• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Global warming

I never questioned the coming Global Warming, you know, the one that is a fact, no doubt about it, it has been proven beyond all doubt, everybody agrees with, that Global Warming.

I never even thought about questioning it, looking into it, until I saw the religious like attacks on anyone who did question it. That got my attention. Why would anyone with a brain be so emotional, so irrational, so petty as to personally attack somebody for asking questions, or having a different view about Global Warming?

I'm funny that way, but when I see dumb behavior, stuff that makes no sense, I start wondering why. Why is questioning something viewed as heresy? How did a scientific Theory become the same as Church Doctrine? What the hell is going on when skeptics, logical, scientific people, start sounding like the faithful?

I agree utterly, robinson. It's frightens me. Whenever climate raises its head here, I have to pinch myself to remind me that I'm not on a fundie or woo site. I've never, ever ever heard a skeptic repond to a YE Creationist with something like "There's a bloody CONSENSUS about the Big Bang, you moron! Do you actually know how to read?"
 
I agree utterly, robinson. It's frightens me. Whenever climate raises its head here, I have to pinch myself to remind me that I'm not on a fundie or woo site. I've never, ever ever heard a skeptic repond to a YE Creationist with something like "There's a bloody CONSENSUS about the Big Bang, you moron! Do you actually know how to read?"

So you ask a question, get it answered, ignore the answer and raise a strawman...

A couple of years of similar debating techniques is exactly why some people dismiss the denialists after a couple of posts. We all have been there and done that.

It's quite simple, and not at all dependent in a "consensus":
What we know about physics tells us that it should get warmer, unless there's a dramatic negative feedback in the system;
What we know about the world tells us that no such negative feedback exists, and that some positive feedbacks are not only possible but highly probable;
Real world measurments show that it's getting warmer.

It's simple. Not that a denialist will acknowledge it, in the exactly same way as a creationist will never acknowledge the fact of evolution... but it is simple.
 
Apparently a Denialist is someone who does not believe whatever exact brand of Christia - oops, exuse me - Alarmism that the person using the phrase, Denialist, is.

The fact about another 2000 papers are published each year in climate science seems to indicate that there are quite a few open question marks. I regularly visit numerous websites and blogs where these subjects are discussed, often with strong opinions; however there is no of the personal attacks, insults and cynicism that is seen on JREF. People agree to disagree and then make detailed lists of their areas of disagreements, and agreements.

So yeah, what is the big deal?
 
So you ask a question, get it answered, ignore the answer and raise a strawman...

A couple of years of similar debating techniques is exactly why some people dismiss the denialists after a couple of posts. We all have been there and done that.

It's quite simple, and not at all dependent in a "consensus":
What we know about physics tells us that it should get warmer, unless there's a dramatic negative feedback in the system;
What we know about the world tells us that no such negative feedback exists, and that some positive feedbacks are not only possible but highly probable;
Real world measurments show that it's getting warmer.

It's simple. Not that a denialist will acknowledge it, in the exactly same way as a creationist will never acknowledge the fact of evolution... but it is simple.

Clean up on aisle 6. Enormous can of stupid logical fallacies burst wide open.

Bring the dump truck because this one's a biggie.
 
The fact about another 2000 papers are published each year in climate science seems to indicate that there are quite a few open question marks. I regularly visit numerous websites and blogs where these subjects are discussed, often with strong opinions; however there is no of the personal attacks, insults and cynicism that is seen on JREF. People agree to disagree and then make detailed lists of their areas of disagreements, and agreements.

So, to clarify your statement, would you think that the papers published every year in evolutionary biology, molecular biology and genetics mean that evolution is not a fact, because there are "quite a few open question marks"?
 
Clean up on aisle 6. Enormous can of stupid logical fallacies burst wide open.

Bring the dump truck because this one's a biggie.

Well, they do say that plagiarism is the more sincere form of flattery...

Personally, I find it depressing.

BTW, care to show those logical fallacies?
 
So, to clarify your statement, would you think that the papers published every year in evolutionary biology, molecular biology and genetics mean that evolution is not a fact, because there are "quite a few open question marks"?

:) I would think that there were a few open question marks in the areas addressed by the papers published in those areas.

In the case of climate science, this is an issue that has been latched onto, quite possibly erroneously, by politicians. There are trillions of dollars in taxes, carbon credits, and behavior change riding on climate change interpretations.

Creationism is not taught in most schools, but Gore Alarmism is taught, as the Gore movie with it's pack of Alarmist Lies is pretty standardly shown in schools and is taught as fact.

Do you have a little problem with that or not?
 
Well, they do say that plagiarism is the more sincere form of flattery...

Personally, I find it depressing.

BTW, care to show those logical fallacies?

Why certainly. Let's go through them at a pace you can understand. I'll type extra slowly for clarity.

So you ask a question, get it answered, ignore the answer and raise a strawman...

Completely unlike your "answers" presumeably.

A couple of years of similar debating techniques is exactly why some people dismiss the denialists after a couple of posts. We all have been there and done that.

The ad hominem attack - first call your opponent a "denialist" rather than a skeptic. "Denialism" is of course an attempt to conflate skepticism of AGW alarmism with Holocaust denial.

Now patronize your opponent with an apparently simple syllogism:
It's quite simple, and not at all dependent in a "consensus":
What we know about physics tells us that it should get warmer, unless there's a dramatic negative feedback in the system;
What we know about the world tells us that no such negative feedback exists, and that some positive feedbacks are not only possible but highly probable;
Real world measurments show that it's getting warmer.

So rising carbon dioxide should all things being equal cause a rise in temperature.

Except that all of the high resolution ice cores show carbon dioxide rise as a centuries delayed response to climate warming and never a forcing. Which means that the syllogism fails the experimental test. There must be a large negative feedback in the system to cause this, and to prevent the climate system running away to either Venus-style greenhouse or Ice House attractors, which the Earth has managed to avoid for billions of years despite having carbon dioxide levels (and temperatures) significantly higher than today.

But sadly simple syllogisms appeal to simple people.

It's simple. Not that a denialist will acknowledge it, in the exactly same way as a creationist will never acknowledge the fact of evolution... but it is simple.

And finally, when you're flogging a denialist dead horse, compare your opponent to a creationist.

Actually here's my favourite quote from a real creationist:

"One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn't possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it.

That made the FSTDT Post of the Year for 2005

Now of course if anyone were to compare syllogisms, then bright people might be impressed by the same use of illogic and the same ignorance of science in both.

But then that would be a straw man. The megacans of stupid are rapidly bursting in the heat - the cleanup on aisle 6 will continue shortly...
 
:) I would think that there were a few open question marks in the areas addressed by the papers published in those areas.

You would be right...

In the case of climate science, this is an issue that has been latched onto, quite possibly erroneously, by politicians.

Is this going to turn into a "it's a international enviro-socialist conspiracy to sink the US" argument? If it is, I have more important things to do with my time.

There are trillions of dollars in taxes, carbon credits, and behavior change riding on climate change interpretations.

What does that have to do with the science?

Creationism is not taught in most schools, but Gore Alarmism is taught, as the Gore movie with it's pack of Alarmist Lies is pretty standardly shown in schools and is taught as fact.

I have not seen Gore's movie, but given your persistent entumescence for the guy, forgive me if I take this with a grain of salt.

Do you have a little problem with that or not?

As I said, haven't seen the movie.

Anyway, did you have a point to begin with?
 
I never questioned the coming Global Warming, you know, the one that is a fact, no doubt about it, it has been proven beyond all doubt, everybody agrees with, that Global Warming.

I never even thought about questioning it, looking into it, until I saw the religious like attacks on anyone who did question it. That got my attention. Why would anyone with a brain be so emotional, so irrational, so petty as to personally attack somebody for asking questions, or having a different view about Global Warming?

I'm funny that way, but when I see dumb behavior, stuff that makes no sense, I start wondering why. Why is questioning something viewed as heresy? How did a scientific Theory become the same as Church Doctrine? What the hell is going on when skeptics, logical, scientific people, start sounding like the faithful?
I wonder the same thing. And I look at this thread. And you know what I see?

Yeah.
 
What does that have to do with the science?
Nothing... but it has EVERYTHING to do with the denialists. Remember, the misinformation about global warming that the denialists have been suckered into believing comes mainly from corporate sources, that have a stake in continuing to sell fossil fuels and pollute the environment. Not a lot of peer-reviewed research, but a whole stack of money from the oil companies.

And then they wonder why their claim of being "skeptical" is mocked and laughed at?
 
You would be right...

Is this going to turn into a "it's a international enviro-socialist conspiracy to sink the US" argument? If it is, I have more important things to do with my time.

What does that have to do with the science?

I have not seen Gore's movie, but given your persistent entumescence for the guy, forgive me if I take this with a grain of salt.

As I said, haven't seen the movie.

Anyway, did you have a point to begin with?

Suit yourself, but you are welcome to show that I am wrong; for example show me where children in schools are taught that sea level rise is 2-3 mm per year, after they see Gore's movie. Curriculums are published, that should not be a problem right? So can you show where the actual science is taught and not the Alarmism?

RE "what does it have to do with the science", and "environ-conspiracy", I am a bit puzzled that the answers are not obvious. So here are just a couple answers.

1. What, exactly, do you tell people to change their behavior on? (determined by science, not alarmism)
2. What, exactly, do you spend public money and do reasearch on?
3. What changes, exactly, do cities make to have less adverse environmental impacts?
4. What is the focus of policy toward the third world?
5. Are carbon credits and carbon offsets good? Should they be implemented? How about straightout emissions taxes? (Based on science right?)

 
So you ask a question, get it answered, ignore the answer and raise a strawman...

No strawman there, Megalodon. Although some of the individual words may vary, I've seen pretty much those sorts of putdowns. I have actually seen the "consensus" staement used as the be-all and end-all of the argument. No discussion. Case closed.

A couple of years of similar debating techniques is exactly why some people dismiss the denialists after a couple of posts. We all have been there and done that.

I've heard that one, too. Why the need to post at all if you're that ticked off? Why are the same posters only too happy to point out strawman arguments, Occam's Razor, Argument from Personal Incredulity, the Forer Effect and god knows how many other of the same principles again and again and again. They never seem to tire of that.

The answering posts may get a little tetchy if the same questioner carries on being wilfully ignorant, but they aren't dismissive from the off.

It's quite simple, and not at all dependent in a "consensus":
What we know about physics tells us that it should get warmer, unless there's a dramatic negative feedback in the system;

OK, what about those who say the CO2 concentration has been much higher in the prehistoric past, without the temperature being radically higher? Are they lying?

CO2 concentration has been rising pretty much steadily since the industrial revolution. After several decades of rises, the average yearly global temperature dropped fairly steadily year-on-year from approximately 1941 to 1975. We are told this is due to sulphate emissions creating a negative forcing. Why were sulphate emissions not seriously affecting the climate until the 1940s? They, too, were important industrial emissions. What caused the sulphate level to rise so dramatically in the 1940s that not only did they allay the temperature-increasing effect of the rising CO2 concentration, they reversed it? CO2 was still rising, after all.

Assuming that sulphate emissions were gradually curtailed as a result of Clean Air policies, why do we not see a gradual lessening of the temperature decrease until CO2 begins to dominate again? Why the sudden, steady increase in temperature from 1975, instead of a curve as SOx dropped out and the still-increasing CO2 began to take over?

What we know about the world tells us that no such negative feedback exists, and that some positive feedbacks are not only possible but highly probable;

I humbly suggest "what we know about the world" is insufficient to predict the climate. I've seen a huge spread in predictions of the rate of increase, confusion as to whether the rise will continue perpetually or peter out, whether the Northern Hemisphere will become a desert or an ice-bowl. Current climate models do not postdict the Little Ice Age or the Medieval Warm Period, which were significant climatic events. However, they did not depend on CO2 as a forcing. Cloud formation seems to be all but absent in climate models, but is almost certainly an important forcing.

Real world measurments show that it's getting warmer.

And I have never, ever denied that. OK, this year, in the UK at least, is so far considerably cooler than last year, but I do appreciate the difference between weather and climate.

However, there is the fact that a large number of weather stations in Siberia and in non-urban areas have ceased to be. They are no longer taking measurements at all. And yet all I've seen as a rebuttal to the urban heat island forcing is along the lines of, "Oh, that's irrelevant."

We do not know all the factors affecting climate, not by a long chalk. The 30s were pretty warm in the UK. Builders started to put water pipes on the outside of new houses because they believed there was never going to be a cold winter again. Global warming was happening - after all, the temperature had been steadily rising for 30 years. It was simple.

This was proved to be an incorrect decision during the chilly winters of the late 40s to the mid-70s, as water pipes burst all over the UK.

In the 70s, climatologists just knew we were heading for another ice age. The temperature fell steadily for 30 years. That proved it. It was obvious.

Since then, the climate has been warming up for 30 years. That means global warming is here.

Really, the simple fact that the mercury's higher than it was thirty years ago says absolutely jack about continued trends. I have never denied that recent years have been warmer than in my youth. That is both simple and obvious. Yes, I would be an idiot to deny that.

Is it simple and obvious that human beings are causing the rise in temperature? Is it simple and obvious that the temperature will continue to rise without limit? Is it simple and obvious that carbon dioxide forcing is the only game in town? I don't think so.

It's simple. Not that a denialist will acknowledge it, in the exactly same way as a creationist will never acknowledge the fact of evolution... but it is simple.

A creationist denies that evolution is happening at all. I don't deny we're in a warming cycle. I just think we don't know enough about the climate to predict what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone a hundred years from now.

I'm all for recycling and cutting down pollution on a general principle: it would be nice to stop poisoning the earth. So basically, I'm happy to walk the walk. I'm just not convinced enough to talk the talk.
 
Why certainly. Let's go through them at a pace you can understand. I'll type extra slowly for clarity.

Having read your post, I can say it didn't help... try thinking next time.

The ad hominem attack - first call your opponent a "denialist" rather than a skeptic.

Depressing... An ad hominem fallacy means that I would be attacking the arguer instead of the argument. I explained my position based on the poster's behaviour and made an argument myself. At most you could have said that I was poisoning the well, but even that one wouldn't fit, since I was explaining the reason why some regulars are less than polite.

And BTW, sceptics look at the evidence...

"Denialism" is of course an attempt to conflate skepticism of AGW alarmism with Holocaust denial.

And you are of course a plaid marsupial from Omega 3... as an exercise, find the similarity between both assertions.

Now patronize your opponent with an apparently simple syllogism:

Even if it was true, is patronizing a logical fallacy now? And by the way, that was not a syllogism. Don't use big words if you don't know their meaning.

So rising carbon dioxide should all things being equal cause a rise in temperature.

Apparently you got it....

Except that all of the high resolution ice cores show carbon dioxide rise as a centuries delayed response to climate warming and never a forcing. Which means that the syllogism fails the experimental test. There must be a large negative feedback in the system to cause this, and to prevent the climate system running away to either Venus-style greenhouse or Ice House attractors, which the Earth has managed to avoid for billions of years despite having carbon dioxide levels (and temperatures) significantly higher than today.

...but then, disaster.

But sadly simple syllogisms appeal to simple people.

Yes, I agree the list was simplified to drive a point across. Is that a logicall fallacy, now?

And finally, when you're flogging a denialist dead horse, compare your opponent to a creationist.

You're wrong as usual... but I know you're not going to let it stop you.

Now of course if anyone were to compare syllogisms, then bright people might be impressed by the same use of illogic and the same ignorance of science in both.

Well, I am surely impressed with your grasp of the terms "syllogism" and "logical fallacy".

So, back to your earlier claim: Can you show us the the logical fallacies?
 
1. What, exactly, do you tell people to change their behavior on? (determined by science, not alarmism)
2. What, exactly, do you spend public money and do reasearch on?
3. What changes, exactly, do cities make to have less adverse environmental impacts?
4. What is the focus of policy toward the third world?
5. Are carbon credits and carbon offsets good? Should they be implemented? How about straightout emissions taxes? (Based on science right?)

So, you now accept that changes need to be made? Or are you going to claim that unsatisfactory answers to your question are somehow proof that there's not a problem at all?
 
Nothing... but it has EVERYTHING to do with the denialists. Remember, the misinformation about global warming that the denialists have been suckered into believing comes mainly from corporate sources, that have a stake in continuing to sell fossil fuels and pollute the environment. Not a lot of peer-reviewed research, but a whole stack of money from the oil companies.

Joe Newman of Perpetual Motion fame has said exactly the same thing. Guess there must be something in his claims after all.

Let me put things another way:

In the 1930s, it was warming, and people thought it would go on forever. It didn't. Scientists knew about the Greenhouse Effect then, they knew carbon dioxide was a GG, and they took measurements. Where did they go wrong in their predictions?

In the 1970s, it was cooling, and people thought it would go on forever. It didn't. Scientists knew about the Greenhouse Effect then, they knew carbon dioxide was a GG, and they took measurements. They also know SOx was a negative forcing. Where did they go wrong in their predictions?

The temperature is increasing now. How do we know we're right in the assumption of ever-increasing temperature? Because we know so much more about the climate than in the 30s and 70s? Then why can't we agree on what the rate of rise will be, or for how long it will continue? Is this part of the great consensus?
 
Joe Newman of Perpetual Motion fame has said exactly the same thing. Guess there must be something in his claims after all.

Let me put things another way:

In the 1930s, it was warming, and people thought it would go on forever. It didn't. Scientists knew about the Greenhouse Effect then, they knew carbon dioxide was a GG, and they took measurements. Where did they go wrong in their predictions?

In the 1970s, it was cooling, and people thought it would go on forever. It didn't. Scientists knew about the Greenhouse Effect then, they knew carbon dioxide was a GG, and they took measurements. They also know SOx was a negative forcing. Where did they go wrong in their predictions?

The temperature is increasing now. How do we know we're right in the assumption of ever-increasing temperature? Because we know so much more about the climate than in the 30s and 70s? Then why can't we agree on what the rate of rise will be, or for how long it will continue? Is this part of the great consensus?

I guess if every scientist doesn't agree 100% with every other scientist, then the bulk of the evidence can be thrown out?

You sound like one of those "evolution is a theory in crisis" creationists.
 

Back
Top Bottom