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Why aren't the WTC tower construction drawings publicly available?

You conveniently left out the video showing the bowing which I asked you about. Having trouble finding one

Well that seems a bit rich given that you conveniently left out a response to my detailed post on the extent and scope of construction-level drawings, and why they may (or may not) be of relevance to the debate at hand.

Do you (in)tend responding at some juncture?
 
Well that seems a bit rich given that you conveniently left out a response to my detailed post on the extent and scope of construction-level drawings, and why they may (or may not) be of relevance to the debate at hand.

Do you (in)tend responding at some juncture?

I wasn't debating you and the shear number of individuals frequenting this site who accept the present U.S. government explanation, for the 3 high rise collapses in NYC on Sept. 11, 2001, and thus with whom I differ on this issue, may preclude one from getting back to everyone.

I am sorry if I can't engage everyone all of the time. I will take a closer look at your argument and respond.
 
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Catching up on post-sick leave work, hence the relative silence from this source.

Firstly let me clarify the ownership of designers' drawings; in general, ownership and copyright remain with the originator and the commissioning client is licenced to use it for purposes resonably connected thereto. This would include, in my professional opinion, an investigation into structural failure but might not necessarily extend to publication of (say) the detailed drawings or specifications themselves.

In the UK, drawings submitted for statutory consents (notably planning permission and building warrant) will be held on file for a considerable period. Planning drawings are subject to public consultation and hence accessible to all and sundry, however they also tend to be rather outline (RIBA stage C or D normally) and hence of little relevance here.

There is something of a debate regarding access to Building Warrant here under the terms of the various UK FoI legislation and which has yet to be resolved, a process I am involved with on behalf of my professional institute, and for what it's worth I believe local authorities will eventually be obliged to provide public access saving for where there are security considerations. Nevertheless it is important for those of you outwith the construction industry to understand that even Warrant drawings contain less detail than you would expect (RIBA stage D or E, depending upon project type).

In fact there are two sets of drawings which we would have to examine; what's called "Production Information" in the UK (RIBA stage F/G/H) and the "As Built" (stage K/L) drawings as an earlier poster noted. Even on a small project (say £5m) these will run into hundreds covering everything from general arrangement of steelwork, steelwork fabrication, firework, servicing, linings and partitions, and servicing. Do not underestimate their complexity. Our ISO 9001 QA system has an entire manual devoted to how we manage such information amongst a multi-disciplinary design team, never mind how they are developed.

This is before we even get to the specifcation and other contract documents, or performance specification/contractor-designed items.

It would be surprising in the extreme if an archive set of this information was not available to the architects, etc. today. I am mindful, however, that there may be questions over the extent of material archived (in the UK we generally prune files heavily after 10 or 12 years, depending upon legislative regime and liability periods) and longevity of storage medium (microfiche was, of course, popular in the 60s and 70s but has marked shortcomings). Therefore the question as to what Robertson might have been able to make available is more difficult than might be thought.

Now consider a scenario where the drawings are released. We might have the architect's general arragement (GA) drawings, which are no more than a broad schematic. For steelwork we'll have to trawls through hundreds of structural drawings (and calcs). But fireproofing will be dealt with seperately, either by the architect or more probably a specialist sub-consultant. Then suppose that we want to look at how ventilation ducts might have served as a fire path. Out with the mech-eng drawings. But the fire proofing for this may be somewhere else........etc etc.

In short, forensic analysis of construction drawings is hard. Ask any solicitor who's been involved in a professional liability claim for a complex large-scale problem. Conclusions can only be drawn after rigorous expert scrutiny.

As for CAD conversion of drawings, the simple answer is that we'd only do it where we strictly needed to, for example if further work was being carried out and even then only to the location required. Like other posters, we still use hand-drawings rather a lot (ahh, the joy of watching your last Rotring Isograph 0.18 nib break at 7pm on a Sunday night.......)

I agree that there would be very little reason to convert the Twin Tower detail and assembly drawings to CAD. The drawings could be scanned for making them available electronically. Of course forensic analysis using construction drawings is time consuming, tedious, and requires experience to perform. However, it is done in important cases all the time. We also seem to agree that absent security considerations that public disclosure would be required in a catastrophy.
 
You answered right about the dry vs. moist air question. I only asked to see if they would answer a technical question.

Yes, I believe that if a collapse could have even occurred due to fire weakening, and the impulsive load was 2G's or less, the collapse would have arrested. What do you think the impulsive load was? Please show some rough calculations if you can. I'm not asking to trick you or trying to be a smart alec I would just like to have a sound discussion of the mechanics which would have been taking place in the collapse. The buildings were only supporting 33% of their capacity on a low wind day with no earthquakes. However, that isn't the whole story as the factors of safety were different concerning gravity only for the core and perimeter. The central core columns had a minimum factor of safety of 1.67 and supported 60% of the gravity load, the perimeter columns had a factor of safety of 5.00 when considering gravity only and handled 40% of the gravity load.

I think that you are making some errors with your assumption that the lower half of the building would be able to arrest the upper half of the building at ANY load including 1G, though I will use 2G as the assumed lower bound for the load:

Case 1 - Load is 2G
This requires a deflection of 40ft by your calculations. This brings up a significant issue. How do sheared columns line up with each when the top section falls onto the bottom section and then continue to line up with each other over this huge deflection? I am not the person to discus safety factors, but the columns have to line up for this safety factor to even come into play. Even if the columns do line up you have to assume that they don't undergo plastic deformation and loose any of their structural integrity over 40ft of deflection.

Case 2 - Load is 39G
This has a much smaller deflection and it is possible to imagine that the columns will line up for some part of the deceleration (they would have to given the huge loss of momentum) but this load is way too large for the structure to handle.

The answer is somewhere in between, but it is unlikely that you will find a happy medium where the building is arrested.

Kage
 
Minor nitpick, but the word is 'catastrophe'. It's not a prize given to felines.

Pet peeve, please continue.

On topic, the reason these structural drawings wouldn't become an issue is because nobody who actually knows much about demolitions sees any evidence of demolitions, amateur or professional, being used in 9/11. Truthers only have Jowenko, a foreign demolitions expert, who was shown very tightly controlled footage of WTC7, without audio, and who was basically coerced into claiming it looked like CD. Throughout the world, military and civilian demo experts alike agree that the WTC complex's destruction had nothing to do with controlled demolition. So there's no more reason to investigate the structural information for evidence of demolition than there is to investigate the effects of the towers being hit by the Queen Elizabeth II. The thought is absurd, and they have much better things to do with their time.
 
I think that you are making some errors with your assumption that the lower half of the building would be able to arrest the upper half of the building at ANY load including 1G, though I will use 2G as the assumed lower bound for the load:

Case 1 - Load is 2G
This requires a deflection of 40ft by your calculations. This brings up a significant issue. How do sheared columns line up with each when the top section falls onto the bottom section and then continue to line up with each other over this huge deflection? I am not the person to discus safety factors, but the columns have to line up for this safety factor to even come into play. Even if the columns do line up you have to assume that they don't undergo plastic deformation and loose any of their structural integrity over 40ft of deflection.

Case 2 - Load is 39G
This has a much smaller deflection and it is possible to imagine that the columns will line up for some part of the deceleration (they would have to given the huge loss of momentum) but this load is way too large for the structure to handle.

The answer is somewhere in between, but it is unlikely that you will find a happy medium where the building is arrested.

Kage

I am not saying the deflection needs to be 40 feet to have a 2G or lower impulse. I am saying that the North Tower collapse appears to have a 40 foot or more deflection. The velocity shock equation is G = 2 x drop height/deflection so for a given unimpeded drop height to have a 2G impulse the deflection needs to be half of the drop height. We certainly see the deflection being at least half of the drop height. In fact, the deflection in these cases appears to be the same as the drop height. In that case, the impulse would be 1G with no amplification.

The remaining columns, which weren't sheared off is what was supporting the tower after the impacts and that is what would be considered when calculating any impulse. The sheared off columns would be removed and have no part in the calculation of the initial fall. The effect the sheared off columns did have was to lower the safety factor.

The collapse of the upper stories would not be considered a sudden load as it was being supported. It was not as if a giant 12 foot thick clever just sliced away one story allowing the upper block to then fall that distance unimpeded.
 
Minor nitpick, but the word is 'catastrophe'. It's not a prize given to felines.

Pet peeve, please continue.

On topic, the reason these structural drawings wouldn't become an issue is because nobody who actually knows much about demolitions sees any evidence of demolitions, amateur or professional, being used in 9/11. Truthers only have Jowenko, a foreign demolitions expert, who was shown very tightly controlled footage of WTC7, without audio, and who was basically coerced into claiming it looked like CD. Throughout the world, military and civilian demo experts alike agree that the WTC complex's destruction had nothing to do with controlled demolition. So there's no more reason to investigate the structural information for evidence of demolition than there is to investigate the effects of the towers being hit by the Queen Elizabeth II. The thought is absurd, and they have much better things to do with their time.

Shouldn't the firefighter's testimony about seeing, hearing, and feeling explosions been taken to mean that explosives could have been involved and testing for explosive residue been done? If not, why would someone object to that type of testing being done in an investigation of the building collapses, given this testimony from the firefighters?
 
Shouldn't the firefighter's testimony about seeing, hearing, and feeling explosions been taken to mean that explosives could have been involved and testing for explosive residue been done?

No. Because lots of things can be described as sounding like explosives. A small building collapsed here in Philly the other day and the witnesses said it 'sounded like a bomb'. In addition, many things in a fire can become bombs, such as tranformers and the like.

Adding to that, the idea that firefighters were hearing demolition explosives is absurd. Demo charges are very loud and would have been picked up by cameras miles away. No such explosisons were heard.

This means the only people who heard explosions were inside the building. The idea that someone could hear demo charges and still have time to escape the building is absurd.

Furthermore, there is absolutely no physical evidence to indicate that explosives were used! None! Cutting charges leave very distinct marks on the columns they cut. The charges also aren't just plopped in a hallway behind the copier paper. They have to be placed against support columns and then are boxed up. Even if you skip that step (whcih results in a lot wasted energy and a very distinct detonation) you still have miles of detcord to place.

If you were to walk around a building that has undergone demolition, you would see many indicators that explosives were used without any 'testing for residue'.
 
No. Because lots of things can be described as sounding like explosives. A small building collapsed here in Philly the other day and the witnesses said it 'sounded like a bomb'. In addition, many things in a fire can become bombs, such as tranformers and the like.

Adding to that, the idea that firefighters were hearing demolition explosives is absurd. Demo charges are very loud and would have been picked up by cameras miles away. No such explosisons were heard.

This means the only people who heard explosions were inside the building. The idea that someone could hear demo charges and still have time to escape the building is absurd.

Furthermore, there is absolutely no physical evidence to indicate that explosives were used! None! Cutting charges leave very distinct marks on the columns they cut. The charges also aren't just plopped in a hallway behind the copier paper. They have to be placed against support columns and then are boxed up. Even if you skip that step (whcih results in a lot wasted energy and a very distinct detonation) you still have miles of detcord to place.

If you were to walk around a building that has undergone demolition, you would see many indicators that explosives were used without any 'testing for residue'.


You really seem sure that there was no need to test for explosive residue. I wonder if you would say that to a firefighter who said he saw, heard, or felt an explosion(s) well below the aircraft impact areas. Why not do the testing and let it speak for itself? Usually when relatively inexpensive testing, considering the magnitude of the twin tower collapses, is resisted, it makes others think there is something to hide.

I don't understand your logic concerning your implication that the buildings would have had to collapse as soon as someone heard an explosion in one area of the building.

On the contrary, to what you say, there is structural evidence of highly focused energy on many core columns where the beam is bowed inward along the long edges of its cross section at the ends. A gravity collapse would be very unlikely to cause this type of local deformation on the ends only. However, an explosive blast can be shown to cause that type of damage in an experiment. These local deformations are distinct marks. As for detcord being needed, controlled demolitions are possible using radio control and no long detcord linking the explosives.
 
With resepct, RCDD, you haven't really grasped the points I made. What drawings do you believe will have survived, which ones would you wish made public, how would you overcome copyright issues, and to what extent would you (or the CD movement generally) be in a position to expertly interrogate any information so release?
 
You conveniently left out the video showing the bowing which I asked you about. Having trouble finding one?


Like all 9/11 deniers, your reality is limited to what's on YouTube. That's pathetic.

You make the claim that the perimeter columns in the North Tower were reported bowing 7 minutes before the collapse. If that is true we should see it on videos. I don't want to see photos. They don't prove a time frame prior to collapse, and could easily be taken as a still from the point just prior to collapse of the perimeter but after the central core had started to collapse.
False. Because you refuse to read the reports I have cited, you do not know that they show the progression of the fires, and of the bowing, from many angles, from many different cameras. You also don't know how NIST established the times these photos were taken, and what level of uncertainty they assign to those times.

Because you don't give a crap.

Why don't you give a crap, Mr. "Mechanical Engineer?"

Why do you try to argue a case about which you are completely uninformed, and refuse to become informed when you are constantly reminded of your ignorance?

You have a choice. You can behave like an adult or like a child. Which will it be?
 
For the names of firefighters who testified in the oral histories about seeing, hearing, and feeling explosives see Professor David Griffin's article "Explosive Testimony"
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060118104223192

and Professor Graeme Macqueen's article concerning the oral histories
http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/Article_5_118Witnesses_WorldTradeCenter.pdf

BTW, your sarcasm without any reasoning to go along with it doesn't qualify as legitimate argument.

How interesting. I asked you for the names of firefighters who claim there were explosives in the buildings. You give me two links which present no such names.

I ask you again: give me the name of a single firefighter who was there who claims there were explosives in the building.

Do it or admit that you can't.

To save you time, I suggest you read this:

What They Heard: WTC First Responder Accounts In & Around the Towers
 
No. Because lots of things can be described as sounding like explosives. A small building collapsed here in Philly the other day and the witnesses said it 'sounded like a bomb'. In addition, many things in a fire can become bombs, such as tranformers and the like.

<snip>

I wonder how many people who say something sounded like a bomb have actually heard explosives detonating (in real life, not on video). In my (very limited, I once saw a chimney demolished about 20 years ago) experience, the explosive charge sounded more like a sharp crack that a large bang.

Dave
 
With resepct, RCDD, you haven't really grasped the points I made. What drawings do you believe will have survived, which ones would you wish made public, how would you overcome copyright issues, and to what extent would you (or the CD movement generally) be in a position to expertly interrogate any information so release?

I think they all should have survived. In my work in Aerospace we occassionally use drawings from 40 and 50 years ago. They are kept in files and on microfilm in many cases. The Twin Tower drawings were extremely important and would not have been allowed to simply deteriorate. I also don't believe that the only copies of some of the drawings were kept in the Towers themselves.

I would like the detail and assembly/construction drawings to be made public.

In the past, catastrophic failure have led to public disclosure of the drawings. I used the Tacoma narrows bridge disaster as an example. This is done to allow a large number of people to help find a solution to prevent future failures for the general welfare. The U.S. Government could buy the copyright or even insist on disclosure for the general welfare.

If the drawings were made publicly available I would have to believe a large number of qualified engineers would be interested in taking a look at what the failure mechanisms would have to be to bring down the buildings.
 
How interesting. I asked you for the names of firefighters who claim there were explosives in the buildings. You give me two links which present no such names.

I ask you again: give me the name of a single firefighter who was there who claims there were explosives in the building.

Do it or admit that you can't.

To save you time, I suggest you read this:

What They Heard: WTC First Responder Accounts In & Around the Towers


Are you actually claiming that these articles don't provide names of firefighter's who said they saw, heard, or felt explosions in the towers before and during the collapse?

I really don't want to go round and round with these types of inanities.

If you can't produce a video which supports your claim of perimeter column bowing in the North Tower 7 minutes before the collapse I suggest you and I don't talk.

You won't get a video from NIST showing the bowing 7 minutes before the North Tower's collapse because it didn't happen. I think the 7 minute claim is bogus to try and make a case for their fire induced theory which they can't show can happen on a physical model. They and you can only produce pictures of the bowing. That is because it didn't happen until the central core collapsed first. They can't say the core collapsed first because they have no physical evidence of the core steel experiencing high temperatures.

As you feel free to call others pathetic along with other such adjectives and ad hominem, I feel free to say that you are one of the most abusive deceptive pathetic individuals I have ever had the opportunity to discuss anything with. I do prefer not to discuss anything with you and will not respond to any response by you to anything I have said on this or any other forum.
 
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Realcd:

Question about your CD theory. You never seem to want to answer the question of one column impacting another. Are you saying that all surviving columns on the top impacted all on the bottom at the same time and evenly? In order for your calculations to have any bearing this seems to be the case.
 
Good Question

Real you've raised a very valid question. Quite a bit of information out there which won't be given too independent professionals for whatever reason. Good luck trying too get any kind of educated response from these guys though. This website has more radical ideas about 9-11 than I have seen anywhere. They're actually prescribing too the official Government explanation as if the Government never lies. The documents won't be released because it would only fuel a movement which apposes the official account. There's a growing number of Demolition experts out there who would love too have there hands on such a document.


Real I wish you the best, this website for the most part is a waste of time though. There is always going too be a group of people unwilling too accept an alternative. I'm actually writing a book on this condition and its a disease which affects quite large portion of the population pertaining too any subject. 911 is just another example, the root runs much deeper and I don't have the time too write a few hundred pages on this forum too explain any further.
 

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