Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[Foster Zygote]

Actions speak louder then words.

Wow, argument by cliché. Is this a new kind of logical fallacy?

 

[DOC]

What about his actions of editing the bible to remove any and all divinity of Jesus?

"Thomas" Jefferson kind of reminds me of Doubting "Thomas" (aka St. Thomas).

They had something else in common. They both tried to convert "Indians" to the teachings of Jesus. Maybe God is giving us some clues there. Maybe the same way He did with the biggest church in the world being built on top of that "Rock" St. Peter.

 

[Cleon]

They had something else in common. They both tried to convert "Indians" to the teachings of Jesus.

The fact that you are still claiming this about Jefferson, despite the fact that it was completely debunked time and time again, just goes to show that you have no interest in history whatsoever.

 

[kmortis]

Cleon,
Don't you think it's about time we stop feeding the troll? We've moved beyond the point of "reaching the lurkers" and moved on to "padding post counts".

Just a thought. I could be wrong.

 

[Foster Zygote]

"Thomas" Jefferson kind of reminds me of Doubting "Thomas" (aka St. Thomas).

They had something else in common. They both tried to convert "Indians" to the teachings of Jesus. Maybe God is giving us some clues there. Maybe the same way He did with the biggest church in the world being built on top of that "Rock" St. Peter.

How far is the moon from Earth? Oh, sorry. I thought you were someone else for a second.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
They had something else in common. They both [Thomas Jefferson and St. Thomas] tried to convert "Indians" to the teachings of Jesus.

The fact that you are still claiming this about Jefferson, despite the fact that it was completely debunked time and time again, just goes to show that you have no interest in history whatsoever.

Maybe in your own mind it was debunked. Here's what World Net and Dr. Kennedy say about the matter. Also you mentioned 388 treaties but Jefferson was only involved in about 40 of those treaties and I doubt they involved 40 separate tribes. I have to do more research on that.


"So what about the Jefferson Bible, that miracles-free version of the Scriptures? That, too, is a myth. It is not a Bible, but an abridgement of the Gospels created by Jefferson in 1804 for the benefit of the Indians. Jefferson's "Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted From the New Testament for the Use of the Indians" was a tool to evangelize and educate American Indians. There is no evidence that it was an expression of his skepticism.

Jefferson, who gave his money to assist missionary work among the Indians, believed his "abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians" would help civilize and educate America's aboriginal inhabitants. Nor did Jefferson cut all miracles from his work, as Beliles points out. While the original manuscript no longer exists, the Table of Texts that survives includes several accounts of Christ's healings."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28006

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

What evidence does Kennedy offer to support his idea that the Jefferson Bible was written merely to convert the heathen red man, because I can't find a word of it. In point of fact:

In an 1803 letter to Joseph Priestley, Jefferson states that he conceived the idea of writing his view of the "Christian System" in a conversation with Dr. Benjamin Rush during 1798–99. He proposes beginning with a review of the morals of the ancient philosophers, moving on to the ethics of the Jews, and concluding with the "principles of a pure deism" taught by Jesus, "omitting the question of his deity." Jefferson explains that he really doesn't have the time, and urges the task on Priestley as the person best equipped to accomplish the task.[3]

Jefferson accomplished a more limited goal in 1804 with “The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth,” the predecessor to Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.[4] He described it in a letter to John Adams dated 13 October 1813:

“ In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurges, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines. [3] ”

Jefferson frequently expressed discontent with this earlier version, however. The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth represents the fulfillment of his desire to produce a more carefully assembled edition.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible#Early_draft

No where does the entry mention a thing about Native Americans.

Oh dear, could we have caught "Dr." Kennedy, and by association, yourself, in yet another lie?

 

[joobz]

What evidence does Kennedy offer to support his idea that the Jefferson Bible was written merely to convert the heathen red man, because I can't find a word of it. In point of fact:



No where does the entry mention a thing about Native Americans.

Oh dear, could we have caught "Dr." Kennedy, and by association, yourself, in yet another lie?

That isn't the first time to be presented here. All we can do is continue to present the truth.

 

[joobz]

Maybe in your own mind it was debunked. Here's what World Net and Dr. Kennedy say about the matter.

Then he is wrong. Jefferson called the Bible a Pile of Poop.

 

[Ducky]

"So what about the Jefferson Bible, that miracles-free version of the Scriptures? That, too, is a myth. It is not a Bible, but an abridgement of the Gospels created by Jefferson in 1804 for the benefit of the Indians. Jefferson's "Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted From the New Testament for the Use of the Indians" was a tool to evangelize and educate American Indians. There is no evidence that it was an expression of his skepticism.

Completely false. The evidence can be found in post 2 of this thread.


Why do you continue to repost lies from Worldnetdaily.com?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Why do you continue to repost lies from Worldnetdaily.com?

Because it's the number one stop for all your far-right wing, theocratic propaganda needs?

 

[Cleon]

Maybe in your own mind it was debunked.

Mine and just about everyone else's. Except yours, but that's a given. You're not much for admitting error.

Here's what World Net and Dr. Kennedy say about the matter.

A right-wing propaganda rag and a proven liar. Yeah, I'm convinced, boy howdy.

 

[slingblade]

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

What continues to surprise me is just how much DOC is citing Kennedy to portray Jefferson as a pious, church-going, leader who wanted America to be a Christian nation when...

Kennedy's 1994 book, Character & Destiny: A Nation In Search of Its Soul, is riddled with attacks on the constitutional principle. Among other things, Kennedy calls church-state separation "diabolical," a "false doctrine" and "a lie" propagated by Thomas Jefferson.

Source:http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5936&abbr=cs_

So which is it: Jefferson the Theocrat who wanted all Americans to follow his Christian vision, or Jefferson the Secularist who created the very instrument that allow the lib-ruls, commies, and queer-mo-sexuals to destroy 'Merica in Satan's name?

 

[Ducky]

D James KEnnedy is not a source I would trust. He's a reconstructionist. HEre's a quote from one of his books "Character & Destiny: A Nation In Search of Its Soul (written with Jim Nelson Black)":

"This is our land. This is our world. This is our heritage, and with God's help, we shall reclaim this nation for Jesus Christ. And no power on earth can stop us." (p. 85)

And this one:

"If we are committed and involved in taking back the nation for Christian moral values, and if we are willing to risk the scorn of the secular media and the bureaucracy that stand against us, there is no doubt we can witness the dismantling of not just the Berlin Wall but the even more diabolical 'wall of separation' that has led to increasing secularization, godlessness, immorality, and corruption in our country." (p. 126-127)

Oh yeah. Impartial source of info for sure when it comes to the seperation of church and state.

 

[DOC]

Well if you don't like Kennedy as a source for the government giving money to support religious education for the Indians maybe this site will be more respected.

"Journal of American Indian Education" by Fredric Mitchell


"In the early 1880s the government began seriously to assess its role in Indian education. At that time, Indian education consisted of a considerable number of schools conducted by 20 or more different churches, all drawing substantial sums from the government."

"The history of the Catholic Church in Indian education dates from earliest times. Note has already been made of the subsidy granted a Catholic priest in the treaty of 1803 with the Kaskaskia Indians (See Note 2). The Catholic Church also came to dominate sectarian education under government auspices and eventually commanded three-fourths of all the funds appropriated by the Congress for this purposes(see Note 3).

http://jaie.asu.edu/v2/V2S3stat.htm

 

[Ducky]

Well if you don't like Kennedy as a source for the government giving money to support religion for the Indians maybe this site will be more respected.

"Journal of American Indian Education" by Fredric Mitchell

"The real significance lies rather in the fact that the money was distributed to churches to operate church schools. This was noted by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, whose office later took over from the War Department the job of distributing funds and supervising Indian education, and who figures importantly in the ensuing church-state conflict. The appropriation of 1820 for $12,000, he recorded, was distributed to 21 church schools."

"In the early 1880s the government began seriously to assess its role in Indian education. At that time, Indian education consisted of a considerable number of schools conducted by 20 or more different churches, all drawing substantial sums from the government."

http://jaie.asu.edu/v2/V2S3stat.htm

You will dishonestly quote mine anything, won't you?

The very next sentence in that link is this:

Soon after 1880, therefore, the Commissioner outlined in detail a comprehensive system of Indian education to be owned and controlled exclusively by the federal government.

 

[DOC]

You will dishonestly quote mine anything, won't you?

What do you do, monitor this thing 24 hours a day its 2:15 in the morning give me a chance to edit the thing which I did, reread the current post. Well I'll just go ahead and repost it to make it clearer. Now can go ahead and bash this history

"Journal of American Indian Education" by Fredric Mitchell


"In the early 1880s the government began seriously to assess its role in Indian education. At that time, Indian education consisted of a considerable number of schools conducted by 20 or more different churches, all drawing substantial sums from the government."

"The history of the Catholic Church in Indian education dates from earliest times. Note has already been made of the subsidy granted a Catholic priest in the treaty of 1803 with the Kaskaskia Indians (See Note 2). The Catholic Church also came to dominate sectarian education under government auspices and eventually commanded three-fourths of all the funds appropriated by the Congress for this purposes(see Note 3).

http://jaie.asu.edu/v2/V2S3stat.htm

 

[Ducky]

What do you do, monitor this thing 24 hours a day its 2:15 in the morning give me a chance to edit the thing which I did, reread the current post. Well I just go ahead and repost it.

And yet you STILL leave out the pertinent parts, which show this isn't an accepted or even regular practice of the government.

But with a change of administration, the government also made a radical change in Indian education policy. The Commissioner spelled out the new policy two years later in his report of 1891 as follows:

The policy of aiding church schools is one that has grown up as a matter of administration, having only a semblance of legislative authority. But the rapid development of the public-school system has brought the Government schools into a position where it is entirely feasible for them at an early day to assume the whole charge of Indian education, so far as it is carried on by the Government.

I cannot refrain from the expression of the earnest conviction that it is contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution of the United States . . . and utterly repugnant to our American institutions and to our American history to take from the public moneys funds for the support of sectarian institutions. I believe that the Government ought to assume, absolutely and completely, the control of Indian education, and these wards should be trained in the Government institutions with the specific end of fitting them for American citizenship, and that no moneys from the public Treasure should be devoted to sectarian or church institutions.

There is a rapidly growing public opinion shared by those who have heretofore received from the Government large sums of money for church schools, that the time is near at hand when the mixed system should be done away with. There should be no violent or sudden change, no action that can be construed as partial or unjust, but a gradual extension of the national system until it embraces the entire work. Meantime, the purpose of the office is to maintain practically the status quo, making no changes except such as are rendered necessary by circumstances.

In thus expressing my own personal convictions on this important question I believe I am giving expression to the American idea of the entire separation of church and state. (8:68-69)

This strong statement drew first attention to the violation of Constitutional guarantees separating church from state in the use of tax funds for the support of religious schools. It went further in stating the government's intention of bringing Indian education completely under federal control, and recommended that funds for the support of religious schools be cut off gradually but completely.

ETA:

Why the dishonest quote mining, DOC?

 

[DOC]

And yet you STILL leave out the pertinent parts, which show this isn't an accepted or even regular practice of the government.



ETA:

Why the dishonest quote mining, DOC?

I never knew US history was dishonest. Apparently the US government didn't understand Jefferson's wall of Separation all those years it was giving the Catholic Church 3/4 of the Indian Education Budget.

"The history of the Catholic Church in Indian education dates from earliest times. Note has already been made of the subsidy granted a Catholic priest in the treaty of 1803 with the Kaskaskia Indians (See Note 2). The Catholic Church also came to dominate sectarian education under government auspices and eventually commanded three-fourths of all the funds appropriated by the Congress for this purposes.(see Note 3).

http://jaie.asu.edu/v2/V2S3stat.htm