[Merged]architects and engineers for 9/11 truth = SCAM!

[scissorhands]

When Markyx discovered this he could have simply emailed Mr Gage and told him. Instead, he started a thread here encouraging everyone to sign up under false names. Childish and attention seeking.

Those who wish to profit from lies and intentionally setup websites to do so arent necessarily amenable to such subtlety.
I have no sympathy for con artists.

 

[twinstead]

When Markyx discovered this he could have simply emailed Mr Gage and told him. Instead, he started a thread here encouraging everyone to sign up under false names. Childish and attention seeking.

Possibly, but these so-called truth groups pretty much disgust us--you know, that whole accusing innocent people of mass murder thing. What would you do for example if a site dedicated to child abuse did the same thing?

 

[Revolutionary91]

Those who wish to profit from lies and intentionally setup websites to do so arent necessarily amenable to such subtlety.
I have no sympathy for con artists.

How is he profitting? Outside your cynical world view there are people who do things because they believe in them. Mr Gage doesn't have your complete distrust of the human race and thought that his petition on such a serious issue would not be vandalised by morons.

You do realise that his list will eventually be handed to congress. You think he wants fake names on that list?

Mr Gage is putting his job and reputation at stake for this and he is not selling books and films.

 

[MRC_Hans]

You do realise that his list will eventually be handed to congress. You think he wants fake names on that list?

Mr Gage is putting his job and reputation at stake for this and he is not selling books and films.

Then, shouldn't he rather compile a list of evidence to present to the congress? That might impress them a good deal more.

ETA: Also, perhaps someone should tell him that IF he wants to hand in a petition list, it should contain people's signatures. A list of names and occupations that could be compiled from a phone directory won't cut the cake.

(I don't know how people can be this detached from reality and survive)

Hans

 

[twinstead]

Then, shouldn't he rather compile a list of evidence to present to the congress? That might impress them a good deal more.

My thought exactly. The majority of truthers on this forum consider their evidence that 911 was an inside job to be SO compelling that anybody who disagrees must be a shill or an idiot.

This evidence should be presented to Congress immediately!

ETA: Oh, and dude. Tell your avatar to stop winking at me. It's freaking me out...

 

[Gravy]

I had never heard of "woo" before. I thought you had a typo, but I looked it up for a minute and saw that it is some kind of herbal product. I don't make my products. I purchase them from the same company that I made my original purchase from. That company is Amber Technology.

Apparently I am not allowed to post url's since I just registered yesterday and haven't posted enough times, but you can google it if you like.

Take care,
Traci

Please forgive me for derailing this thread for one post. It's important to me and I don't know if Traci will be visiting often.

Traci,

I visited your site and was dismayed to see that your business is selling homeopathic preparations to treat medical conditions in dogs.

I am a dog lover (no, really: click button below)

and I want to implore you to examine what is actually in the products you sell, as opposed to what is on the label. Homeopathic remedies are at best very expensive preparations that do nothing for a dog, and at worst are harming dogs by causing their owners not to seek evidence-based medical care for them.

I'm glad your site starts with this standard disclaimer:
"If your pet has a medical condition, and you have the funds available, please take him to the veterinarian."

However, you then promote several products as being effective treatments for potentially serious canine medical conditions, including

Parvaid ($45 for one ounce) for Parvovirus, Vomiting, Diarrhea, Corona, E-Coli, and Giardia; and

Vibactra Plus ($35 for one ounce) for bacterial, viral and parasitical infections.

Along with the rest of the homeopathic* "remedies" you offer, these expensive products contain only water and alcohol. How can that be, when the herbal ingredients are listed on the packaging? Well, that's the nature of homeopathy: by definition, a homeopathic remedy is diluted far past the point where even a molecule of the "active" ingredients could remain. By definition, the homeopathic "herbal remedies" you sell contain absolutely no herbs or other curatives, unless you consider distilled water with a dash of alcohol to be a pet remedy. You are selling products that cannot possibly treat the serious conditions they are marketed for.

Of course, similar homeopathic "remedies" are popular with humans, although usually for mild conditions. At least humans can be subject to the placebo effect. We take something that we think will help that cold go away; we imagine we are taking charge of our illness, and that cold may seem less severe, and we may spend a few less hours in bed. Of course, dogs can't even derive that small benefit from homeopathic potions. You would do as well to attempt to treat dogs by mental telepathy, over the phone.

Shocking, isn't it? $45 for a tiny bottle of water? I know it must be unpleasant to learn that you are taking people's money and offering nothing in return to help their suffering furry loved ones. Some things might have clued you in, but the makers of these non-remedies are experts at pulling the wool over our eyes. Have you noticed that these products are touted as having no known side effects? That should cause you to prick up your ears. Have you ever heard of an EFFECTIVE medicine that had NO known side effects? I haven't. Also note how they push the herbal aspect of the potions and downplay the homeopathic part: I think pet owners would be very upset to discover that they've been fleeced.

James Randi, who runs the foundation under which this forum operates, is a famous debunker of frauds, quackery, and pseudoscience. He sometimes begins lectures by consuming a bottle or two of homeopathic sleeping pills, of course to no ill effect. I'll gladly drink 6 bottles of Parvaid or Vibactra at once and suffer no ill effects, if it will prove a point to you. Mr. Randi has long had a standing offer of $1 million to any homeopath who can simply tell the difference between an "active" homeopathic remedy and its base preparation (in your case, water and alcohol), under controlled conditions. I don't believe anyone has taken him up on that challenge. They have so many excuses why they don't need that million!

So that's the bad news.

The good news is that you've possibly come to the best place in the world for advice and evidence about homeopathy. At least two veterinarians are daily posters here: Dogdoctor and Rolfe. They are great people and I'm sure would be glad to advise you. You can send them a private message by clicking on their names. Rolfe (a woman), actually has a website that opposes the veterinary use of homeopathic preparations: The British Veterinary Voodoo Society She has taken on all of Britain, and is very, very well informed. You can also click on the "Private Messages" link at above right to send individual messages to these folks.

In addition, the "General Skepticism and Paranormal" subforum here is chock-full of people, including MDs, who are fantastically knowledgeable about homeopathy, medicine, and science, and can provide you with 600 zillion reasons why homeopathy is a potentially dangerous fraud, all backed with evidence. I've taken the liberty of starting a thread about this there if you'd like to ask questions, have a discussion, or proclaim the efficacy of homeopathy. You'll also see an active thread there in which homeopath Dana Ullman, like all homeopaths who post here, makes an embarrassing mess due to his lack of knowledge in his supposed area of expertise.

If you don't want to dive into the forums, Stephen Barrett, MD. has an excellent primer on homeopathy at his Quackwatch site.

Traci, I hope you will take advantage of the knowledge that's freely offered the many capable and caring people here. The pets that give us so much deserve our best in return.

Sincerely,
Mark Roberts



* Please do double-check with Amber Technology/Labs that these are true homeopathic preparations and are diluted as labeled. Some unscrupulous manufacturers have occasionally labeled products with active ingredients as homeopathic, because the H word sells. That's right: in the bass-ackwards world of homeopathy, the crooks are the ones who put stuff in the bottle that might actually do some good.

 

[uk_dave]

You do realise that his list will eventually be handed to congress. You think he wants fake names on that list?

Precisely. So you would think he'd be a bit more careful about who is able to sign it, wouldn't you?

Or perhaps it didn't matter to Gage and his pals, so long as they got a good long list.

 

[BillyRayValentine]

When Markyx discovered this he could have simply emailed Mr Gage and told him. Instead, he started a thread here encouraging everyone to sign up under false names. Childish and attention seeking.

If Mr. Gage is interested only in those with legitimate credentials, can you explain why Dr. Michael Voschine and John Blacklebee are still listed, as licensed and accredited structural engineers?

There is no record - federal, state or local - whatsoever of a single individual in the United States having either of those surnames. Feel free to draw from any database you like if you dispute this.

How is he profitting? Outside your cynical world view there are people who do things because they believe in them. Mr Gage doesn't have your complete distrust of the human race and thought that his petition on such a serious issue would not be vandalised by morons.

Hmm...an impassioned defense of Mr. Gage's character. Very heartfelt. Maybe you're right - I'll think on it some more whilst I do some shopping at the ae911truth online store.

You do realise that his list will eventually be handed to congress. You think he wants fake names on that list?

The thought of him handing that ridiculous list to congress is hysterical.

Something tells me that you and reality have only a passing acquaintance.

Mr Gage is putting his job and reputation at stake for this and he is not selling books and films.

Oh, he will be. Something tells me that Mr. Gage has decided that being an architect is no longer important to him, and this is his way of transitioning to the greener pastures of lecture circuits and book deals. You ignore the fact that truthyism has become a regular cottage industry. Look at the speaking fees charged by its eminent leaders. Plug in a few numbers and you realize right quick that conspiracy theorizing can be a lucrative endeavor.

Yep, in a country of 300 million he should be able to make a very comfortable living. No shortage of half-wits and/or hyper-politicized pinheads to draw from.

 

[CHF]

I haven't been following the AE911 fiasco lately.

Has anyone from that fine organization submitted a paper for peer-review?

 

[AZCat]

If Mr. Gage is interested only in those with legitimate credentials, can you explain why Dr. Michael Voschine and John Blacklebee are still listed, as licensed and accredited structural engineers?

There is no record - federal, state or local - whatsoever of a single individual in the United States having either of those surnames. Feel free to draw from any database you like if you dispute this.

For those who are interested in seeing for themselves if these two are registered, the following links are quite useful.

California Board of Technical Registration Search Engine

Links to all the State Engineering Licensing Boards

I'm sure there are similar links for other countries but the majority of the "signees" on the AE9/11Truth are listed as American.

 

[chipmunk stew]

How is he profitting?

http://www.ae911truth.org/donate.php
http://www.ae911truth.org/speakings.php

 

[e^n]

I visited your site and was dismayed to see that your business is selling homeopathic preparations to treat medical conditions in dogs.

Bugger, I read through the site quickly and didn't see the homeopathic element, I must be getting slow

 

[chipmunk stew]

I have worked around aircraft practically all of my adult life, and I think this entitles me to give my opinion as to the durability of aircraft and engines. The typical american has not worked with or around the same products that I have, nor do they realize how these products react due to stress.

Traci, does your experience with aircraft entitle you to give your opinion as to the efficacy of untested herbal remedies on life-threatening health conditions? And to profit from that opinion?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Please forgive me for derailing this thread for one post. It's important to me and I don't know if Traci will be visiting often.

Traci,

I visited your site and was dismayed to see that your business is selling homeopathic preparations to treat medical conditions in dogs.

I am a dog lover (no, really: click button below)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/87904694cde888f6c.jpg

and I want to implore you to examine what is actually in the products you sell, as opposed to what is on the label. Homeopathic remedies are at best very expensive preparations that do nothing for a dog, and at worst are harming dogs by causing their owners not to seek evidence-based medical care for them.

I'm glad your site starts with this standard disclaimer:
"If your pet has a medical condition, and you have the funds available, please take him to the veterinarian."

However, you then promote several products as being effective treatments for potentially serious canine medical conditions, including

Parvaid ($45 for one ounce) for Parvovirus, Vomiting, Diarrhea, Corona, E-Coli, and Giardia; and

Vibactra Plus ($35 for one ounce) for bacterial, viral and parasitical infections.

Along with the rest of the homeopathic* "remedies" you offer, these expensive products contain only water and alcohol. How can that be, when the herbal ingredients are listed on the packaging? Well, that's the nature of homeopathy: by definition, a homeopathic remedy is diluted far past the point where even a molecule of the "active" ingredients could remain. By definition, the homeopathic "herbal remedies" you sell contain absolutely no herbs or other curatives, unless you consider distilled water with a dash of alcohol to be a pet remedy. You are selling products that cannot possibly treat the serious conditions they are marketed for.

Of course, similar homeopathic "remedies" are popular with humans, although usually for mild conditions. At least humans can be subject to the placebo effect. We take something that we think will help that cold go away; we imagine we are taking charge of our illness, and that cold may seem less severe, and we may spend a few less hours in bed. Of course, dogs can't even derive that small benefit from homeopathic potions. You would do as well to attempt to treat dogs by mental telepathy, over the phone.

Shocking, isn't it? $45 for a tiny bottle of water? I know it must be unpleasant to learn that you are taking people's money and offering nothing in return to help their suffering furry loved ones. Some things might have clued you in, but the makers of these non-remedies are experts at pulling the wool over our eyes. Have you noticed that these products are touted as having no known side effects? That should cause you to prick up your ears. Have you ever heard of an EFFECTIVE medicine that had NO known side effects? I haven't. Also note how they push the herbal aspect of the potions and downplay the homeopathic part: I think pet owners would be very upset to discover that they've been fleeced.

James Randi, who runs the foundation under which this forum operates, is a famous debunker of frauds, quackery, and pseudoscience. He sometimes begins lectures by consuming a bottle or two of homeopathic sleeping pills, of course to no ill effect. I'll gladly drink 6 bottles of Parvaid or Vibactra at once and suffer no ill effects, if it will prove a point to you. Mr. Randi has long had a standing offer of $1 million to any homeopath who can simply tell the difference between an "active" homeopathic remedy and its base preparation (in your case, water and alcohol), under controlled conditions. I don't believe anyone has taken him up on that challenge. They have so many excuses why they don't need that million!

So that's the bad news.

The good news is that you've possibly come to the best place in the world for advice and evidence about homeopathy. At least two veterinarians are daily posters here: Dogdoctor and Rolfe. They are great people and I'm sure would be glad to advise you. You can send them a private message by clicking on their names. Rolfe (a woman), actually has a website that opposes the veterinary use of homeopathic preparations: The British Veterinary Voodoo Society She has taken on all of Britain, and is very, very well informed. You can also click on the "Private Messages" link at above right to send individual messages to these folks.

In addition, the "General Skepticism and Paranormal" subforum here is chock-full of people, including MDs, who are fantastically knowledgeable about homeopathy, medicine, and science, and can provide you with 600 zillion reasons why homeopathy is a potentially dangerous fraud, all backed with evidence. I've taken the liberty of starting a thread about this there if you'd like to ask questions, have a discussion, or proclaim the efficacy of homeopathy. You'll also see an active thread there in which homeopath Dana Ullman, like all homeopaths who post here, makes an embarrassing mess due to his lack of knowledge in his supposed area of expertise.

If you don't want to dive into the forums, Stephen Barrett, MD. has an excellent primer on homeopathy at his Quackwatch site.

Traci, I hope you will take advantage of the knowledge that's freely offered the many capable and caring people here. The pets that give us so much deserve our best in return.

Sincerely,
Mark Roberts



* Please do double-check with Amber Technology/Labs that these are true homeopathic preparations and are diluted as labeled. Some unscrupulous manufacturers have occasionally labeled products with active ingredients as homeopathic, because the H word sells. That's right: in the bass-ackwards world of homeopathy, the crooks are the ones who put stuff in the bottle that might actually do some good.

WHAT THE F@#&?! She's pushing a product containing

Peppermint- Calm upset stomachs and promote appetite.
Spearmint- Calm upset stomachs and promote appetite.
Chamomile- Used to prevent cramping and calm the nerves.
Plantain- Has antibiotic properties. Soothe inflamed tissues in the intestinal tract
Echinacea- Build the immune system.
Oregon Grape-An antimicrobial which kills viral and bacterial infections in the blood stream.
Rose Hips- Helps combat stress and a source of Vitamin C.
Yarrow- Used for hemorrhaging.
Garlic- A good source of sulfur which gives its' antibiotic properties.
Golden Seal- An antimicrobial, kills viruses and bacteria. Works mainly in the intestinal tract. Golden seal contains Hydrastis, which can cause miscarriage.
Hibiscus Flowers- Used for nausea
Alcohol- Intensifies, while preserving the properties of this herbal tincture
Distilled Water

For treating Parvo, and claims it has an 85% success rate?! Bull f#@$ing s#@$ it does! Our rescue lab (now 2 1/2) had Parvo and my folks rescue mutt (now 1) also had it. You know what the vets used to treat it? Tamiflu, because it is an anti-viraldrug; anti-biotics, to prevent secondary infections from occurring; and support treatments, such as IV fluids. (http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=&A=580&SourceID) To even suggest that home, homeopathic treatment is appropriate for Parvo is horrible misinformation.

 

[BillyRayValentine]

For those who are interested in seeing for themselves if these two are registered, the following links are quite useful.

California Board of Technical Registration Search Engine

Links to all the State Engineering Licensing Boards

I'm sure there are similar links for other countries but the majority of the "signees" on the AE9/11Truth are listed as American.

It's not just that they're not registered. It's that not a single person with the last name of Voschine or Blacklebee exists. No such person has a social security number, has ever owned real property, etc., etc., etc. They are both completely fictitious surnames.

Not surprising, but worth knowing. I believe that leaves one remaining structural engineer on their roster, one Dennis J. Kollar. Absolutely no information is available on him either, save for the fact that he is registered as an engineer in WI. What kind of engineer is anybody's guess.

The only certainty is that, were he truly a legitimate structural engineer, the loons would be trumpeting his credentials far and wide.

 

[T.A.M.]

# of debunking videos FOR SALE = 0-1 (I am not sure if BBC Consipracy Files video is for sale or not)

# of truther videos FOR SALE = Many (at least half a dozen from Alex jones alone)

Enough said.

TAM

 

[BeAChooser]

I believe that leaves one remaining structural engineer on their roster, one Dennis J. Kollar. Absolutely no information is available on him either, save for the fact that he is registered as an engineer in WI. What kind of engineer is anybody's guess.

There is a Dennis Kollar apparently working for Ambrose Engineering in Cedarburg, WI and they do structural engineering. They seem to do a lot of schools, however.

 

[MarkyX]

When Markyx discovered this he could have simply emailed Mr Gage and told him. Instead, he started a thread here encouraging everyone to sign up under false names. Childish and attention seeking.

Edited by chillzero: 

Edited for civility

Ever since I released the Screw Loose Change video, I have received nothing but threats, insults, and harassment from your ilk. I've had a few individuals who try to find out where I live or where I work so they stalk me.

When your group of nutcases suggest that I should have been part of the 9/11 victim list or remove one of my limbs, the gloves are off.

And I sure as hell not going to be friendly with a dumbass like Richie boy who uses a documentary has has been debunked, used holocaust denial as a source, and has manipulated audio/footage as his information.

In short,

Edited by chillzero: 

Edited for civility

. If you have scientific evidence, submit it to a peer-review scientific journal. Otherwise any type of article or YouTube video that you link to is invalid. True skeptics like myself are yawning at the benches, waiting for the truth movement to get the game going.

 

[uk_dave]

Edited by chillzero: 

Edited for civility

.

In short,

Edited by chillzero: 

Edited for civility

. If you have scientific evidence, submit it to a peer-review scientific journal. Otherwise any type of article or YouTube video that you link to is invalid. True skeptics like myself are yawning at the benches, waiting for the truth movement to get the game going.

Could've done with a few more expletives

I don't really understand why 'truthers' feel that they should be treated with respect.

I guess there was a time, a few years back, when legitimate questions could have been asked about 911, given that though the answers were available, they were fairly widely dispersed and at times difficult to track down. Of course the 911 'investigators' could have found the answers on their own, had they wanted to.

But that time is long past. Thanks to many of the people on this site (no names, no pack drill...... you know who you are) this relevant information has been brought together and made easily digestible.

Now there are no excuses.

So when 'truthers' repeat the same old tired tripe that forms the foundation of their movement they are not just being ignorant, they are being wilfully ignorant.

That's an important thing to emphasise. There is no reason for a 911 'truth' movement anymore. If you don't know the answer then you're either asking a stupid question or you've not bothered to read/listen to the answer.

I note over on LCF that Earthquake (he of the kubrick fantasies) sees fit to post a thread called "Questions you will never hear a JREFER ask". And what is first on his list? This:

How were World Trade Centre Survivors able to stand in the holes made by the plane impacts, casually calling down for help, when the heat behind them was hot enough to be melting steel?

Yep, he's right, you'll never hear anyone here (skeptics) ask such a blindingly stupid question. And note the language used: "casually calling down for help" and "melting steel". ******** questions and assumptions so old they're practically fossilised.

So 'truthers', please cut the crap. As was pointed out by JamesB on another thread a few weeks ago, regarding the attitude here towards 'truthers' ... "I don't want them as friends" (or words to that effect)

This isn't a debate based upon equality of opinion. This isn't about some unsolved conundrum where everyones opinion carries equal weight. This is about facts and lies. The 'truthers' have way too many lies in their story for them to be treated with respect.

I would also say that, like most things to do with 911, this isn't really about the 'truthers' at all. It's about those who may be influenced by the 'truthers' lies. Those people who happen upon one of their little films and suddenly begin to wonder if there may be some truth in it all.

Well, there aint and the JREF does a fantastic job of making sure people know it.

Now, I must go and sacrifice a small cute child to mighty moloch in preparation for my meeting with the representatives of the federal reserve bank and our discussions about the next false flag orgy we are planning.

 

[Revolutionary91]

# of debunking videos FOR SALE = 0-1 (I am not sure if BBC Consipracy Files video is for sale or not)

# of truther videos FOR SALE = Many (at least half a dozen from Alex jones alone)

Enough said.

TAM

How many of those truther videos are also available free online? How many do you think they actually sell? When Jones decides to make a new film is he meant to produce the budget for it from thin air?