Are there actually creationists who are scientists?

Elind, people like you who are against the general idea of ID, even divorced from god(s) hypotheses, keep wanting to revert to the 'who' question.

ID cannot be "divorced from god(s) hypotheses". ID is Creationism in disguise.

The question isn't who, it is 'if'.

This is the main reason why ID isn't science: ID'ers demand that we shouldn't look for a cause of X.

It is the equivalent of demanding that we shouldn't look for the cause of rain.

However, even if you allow for aliens to be a designer, you've allowed in at least one designer, thus accepting the general idea of ID.

But ID'ers don't "allow for aliens". The major proponents of ID all believe that the designer is the Christian God. As you do.

I'd think it is much more difficult to explain how matter literally can come from nothing, because you have to do that in a naturalistic framework. Where is your work on that? ;)

Another old, tired Creationist fallacy: That's abiogenesis, it has nothing to do with how species evolved.

Gee, can we get something new from the Creationists soon?
 
I'd think it is much more difficult to explain how matter literally can come from nothing ...
... and absolutely impossible to find someone who claims that it did.

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I'm preparing for a trip tomorrow, so time is limited for response for a day or so. I don't know where TChi gets the "who" from me. As far as the aliens are concerned, I have only one answer, and it's not original from me. It goes like this; "It's turtles all the way down".

As to something from nothing. I never said that. But I'll throw in the, to me, obvious retort that semantics won't get us THE answer, and "nothing" has absolutely NO meaning, logically or philosophically, without being said in conjunction with "something". Chicken and egg? This answers nothing at our present stage of comprehension, but semantic woo sure as hell doesn't cut it.

As to "random", I've tried in the last two posts to understand just what is being proposed with "random". I'm not sure I do yet. Seems to me that this is another misused semantic argument, never mind the understanding of statistics, and I'm no statistician.

We have had one word thrown out which perhaps suggests a clue. Stochastic.

Nothing, little, is truly random in the common usage sense. Everything relates to something else. Butterflies and all that.

Got to go now, but as an example I suggest the following example for discussion, when contemplating randomness as related to evolution.

The odds of throwing three 6 sixes in a row is one in 216

But the odds of throwing the third six after the first two is one in six.

We've had 4.5 billion years to throw the first two sixes. How strange is it then that we might see a new characteristic evolve in the third throw?
 
No one need listen to me, but could I make two requests, one general, one personal?

Could we abandon this word "random" as related to evolution because it is so politically charged? Yes, evolution is random technically, but as has been hashed and over-hashed, this carries with it other connotations.

Now for the personal one -- Articulett, could you please drop the "Mijo is a creationist" line and give the guy a break?

Can I say he communication style is Behe-esque?

Look, I have in on ignore, so I generally don't comment on his proclivities unless he's insulted me or others are drawn into his Behe spiral.
 
From mijo's posts, no reasonable person could infer what you inferred. Of course, a lot of people have inferred that,

And they are all "unreasonable" unlike you who is "reasonable", right? This is on par on those scientists "lying" about gaps while Behe isn't lying about anything.
 
Thanks...I have him on ignore, so I seldom have to read his quotes-- but that one made me giggle. Do you ever notice that when people use "honestly" in a sentence, they seldom are.
When I hear "to be honest...", I suspect dishonesty. It's kind of like how like if it has science in the title, it usually isn't (creation science, religious science, Scientology, etc.).

Doesn't he talk like Behe in hard to parse sentences with funny ways of using words to say nothing at all while inferring something smarmy?

Well, you have more experience with this issue than me, so to be fair I'll reserve my final judgment for a while, but I do recall recently being accused of "deliberately misrepresenting" something posted when only a disingenuous person would have said something like that. But perhaps it was one of those emotional slips we all have....?

As to the "ignore" option; I don't believe in it. Tried it once when we used to have some really nasty pieces of work here, but it still felt like a lobotomy.

Can't tune out life.
 
Well, you have more experience with this issue than me, so to be fair I'll reserve my final judgment for a while, but I do recall recently being accused of "deliberately misrepresenting" something posted when only a disingenuous person would have said something like that. But perhaps it was one of those emotional slips we all have....?

As to the "ignore" option; I don't believe in it. Tried it once when we used to have some really nasty pieces of work here, but it still felt like a lobotomy.

Can't tune out life.

Here's the exchange in To the Christians .. why do you come on here? where I accused you of "deliberately misrepresenting" me.

qayak-

Is the central tenet of supernaturalism (i.e., there exists something that is not subject to the natural laws of the universe) a scientifically testable claim if science take as its foundational assumption that most, if not all, things are subject to the natural laws of the universe?

Simply saying that something is not subject to the natural laws (testable) is a pretty weak, if not pitiful, claim for special privileges.

I'm sorry but I don't have a lot of patience for people who deliberately misrepresent what I am saying.

I never said that religion should enjoy any special respect because its claim are untestable and therefore unfalsifiable. I was just distinguishing it from woo, which by and large makes falsifiable (and falsified) claims. Therefore, religion is not by definition woo, even though many religious people may believe in woo things.

Would you care to explain how you you feel that comment you made in response to my question about the difference between woo and religion translate to a "claim of special privileges"?
 
And they are all "unreasonable" unlike you who is "reasonable", right?

Yes.

This is on par on those scientists "lying" about gaps while Behe isn't lying about anything.

If they say that there are papers that describe detailed evolutionary pathways, they are not telling the truth. Furthermore, if they are familiar with the literature, then they have enough information available to them to know that they are not telling the truth.

Is that necessarily a lie? You decide. Make sure you apply the same standards you would to a creationist.
 
Can I say he communication style is Behe-esque?

Look, I have in on ignore, so I generally don't comment on his proclivities unless he's insulted me or others are drawn into his Behe spiral.

Except that usually turnS out to be every thread in which I post in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology and Religion and Philosophy fora. I am not claiming that she is stalking me, but I am mentioning this because the above comment makes it sound as if her calling me a "creationist" or "religious apologist" is an infrequent occurrence. Every time I say something that opposes her worldview, which is quite often because there are an awful lot of unsupportable claims about randomness or religion, it's "creationist" this and "religious apologist" that.
 
As to "random", I've tried in the last two posts to understand just what is being proposed with "random". I'm not sure I do yet.

In order to understand what is being proposed, all you have to do is stop trying to understand what is being proposed, and just read it.

He is proposing stochastic. Nothing more. Nothing less. The specific phrase (let's see if I get it right. I'm not going to look it up, but I've read it often enough) is "of or being described by a probability distribution function."

He is proposing absolutely nothing more, nor less, than that. Can evolution be described with probability distribution functions? Yes. Can natural selection be described with probability distribution functions? Yes. There it is. Done.

No implications. No philosophy. No religion, creationism, design. No nothing. That's it.

Do biologists describe it that way? Some do. Many don't. And, most importantly, why does it matter? We know what he means, and if he is a bit eccentric in his characterizations, so be it.


That's where I become interested. It's not good enough to assume that his characterizations are odd, or out of the mainstream, or not very illuminating. That's not good enough. Since he continues to use language that isn't in the approved word list, there's this curiousity about what he "really" means by that. Maybe, some people speculate, he is lying.

That's ridiculous. Usually, when people tell you they believe something, they are telling the truth. He believes that evolution is random. Not that it matters, but by the definition he is using, he happens to be correct, but that really isn't important. The important thing is that he is not a creationist. How do I know that? Because he says so.

Generalizing this to the the general topic of this thread, it is dangerous to read anything into someone's position beyond what they say. You cannot infer that someone is a lousy scientist if they happen to be a creationist. If someone says they are not a creationist, that probably means they are not a creationist. There might be a little bit of ambiguity in definitions, as in whether someone can believe in the theory of common descent and/or evolution and still be a creationist, but there's no reason to believe that anyone is lying about his beliefs.

Articulett says that mijo and Behe have a lot in common. I disagree. I do, however, think they have something in common. Both are accused of lying, even though there's no reason to believe they are anything but honest.
 
Yes.



If they say that there are papers that describe detailed evolutionary pathways, they are not telling the truth. Furthermore, if they are familiar with the literature, then they have enough information available to them to know that they are not telling the truth.

Is that necessarily a lie? You decide. Make sure you apply the same standards you would to a creationist.

We are talking about hypothetical scientists. I think we've shown that scientists have, indeed, a good explanation for the things both you and Behe claimed they don't understand. And Behe is dishonest. I didn't call him a liar-- but on the scales of dishonesty-- he leans towards the liar for implying that some things are "irreducibly complex" which infers that it couldn't have evolved without "help"... The scientists you accuse of lying are so far hypothetical. We have no statements to examine. And Behe's statements are all over the place. His goal is to keep people from understanding exactly what it is scientists do understand. You seem to have similar goals. In fact, you see to have a decided lack of curiosity towards the information you claim not to understand.

And from where I sit--it's you who is unreasonable and mealy mouthed in your various justifications as to what is and isn't a lie. Behe-esque, I'd say.
 
Care to explain this?

Sure. I didn't call him a liar. Semantics. Saying Behe lies is not the same as calling Behe a liar. Nice diversion for avoiding the fact that you called scientists liars while pulling every semantic trick in the book to keep Behe as being one.

I don't know if I'd call Behe a liar-- that makes it sound so intentional... and I don't know what sort of denying goes on in his head. He's dishonest... as dishonest as Sylvia Browne from my perspective. And you are similar --you both ouse words and avoid certain topics that so you can just stop short of being called liars. Mijo too. And John Hewitt You infer that you are morally superior or reasonable or scientifically rigorous just like Behe.... you dodge and weave and avoid the pointed questions. You obfuscate with semantics and then you cast aspersions on others to avoid having the light shone on you. You use words to confuse more than clarify and never really offer information of value--just smokescreens and gobbledy gook so you can infer that scientists are bad and religion/Behe/creationists/you are good.

Care to explain why you call scientists liars while bending over backwards to defend Behe and make sure that no one calls him one?

I thought not.
 
Sure. I didn't call him a liar.

I'm sorry, buy you did:

When I call someone a liar, I use that word... and I mean they are stating something as factual when the evidence is contrary. I don't consider Ken Miller a liar, a woo, or a creationist. Behe, is all 3. But these are opinion words... not fact words. You apologists confuse the two a lot. I suspect religious meme infection for your inability to see your failure to distinguish.

Guess that makes you a liar too.
 
For anyone who wants to repost this for articulett's benefit, seeing how has me on ignore, here is the unparsed text:

[QUOTE="articulett, post: 2882925, member: 4130"]Sure. I didn't call him a liar. [/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, buy you did:

[QUOTE="articulett, post: 2876909, member: 4130"][B]When I call someone a liar, I use that word... and I mean they are stating something as factual when the evidence is contrary. I don't consider Ken Miller a liar, a woo, or a creationist. [COLOR="Red"]Behe, is all 3.[/COLOR][/B] But these are opinion words... not fact words. You apologists confuse the two a lot. I suspect religious meme infection for your inability to see your failure to distinguish.[/QUOTE]

Guess that makes you a liar too.

Just remove the the [noparse] tags and the quotes will reappear as quotes.
 
In order to understand what is being proposed, all you have to do is stop trying to understand what is being proposed, and just read it.

He is proposing stochastic. Nothing more. Nothing less. The specific phrase (let's see if I get it right. I'm not going to look it up, but I've read it often enough) is "of or being described by a probability distribution function."

He is proposing absolutely nothing more, nor less, than that. Can evolution be described with probability distribution functions? Yes. Can natural selection be described with probability distribution functions? Yes. There it is. Done.

No implications. No philosophy. No religion, creationism, design. No nothing. That's it.

Do biologists describe it that way? Some do. Many don't. And, most importantly, why does it matter? We know what he means, and if he is a bit eccentric in his characterizations, so be it.


That's where I become interested. It's not good enough to assume that his characterizations are odd, or out of the mainstream, or not very illuminating. That's not good enough. Since he continues to use language that isn't in the approved word list, there's this curiousity about what he "really" means by that. Maybe, some people speculate, he is lying.

That's ridiculous. Usually, when people tell you they believe something, they are telling the truth. He believes that evolution is random. Not that it matters, but by the definition he is using, he happens to be correct, but that really isn't important. The important thing is that he is not a creationist. How do I know that? Because he says so.

Generalizing this to the the general topic of this thread, it is dangerous to read anything into someone's position beyond what they say. You cannot infer that someone is a lousy scientist if they happen to be a creationist. If someone says they are not a creationist, that probably means they are not a creationist. There might be a little bit of ambiguity in definitions, as in whether someone can believe in the theory of common descent and/or evolution and still be a creationist, but there's no reason to believe that anyone is lying about his beliefs.

Articulett says that mijo and Behe have a lot in common. I disagree. I do, however, think they have something in common. Both are accused of lying, even though there's no reason to believe they are anything but honest.

May I offer another persepctive (because, while I think you started out fine, I also think there is some misrepresentation in what you wrote above)?

What I specifically object to in your above post is the idea of there being an approved word list. I do not agree. I think there are ways of facilitating communication and ways of throwing up road blocks.

We use words and words carry many connotations. The word "random" has many meanings to many people and when it comes to teaching evolution to children it is not a particularly good word to use because of these connotations.

IIRC the technical use of the word "random" was introduced into these discussions not by Mijo but by Walter Wayne (I seem to recall someone else pushing the idea too but can't remember who). Walter was very specific about its use as a technical term. I don't think anyone really disgrees with his points. The only potential problem is that when it comes to using this word out there, in the real world, most folks don't know this technical definition. They, therefore, would get an entirely wrong impression from any discussion about evolution being random unless you were to be very precise and explicit in your use of the word "random".

Mijo started his thread not with the question, "what is random?" but with the question, "How is evolution non-random?" or more precisely, "What is the evidence that evolution is non-random?".

The discussion, properly speaking, then was not about "random" but "non-random". I did not follow every bit of that discussion, but it seemed fairly clear to me (and please correct me if I am wrong here) that Mijo's particular use of the word "non-random" was as a synonym for "determined". But that is not how we use the word "non-random" in common speech. I, for one, view "determined" to be a special subset of "non-random". Non-random seems to mean, at least from the usage I have seen, any process that further limits the probability distribution we see in a random process (and to forestall the other discussion I am very well aware that random processes are limited to begin with -- non-random refers to further limitations on random outcomes).

In that sense, natural selection is non-random because it limits outcome probabilities. The outcomes are not absolutely determined in almost every instance, so evolution is still random in the technical sense. But to tell people that evolution is random and leave out the non-random aspects of natural selection in that discussion would be a gross misrepresentation of the evolutionary process. As far as I can tell, that is the real objection to the use of the word "random" in this discussion.

When we use words in non-traditional ways (using "random" in its technical sense is non-traditional) and other people do not know the technical definitions used, this creates a block to communication. This is not an issue of "words on an approved or non-approved list" but of proper communication. I think most people would agree that evolution meets the definition of "random" when narrowly defined and used in this technical sense. I think most educators who work in the real world, however, would object vociferously to describing evolution as random simply because the word out there means many, many more things and carries connotations that the technical definition does not imply.

The rest seems to be a major personality conflict.

ETA
The further point is that some folks seemed to imply that "random" in the previous discussions tells us something about the nature of reality. It does not. Ultimately the universe is deterministic or indeterministic. If it is deterministic, then evolution is deterministic and "random" is just a garbage term to describe our ignorance. If it is all indeterministic, then everything is "random", so its use is meaningless and it does no good to discuss evolution as random.
 
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Ichneumonwasp-

There was lead up to What evidence is there for evolution being non-random?, specifically Split from: I'm reading "The God Delusion" - a review in progress and Evolution: Technically Random?. In those threads there was a lot of discussion about the definition of "random", and those who advocated calling evolution "random" made it very clear that they were referring to evolution as "random" only in so far as "random" means "[o]f or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution". There proposition was still rejected and the proposers were accused of rejecting evolution. Furthermore, changing the vocabulary from "random" to "probabilistic" or "stochastic" was also rejected and the "creationist" accusations continues. Thus, it does seem to me and others that there is an "approved word list" that "true evolutionists" use and people who refuse to use the terms are labeled "creationists".
 
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There was lead up to What evidence is there for evolution being non-random?, specifically Split from: I'm reading "The God Delusion" - a review in progress and Evolution: Technically Random?. In those threads there was a lot of discussion about the definition of "random", and those who advocated calling evolution "random" made it very clear that they were referring to evolution as "random" only in so far as "random" means "[o]f or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution".

I'm well aware of that having been involved in some of the discussions in both those threads. That is why I mentioned up above that Walter Wayne introduced the idea in the first place. From what I recall he was the orignator of it and he was very clear about how it should be used. His perspective seems to be that everyone should learn the technical definition. I think you would probably agree. I am fully behind anyone that wants to push that idea -- teaching the technical definition of "random".

There proposition was still rejected and the proposers were accused of rejecting evolution. Furthermore, changing the vocabulary from "random" to "probabilistic" or "stochastic" was also rejected and the "creationist" accusations continues. Thus, it does seem to me and others that there is an "approved word list" that "true evolutionists" use and people who refuse to use the terms are labeled "creationists".

I am not going to comment on anyone who rejects the technical definition of "random". I suspect the reason behind it is more pedagogical (though it may be personal). I will comment on the fact that very few people completely reject that technical definition (if any).

What they rejected was the blanket statement, that from what I can tell they thought was unqualified, "evolution is random" when it clearly involves non-random elements. Unless I seriously misread him that is Paul's position and I think Articulett's as well. I'm just assuming here, but I think that Articulett is so opposed to the use of that term for pedagogical reasons.

Much of this simply depends on one's perspective. From the outside and from close up, it is very clear that evolution fits the technical definition of "random" (and as I mentioned more than once to Walter Wayne and to you, I'm all for you guys explaining that technical definition if that is what you want to do). This is especially true if you look at evolution from relatively close up -- we find it difficult to predict what organisms are going to survive. But Paul makes a very good point that if you look at evolution from a great distance then it is firmly deterministic -- only the most adapted organisms survive. "Adapted organism" is, however, a lumped term. It is a sort of statistical abstraction. But, from that perspective, it is true that there is only one type of organism that will leave behind its genes and that is the type that is most adapted to its environment. Granted, the whole idea of an adapted organism is "those organisms that leave behind the most babies" so that this ends up turning into a truism -- the most adapted organisms survive because they are the most adapted organisms. But that's what natural selection is all about. It is a truism.
 

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