The unsolved problem of "free will"

[Tricky]

Hard to understand why anyone doubts the importance of finding out the nature of human freedom. The example given above, that one can enjoy the sunrise without understanding Copernicus, is true, but limited. Had the attitude expressed above prevailed historically, perhaps we would have no astronomy only appreciations of sunrises.

I am not willing to abandon the analysis of human freedom just because it might be difficult to understand.

I think it is important to understand how things work. Couching it in terms like "freedom" or "appreciating sunrises" doesn't add much, IMO. I am glad progress is being made in understanding how the brain works and I strongly encourage further progress. It is unimportant to me whether or not that understanding explains "free will", which is just a useful term. It is not a physical thing.

 

[The_Animus]

Maybe it's just me but I think an interesting topic of human behavior to look at concerning free will would be Addiction.

It doesn't really matter what addiction whether chemical or psychological.

But for the purpose of this post lets use a highly addictive drug such as nicotine in cigarettes. After having smoked them you now have a biological and psychological need for the drug. So the next time a physical or psychological craving hits you, there are two possibilities.

1. You continue to smoke
2. You don't.

Now you are predisposed to pick number 1 and as can be seen this is what usually happens. Nonetheless people do quit. But how? If there is no free will, no choice, and no I to make a choice, then how do we fight against what our biology and chemistry want? Why do some people continue to be addicted while others can quit? Why do some quit for a few months but ultimately end up an addict again?

Perhaps it is due to alternate wants conflicting with the addictive wants. Maybe you wish to quit for heath reasons, money reasons, or because friends or loved ones want you to quit. This results in a conflict and if your want to quit outweighs your addiction to continue then you stop.

But then this begs the question, who is assigning value to your different wants. Value for your health, versus value to your want of the nicotine. Who or what decides between the two?

 

[DanishDynamite]

This is the thread I was thinking of. I hope it was the right one. At the time, it was considered an interminably long thread--more recent threads may have changed that perception...

(It is also, of course, possible that I am thinking of the wrong thread. Any other veterans here, please correct me if I am wrong.)

The thread you are thinking of disappeared in the Great Forum Meltdown some 3 or 4 years ago, unfortunately. It was the thread where Win managed to turn BillyJoe to "the dark side", right?

 

[DanishDynamite]

Once again, I find the question of "free will" looses meaning when one realizes that the concept of "I" is also without real meaning.

 

[Fnord]

This thread belongs in the "Religion and Philosophy" section, itself under "General Topics".

I agree with TTCH - this thread does belong in "Religion and Philosophy" under "General Topics." You expressed the concept that nothing occurs by chance, and that it has all been pre-determined at the start of the universe, either by the physical laws laid down during the "Big Bang" or by God according to His plan.

The specific topic would then be titled "Predestination" or "Calvinism."

 

[cooper1958nc]

You are correct that legal issues involving addiction focus the inquiry into free choice. These have been some of the biggest cases in the legal system.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Anyone care to provide evidence that an "I" exists? Please also provide evidence.

 

[The_Animus]

"I think, therefor I am"

And Danish - who is it that is doubting there is an I?

In order to doubt there is an I, there has to be a doubter.

 

[DanishDynamite]

"I think, therefor I am"

And Danish - who is it that is doubting there is an I?

In order to doubt there is an I, there has to be a doubter.

My brain can think. Or so it claims.

My brain doubts that an "I" has any real meaning.

Before you ask what "My" means, it is just a way of refering to a particular item. The number "1A" would be as applicable.

 

[The_Animus]

So then is I not just a placeholder for "My brain" or "My consciousness"

It refers to the specific thoughts or feelings of your individual brain or consciousness as opposed to anything external to you.

 

[DanishDynamite]

So then is I not just a placeholder for "My brain" or "My consciousness".

Yes, it is a placeholder, exactly.

It refers to the specific thoughts or feelings of your individual brain or consciousness as opposed to anything external to you.

The "thoughts" and "feelings" are just physical actions happening in the 1A brain.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Once again, I find the question of "free will" looses meaning when one realizes that the concept of "I" is also without real meaning.

It is whatever was making a little joke...

I was just making a little joke. In my eyes you are Skinny-God (assisting while Ed-God is away) and therefore perfect in mind and body.

It is what tries not to blame the victims...

In general, I try not to blame the victims. But when the "victims" become vocal advocates of their cult, they receive the same derision as the masterminds.

It is what doesn't really understand...

Nice article.

Personally, I don't really understand why there is such reluctance to let Iraq go the way of Yugoslavia. Let the nation seperate into 3 countries. Yes I know that Turkey will be unhappy with a Kurdish state on its borders, but really, that problem seem miniscule compared with the attempt at keeping Iraq together.

It is what finds the question of free will losing meaning...

Once again, I find the question of "free will" looses meaning when one realizes that the concept of "I" is also without real meaning.

 

[The_Animus]

If it is a placeholder then it is synonymous with my brain, or my consciousness and therefor does have meaning. It is referring to your brain or consciousness and its mental processes.

Replacing the word my with another word doesn't change the meaning or make it any less significant. You are just making up a synonym. Either way you are still referring to your specific brain/consciousness. You are distinguishing between yours and someone else's or yours from some other external thing. You are not simply referring to the brain or a brain because that is not the same as your brain.

Thoughts and feelings are the function of a brain. But 'your' thoughts and feelings, while similar in nature to all other brains, are nonetheless different.

So yes, I does exist. I is specifically your brain and the mental processes which occur in it.

Edit: Excellent post Marquis de Carabas

 

[DanishDynamite]

If it is a placeholder then it is synonymous with my brain, or my consciousness and therefor does have meaning. It is referring to your brain or consciousness and its mental processes.

No. The 1A brain goes about its business just as all brains go about their business. The "I" is no more in the 1A brain than the "Dean" is in the hurricane.

Replacing the word my with another word doesn't change the meaning or make it any less significant. You are just making up a synonym. Either way you are still referring to your specific brain/consciousness. You are distinguishing between yours and someone else's or yours from some other external thing. You are not simply referring to the brain or a brain because that is not the same as your brain.

It is certainly meaninful to distiguish between the output from the 1A brain and output from other brains, yes.

Thoughts and feelings are the function of a brain. But 'your' thoughts and feelings, while similar in nature to all other brains, are nonetheless different.

The outputs are certainly different, yes.

So yes, I does exist. I is specifically your brain and the mental processes which occur in it.

"I" is not my brain. And the mental processes in the 1A brain are just physical actions.

 

[DanishDynamite]

It is whatever was making a little joke...



It is what tries not to blame the victims...



It is what doesn't really understand...



It is what finds the question of free will losing meaning...

The uses of "I" are according to convention. They are still just outputs of the 1A brain. Where is the "I"?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

The uses of "I" are according to convention.

Please point out to me the words in the posts I quoted which were not used according to convention. Yes, I is a placeholder for something we do not fully understand. What of it? It is a damned good thing perfect understanding is not a prerequisite for naming something, else we would all be mute.

 

[The_Animus]

Where is the "I"?

It's inside your skull. Remember that I is your brain and the mental processes associated with it. So where is I is asking where is your brain. In your skull.

If you would like you are more than welcome to replace I in your sentences with My brain and its associated mental processes.

As in: I understand physics.

My brain and its associated mental processes understand physics.

Or you can simply refer to it as my brain since the associated mental processes are a part of the brain rather than a separate entity.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Please point out to me the words in the posts I quoted which were not used according to convention. Yes, I is a placeholder for something we do not fully understand. What of it? It is a damned good thing perfect understanding is not a prerequisite for naming something, else we would all be mute.

Yes, they were used according to convention, which is what I said.

And, no, they were not placeholders for something we don't understand. Or rather, my point here is that they are simply placeholders and nothing more.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Yes, they were used according to convention, which is what I said.

You said the Is were. I asked about any words. They are all conventions. Discovering that I is merely a placeholder is not a startling insight into the nature of being. It is a banal insight into the nature of language.

 

[DanishDynamite]

It's inside your skull. Remember that I is your brain and the mental processes associated with it. So where is I is asking where is your brain. In your skull.

My brain is not what is usually referred to as "I".

If you would like you are more than welcome to replace I in your sentences with My brain and its associated mental processes.

Removing the brain, the "I" is indeed just a way of refering to a mental process, yes. Hence, asking whether "I" have free will is like asking whether a snap-shot of a given computer process has free will.

As in: I understand physics.

My brain and its associated mental processes understand physics.

Or you can simply refer to it as my brain since the associated mental processes are a part of the brain rather than a separate entity.

My Excel sheet understands addition. What of it?