stuff, it is you on this subject?

I have made my position clear in previous posts.


Both Barry and Michael said they "made it to - walked down to, the 8th floor".

"Blew us back into the 8th floor" was obviously an overstatement as it would have required blowing them both thru a closed fire door.

He probably meant the 8th floor landing IMO.

In any case, i'm goin' with the 8th floor and i'm not believin' anything after "We reached the 8th, or the 6th floor ........" without solid confirmation.

Even more troubling is the direct contradiction.
"Blew us back into the 8th floor."
and
"There was an explosion and the landing gave way. I was left there hanging. I had to climb back up, and now i had to walk back up to the 8th floor."


Did you read the rest of the post?
Did you comprehend that there is no evidence to support the official hypothesis?

 

[funk de fino]

I have made my position clear in previous posts.


Both Barry and Michael said they "made it to - walked down to, the 8th floor".

"Blew us back into the 8th floor" was obviously an overstatement as it would have required blowing them both thru a closed fire door.

He probably meant the 8th floor landing IMO.

In any case, i'm goin' with the 8th floor and i'm not believin' anything after "We reached the 8th, or the 6th floor ........" without solid confirmation.

Even more troubling is the direct contradiction.
"Blew us back into the 8th floor."
and
"There was an explosion and the landing gave way. I was left there hanging. I had to climb back up, and now i had to walk back up to the 8th floor."


Did you read the rest of the post?
Did you comprehend that there is no evidence to support the official hypothesis?

OK so his testimonies are contradictory and as such have to be disregarded. I believe that Loose Change are to use his latest statements? I will wait till then till I make proper judgement on whether he is mistaken.

He does say he was pulled out a hole in the wall by the FR though and that the lobby was trashed, how is this? When was he pulled out? Before the collapse of one of the twins or after? Was the lobby trashed by the twin or the explosion he experienced?

As for the rest of the post, I believe the damage from the twin and the fires brought the building down. I do not know this but it is a logical belief based on what I have seen so far until I can read the official report. Nothing else supports CD IMO.

 

[jaydeehess]

The Tooth Fairy does not exist.

Well at least two of the definate indicators of the tooth fairy's existance are there for all to see.
1) Children do lose teeth
2) When wrapped in paper and placed under their pillow at night the tooth is replaced with money by morning.
The tooth fairy is very secretive though so it is of course of no great significance that no one has ever witnessed the tooth fairy actually removing the tooth from under the pillow and replacing it with money.

 

[jaydeehess]

Chris, I listened to the man relate what happened. It is pretty obvious that he stumbled over his own words a bit due to the adrenaline of the day. He started to say that he made it down to the 8th floor then corrected himself and said they made it to the 6th floor but had to go up and onto the 8th floor. In his excitement he got ahead of himself and said 8th first.

"Blew us back to the 8th floor" is very likely exaggeration or hyperbole, again, the man is very excited at this time.

"There was an explosion and the landing gave way. I was left there hanging. I had to climb back up, and now I had to walk back up to the 8th floor."
This indicates that they were not literally blown back as does the fact that his clothing is in pretty good shape, as is he. The fact that he is in good shape also indicates that what he describes as an "explosion" was not in fact what one would characterize as something powerful enough to destroy a fire exit stairway.

Given his level of excitement and the obvious other exaggeration/hyperbole he uses in this clip one simply has to question his words that suggest that the stairwell was physically damaged due to an explosion.

NIST says they made it to the 8th floor, Jennings says clearly, the 6th floor. It only makes a great difference if one is attempting to show that explosives were on the 8th floor. A slight mistake in NIST then is inconsequential to NIST but you truly desire the floor number to be the 8th, so it is of great consequence to your contentions. However, Barry does state 6th floor. Too bad for you Chris.

You also went to great pains to have this ocurring on the west end of the building and now, as before, there are others saying that no, it was at the east end of the building. That is bad for your contention as well since if indeed there was damage to the stairwell and/or the elevator shaft at the east end then that is suggestive that there was core damage by the debris. Too bad again for you Chris.

What he is very unlikely to be mistaken about is that the OEM was empty when they got there. The OEM was ordered evacuated at 9:44. It would take a few minutes for everyone to leave. They were not running for their lives, there was no obvious immediate threat. It was simply deemed prudent to remove themselves from the area surrounding the WTC towers, the site not only of two large, heavily damaged and burning buildings, but also the site of two terrorist attacks that morning.

Let's say that Hess and Jennings showed up there at 9:45 and looked out to see both towers still standing then started down the stairs soon after that(time to look around, say "WTF no one's here", get a call from someone else who says for them to leave). They have less than 20 minutes from that time to the fall of WTC 2. Less than 20 minutes to walk (he never says they ran) but only 20 minutes if they were at the OEM within seconds of the last person in the OEM leaving, AND if everyone in the OEM immediatly and quickly left the office, so it is probable that they had quite a bit less than 20 minutes.

This means that given the information we have or can deduce logically, that Jennings and Hess were in the stairwell when WTC 2 fell. We know for definate fact that WTC 7 was heavily involved with the dust cloud and that the building did suffer at least superficial damage due to the debris from WTC 2.

Half an hour later WTC 1 fell. No matter how you set the timeline, Hess and Jennings were in WTC 7 when WTC 1 fell. they were after all there from sometime after 9:44 and for at least an hour and a half after that.

Possible but somewhat less so is that Jennings was mistaken when he said both towers were still standing when they looked out before going down the stairs. In this case they could easily have been in the stairwell when WTC 1 fell rather than 25 minutes earlier when WTC 2 fell.

If everyone ran out of the OEM, and if H&J ran down the stairs, and H&J ran back up to the 8th floor, and they ran into an office to break a window and call for help, and get someone's attention immediately, they just might have been able to do all of this before WTC 2 fell. It is highly unlikely that it played out so hyper-frantically though and it would mean that WTC 2 fell at about the same time that H&J were at the window.

 

[jaydeehess]

It IS a religious thing for them. And you know what they say,

"Religion is the opion of the people"

Perhaps I am a socialist and didn't know it and this came out in a Freudian slip.

 

[Christopher7]

OK so his testimonies are contradictory and as such have to be disregarded.

No, on 911 both Barry and Michael said they "made it to - walked down to, the 8th floor and there was an explosion".
These statements should be considered valid.

He does say he was pulled out a hole in the wall by the FR though and that the lobby was trashed, how is this? When was he pulled out? Before the collapse of one of the twins or after? Was the lobby trashed by the twin or the explosion he experienced?

Because of the conflict of statements, everything he said in the 2007 statements should not considered valid without confirmation from another source. IMO

As for the rest of the post, I believe the damage from the twin and the fires brought the building down. I do not know this but it is a logical belief based on what I have seen so far until I can read the official report. Nothing else supports CD IMO.

Apx. L is an official report.

It does not say WTC 7 collapsed due to fire.

There is no evidence to support the official hypothesis.

They had two years to gather the evidence.

The progression of the fires is well documented.

They have photos of the south west side of WTC 7.

If there was significant damage to that area, they would have said so.

What have you seen so far that makes you believe WTC 7 collapsed due to DD/F?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Enjoy preying on the fact that the report has not been released. Milk it while you can.

 

[Christopher7]

Chris, I listened to the man relate what happened. It is pretty obvious that he stumbled over his own words a bit due to the adrenaline of the day. He started to say that he made it down to the 8th floor then corrected himself and said they made it to the 6th floor but had to go up and onto the 8th floor. In his excitement he got ahead of himself and said 8th first.

You are ignoring the statement by Michael Hess. The two statements are mutually supporting. Michael was not as rattled as Barry, and there is no reason to doubt his statement.

"Blew us back to the 8th floor" is very likely exaggeration or hyperbole, again, the man is very excited at this time.

Agreed

"There was an explosion and the landing gave way. I was left there hanging. I had to climb back up, and now I had to walk back up to the 8th floor."

This is in conflict with the statements both men made on 911.
Everything in that interview should be taken with a grain of salt until there is confirmation from another source. IMO

NIST says they made it to the 8th floor, Jennings says clearly, the 6th floor. It only makes a great difference if one is attempting to show that explosives were on the 8th floor. A slight mistake in NIST then is inconsequential to NIST but you truly desire the floor number to be the 8th,

Wrong

On 911, they both said the 8th floor.

The elevators were in the hallway on the 8th floor.

You also went to great pains to have this ocurring on the west end of the building and now, as before, there are others saying that no, it was at the east end of the building.

Great pains? Wrong

It is no great leap of logic then to assume that the damage to the SW corner caused the damage to the western stairwell (I knew we had deduced it was the west side before but I wanted you to say it Chris)

We are not certain, it's just a reasonable deduction.

You were the one who deduced that it was the west stairwell.
I agreed that it was a reasonable deduction based on these statements:

NIST: "Cubicle fire was seen along west wall on Floor 7 just before leaving"
This report was probably made by the firefighters who led the person on floor 7 out of the building.

NIST: "No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left Floor 8"
This report was no doubt made by the firefighters who rescued Michael and Barry and reported the elevators in the hallway north of the elevator shaft, on floor 8.

Now you are saying it was the east stairwell.

The truth is, YOU DON'T KNOW!

 

[twinstead]

The truth is, YOU DON'T KNOW!

That makes two of you. The difference is that you are certain about something you cannot know, and use that dubious certainty as evidence of CD of WTC7