Patriotism Poll

[Pardalis]

Missile at Ground Zero, this is the 21st century. Try to keep up.

 

[MaGZ]

Mexico. Okay, frankly, I think the best thing we could do for Mexico would be to round up every illegal alien in the US, truck them back to Mexico, and put a 20-foot high wall on the border, with guards every 100 feet and the authority to shoot to kill. Seriously. That would force the Mexican government to deal with its rampant corruption and cronyism that has kept Mexico poor, instead of exporting its poverty problems.

Or it could spark mass rioting, insurrection, and civil war in our neighbor to the south.

Amen.
We need a fascist solution to our border problem. In addition, I would completely close the border with Mexico.

 

[MaGZ]

One could also ask, have they been good neighbors to us? Is it our fault that Haiti has always been such a basket case? Or that Cuba aligned itself with the Soviets? Other Caribbean island countries have not had such bad relationships with us. Is it possible that confirmation bias affects your perception here?

Haiti has been a basket case because the Black African population slaughtered the White population during the time of the French Revolution.

The French Revolution in San Domingo by Lothorp Stoddard
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC02058963&id=iwQOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=titlepage

Lothrop Stoddard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothrop_Stoddard

 

[BPSCG]

Mexico. Okay, frankly, I think the best thing we could do for Mexico would be to round up every illegal alien in the US, truck them back to Mexico, and put a 20-foot high wall on the border, with guards every 100 feet and the authority to shoot to kill. Seriously. That would force the Mexican government to deal with its rampant corruption and cronyism that has kept Mexico poor, instead of exporting its poverty problems.

Or it could spark mass rioting, insurrection, and civil war in our neighbor to the south.

Amen.
We need a fascist solution to our border problem. In addition, I would completely close the border with Mexico.

Dang. I was being about 75% tongue-in-cheek there. That post was born largely out of frustration over our government's inability and unwillingness to police its own borders, and Mexico's inability and unwillingness to deal with its core problems that make our southern neighbor poor while our northern one is prosperous.

And here MaGZ not only signs on with a seig heil! but goes a step or three beyond.

MaGZ, please do me a kindness and stay away from me and my posts; I can't stand the stench. And, in commemoration of our national day of independence, please read the first two paragraphs, as well as the last one, from our Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights of our Constitution, and think about them, just a little bit. The guys who wrote those words would have little use for your filthy spew.

 

[MaGZ]

Dang. I was being about 75% tongue-in-cheek there. That post was born largely out of frustration over our government's inability and unwillingness to police its own borders, and Mexico's inability and unwillingness to deal with its core problems that make our southern neighbor poor while our northern one is prosperous.

And here MaGZ not only signs on with a seig heil! but goes a step or three beyond.

MaGZ, please do me a kindness and stay away from me and my posts; I can't stand the stench. And, in commemoration of our national day of independence, please read the first two paragraphs, as well as the last one, from our Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights of our Constitution, and think about them, just a little bit. The guys who wrote those words would have little use for your filthy spew.

The founding fathers would be in agreement with many of my views. America was founded as an experiment in White self-government.

 

[RandFan]

To summarise these ramblings, your concept of patriotism:

1) Requires me to be absolutely secure, to the point of dogmatism, that my concepts of ‘liberty’ and ‘justice’ are the correct ones.
2) Makes it logically necessary for me either to love equally any other government that expresses those concepts, regardless of whether or not I live there, or to assert that only my government has the form that can truly achieve them.

I have no idea as to how the first premise follows.
I love my wife not because she is superior in every way to anyone else nor do I love all other women equally to her. I love the ideals of my country for the benefits they afford me. I respect other countries who offer similar benefits to its citizens.

And I’m unnerved by the idea that you think these things are unique to America in any case.

You are falling into the trap of assuming things not in evidence. Of course I don't think any such thing. On the contrary, I note frequently on this forum the high standard of living, freedoms and even perhaps superior benefits of other nations. I regularly praise the Netherlands, Canada and other European nations that I admit I could live in for various reasons. As one who is disappointed with my nation's health care and who is suffering without health insurance I easily see the potential benefits of other systems.

 

[D'rok]

The same emotions swell up in my breast every day when I see all those flags: Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could drop a couple of WMDs on someone today? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could engage in some expansionism today and make Ontario our 51st state?

In the immortal words of your fearless leader: Bring it on. You'd be lucky if we only burn down the White House this time.





please don't attack us again.

 

[RandFan]

The founding fathers would be in agreement with many of my views. America was founded as an experiment in White self-government.

Please to demonstrate rhetoric from the founding fathers in support of your thesis?

 

[Mashuna]

Please to demonstrate rhetoric from the founding fathers in support of your thesis?

You're expecting evidence from a guy whose username refers to missiles at ground zero?

I admire your optimism

 

[RandFan]

You're expecting evidence from a guy whose username refers to missiles at ground zero?

I admire your optimism

Hopelessly.

 

[D'rok]

My race is my "tribe." That is why I am a White Nationalist.

What is this "white race" of which you speak? In fact, what is this idea of "race" of which you speak?

I'm "white" and you sure as hell aren't part of my tribe.

 

[Matt the Poet]

I have no idea as to how the first premise follows.

Well, you said that you love America as

an abstract concept of liberty and justice

and my point was that I don't see either of these things as abstract concepts. They are words you can only ascribe to actions and situations in the real world. I would hope that any open-minded person's ideas about what they are and what they mean in different circumstances are subject to change. So they aren't the sorts of things I can ascribe permanently to a country, a state, a government etc. as a reason for loving it.

I love my wife not because she is superior in every way to anyone else nor do I love all other women equally to her. I love the ideals of my country for the benefits they afford me. I respect other countries who offer similar benefits to its citizens

So you love the ideals of your country, but merely respect others which are similar? The wife analogy is good, but gets to the heart of my problem with patriotism generally. Women other than your wife have the same sort of properties that you admire in her, but there is something special about your wife that means that you love her and not these other women.

It seems reasonable for a person to have that property. My girlfriend has it too. I'm not sure it's equally reasonable for a landmass or a government.

You are falling into the trap of assuming things not in evidence

I took the evidence to be as follows:

The principle that all people have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This lead to an end of slavery in America. It led to the right of women to vote. It lead to civil rights for all.

This seemed to suggest that you thought America's founding principles logically (but, I will admit, perhaps not uniquely) led to such things - I would dispute that. For example the constitution may, eventually, have assisted the end of slavery, but only alongside the fact that it had already been banned in many other nations, that it wasn't terribly efficient economically speaking, that there was religious and secular agitation against it etc. etc.

History seems far too complex to suggest that a fistful of documents led to such wide-ranging consequences.

 

[Pardalis]

It seems reasonable for a person to have that property. My girlfriend has it too. I'm not sure it's equally reasonable for a landmass or a government.

Ever heard of Twin Peaks, California?

 

[Matt the Poet]

Ever heard of Twin Peaks, California?

[In the manner of Terry Thomas] I say! [/In the manner of Terry Thomas]

 

[D'rok]

and my point was that I don't see either of these things as abstract concepts. They are words you can only ascribe to actions and situations in the real world. I would hope that any open-minded person's ideas about what they are and what they mean in different circumstances are subject to change. So they aren't the sorts of things I can ascribe permanently to a country, a state, a government etc. as a reason for loving it.

These things are most assuredly abstract concepts. Political philosophers have been debating these ideas in the abstract for literally thousands of years. The quintessential work of political philosophy (Plato, Republic) is an entire volume dedicated to the attempt to define Justice and bring it from the abstract into the concrete. This is an ongoing and as yet incomplete project. The American experiment is part of that project - i.e., the effort to bring the abstract (justice, liberty etc) into the concrete. Loving this effort and thus loving America is a perfectly reasonable response.

So you love the ideals of your country, but merely respect others which are similar? The wife analogy is good, but gets to the heart of my problem with patriotism generally. Women other than your wife have the same sort of properties that you admire in her, but there is something special about your wife that means that you love her and not these other women.

There is indeed something special about how one's wife or country actualizes the abstract. An ideal is brought forth in different ways even if the underlying ideal is essentially the same. It is the particular bringing forth that we love in our particular countries. It is the particular embodiment of "womanly virtue" that we love in our particular wives.

It seems reasonable for a person to have that property. My girlfriend has it too. I'm not sure it's equally reasonable for a landmass or a government.

Governments have these properties. Landmasses...well that's a different kind of love.

This seemed to suggest that you thought America's founding principles logically (but, I will admit, perhaps not uniquely) led to such things - I would dispute that. For example the constitution may, eventually, have assisted the end of slavery, but only alongside the fact that it had already been banned in many other nations, that it wasn't terribly efficient economically speaking, that there was religious and secular agitation against it etc. etc.

History seems far too complex to suggest that a fistful of documents led to such wide-ranging consequences.

Documents don't create these ideals. They express them in an attempt to bring forth the concrete from the abstract. As an expression of the ideals that we wish to bring forth into political reality, these documents are worthy of love, and so are the countries that are informed by them.

 

[RandFan]

Well, you said that you love America as

and my point was that I don't see either of these things as abstract concepts.

How are they anything but abstract?

They are words you can only ascribe to actions and situations in the real world.

No, they are abstractions. Period. There are real life consequences to those abstracts but they are abstract none the less.

I would hope that any open-minded person's ideas about what they are and what they mean in different circumstances are subject to change. So they aren't the sorts of things I can ascribe permanently to a country, a state, a government etc. as a reason for loving it.

It's simple really, I compare the ideals and history of my nation to the ideals and history of others before America and using inductive logic I can infer that the ideals of America have had a profound impact on human society for good.

So you love the ideals of your country, but merely respect others which are similar? The wife analogy is good, but gets to the heart of my problem with patriotism generally. Women other than your wife have the same sort of properties that you admire in her, but there is something special about your wife that means that you love her and not these other women.

Yes, exactly. And if I moved to Canada I could come to love Canada.

It seems reasonable for a person to have that property. My girlfriend has it too. I'm not sure it's equally reasonable for a landmass or a government.

Again, it isn't simply a landmass or government but an ideal and it is reasonable. I can contrast and compare and evaluate my life in America and conclude that it is a good thing and that I love my country.

This seemed to suggest that you thought America's founding principles logically (but, I will admit, perhaps not uniquely) led to such things - I would dispute that.

Then we must disagree. There is little question that those who fought for the end of slavery appealed to the ideals of the constitution for their impetus. More importantly it has been the Constitution that the Supreme Court has relied on again and again to rule for minority and civil rights. I don't see much argument here.

For example the constitution may, eventually, have assisted the end of slavery, but only alongside the fact that it had already been banned in many other nations, that it wasn't terribly efficient economically speaking, that there was religious and secular agitation against it etc. etc.

History seems far too complex to suggest that a fistful of documents led to such wide-ranging consequences.

And no one is making that argument. It is the ideals that the nation was founded on and the ideals enshrined in those documents.

Are you sincerely arguing that the Constitution of The United States has had little to no influence in shaping American society and ethics?

 

[MaGZ]

Please to demonstrate rhetoric from the founding fathers in support of your thesis?

The meaning of Thomas Jefferson's phrase
"all men are created equal"


http://mattbrundage.com/publications/jeffersonequality.html

 

[RandFan]

The meaning of Thomas Jefferson's phrase
"all men are created equal"


http://mattbrundage.com/publications/jeffersonequality.html

America was founded as an experiment in White self-government.

Something doesn't make sense. How does "all men are created equal" demonstrate that America is an experiment in "white" self-government.

 

[MaGZ]

What is this "white race" of which you speak? In fact, what is this idea of "race" of which you speak?

I'm "white" and you sure as hell aren't part of my tribe.

Is you point, White people don’t exist or race does not exist?

If neither exists, how can you claim to be White?

 

[D'rok]

Is you point, White people don’t exist or race does not exist?

Both.

If neither exists, how can you claim to be White?

I don't. Thus the "quotes". But you would recognize me as part of the granfalloon you call "white".