Has Michael Moore become a full blown Truther?

Only people who do not understand documentary film define it as such. People who I imagine could never have seen a documentary film before in their lives, or are just unable to see the tricks of persuasion documentary film makers use. It is not Michael Moore's fault that people do not understand the work he does.

His films are opinion pieces, as most documentary films are.



Um... what? Documentaries are NOT opinion pieces. Documentaries are a factual genre. It is expected that a documentary is factual. Indeed it's one of the requirements for the documentary category of the Academy Awards.

Basic film reception theory delves deeply in the genre of documentary filmmaking. Documentary filmmakers have an ethical obligation to ensure their work is as factual as possible. Certainly there is always bias. There's simply no such thing as a truly objective documentary. But it's quite a jump from "subjective" to "containing outright lies".

Indeed, documentary filmmakers employ a host of techniques for the sole purpose of convincing their audience that the information presented is factual. There's an entire category of film theory focused on it.

Robert Flaherty has been heavily criticised by filmmakers over the decades for the dishonest and manipulative fabrications presented in Nanook of the North - the first ever feature length documentary.

-Gumboot
 
I don't think there's any argument that the pilot who hit the Pentagon was a shabby pilot who pulled off a tricky manoeuvre to hit the Pentagon the way he did. With the knowledge we have today it's reasonably safe to say that he just got lucky, of course.


What was tricky about the maneouver AA77 performed before hitting the Pentagon?




All Richard Clarke's standing by the decision proves is that he approves of the political reasons why they were released. It doesn't change the fact that a large group of important witnesses were allowed to leave the country before the investigation into the crime had even properly begun, and three of them died shortly afterwards in the usual way incovenient royal family members die in Saudi Arabia.


I assume you're aware they were travelling on diplomatic passports, and thus the USA could not detain them?

-Gumboot
 
I said "most", as in "not all" and "there are exceptions". Some documentaries -- often fairly boring ones, unless you are really into the subject -- purport not to present the opinions and interpretations of the film maker, but claim to present the truth.


Simply by labelling your film as a documentary, you are claiming to present fact. The audience considers documentary a factual genre, as do filmmakers.




They may show graphs, present scientific arguments as to why the viewer should consider some things true and others false. Such films have a much more matter of factly style than most of the documentaries you might see. They require that the film maker needs to be much more careful and do far better research than for opinion pieces, as falsehoods are much more serious. They are also more likely to be used as propaganda.



Propaganda pieces rely primarily on emotion. They tend to be highly engaging, and use emotive gimmicks to manipulate the opinions of the viewer. A propaganda piece with a "matter of fact" style, employing "graphs and scientific arguments" would be a dismal failure.

Look to Michael Moore for a prime example. His films are excellent propaganda.



Loose Change is such a documentary film. It tries to disseminate the truth instead of merely presenting an opinion. It makes very definite statements about what is supposed to be possible and what is not. Dylan Avery definitely strikes me as a person who seems to think that documentary films all need to be 'facty' and 'neutral' and 'objective', which may be an explanation why a film school didn't see a talented film maker in him.


Have you seen Loose Change?



He made the wrong choice of style for his film, as he is piss-poor at doing research. A 'factual style' documentary film is much more likely to convince people, and therefore a film maker has a much greater responsibility for getting the facts correct.


Quite the opposite. An emotionally driven film is far more likely to convince people. Hence why it is used in Propaganda.


Michael Moore makes documentary films that are obviously (to anyone with a sligh understanding of documentary film making, or anyone who bothers to listen to his opinionated commentary) opinion pieces. His research is fairly good.


Except for all the "facts" he offers up that are wrong. And all of the lies and manipulations. Aside from that, yeah.




Dylan Avery makes documentary films that claim to correct widely held but incorrect views, tries to educate the public and make very definite claims and accusations. His research is so piss-poor that it denies even the most basic facts.


At least Dylan Avery presents "evidence" for his claims. Unlike Michael Moore.




A documentary film maker can distort and edit the truth as much as s/he wants and call it a documentary film, because that is the sort of film it is.


Only if they want to be labelled as an unethical propagandist by filmmakers. Which, incidentally, many people have claimed of Michael Moore. They've even proposed a distinct genre - Docu-ganda. Personally I think his films fit into the category of Mockumentary, as in they mock their audience.

-Gumboot
 
My statement may have been exaggerated, it was more based on emotion. But his sidling with terrorists should raise some concerns.

I'm not sure the links you posted even show that he did. What I saw were an expression of support for Moore from Hezbollah, a statement from his representative that business links would not be unreasonable, and three carefully mined quotes presented side by side to make it appear that Moore shares a common cause with Hezbollah. I'm not going to cry foul on Moore's behalf because it's a perfect example of the sort of tactics he uses himself, used against him, but it didn't seem to me to establish that Moore is "siding with terrorists".

Dave
 
October, 2003 is when it was published, long after the identities and backgrounds of the hijackers had been revealed. Here is George Tenet's public testimony from 2002 in which he goes over their backgrounds in some detail, including Flight 77.

Fair enough then, that puts Moore's just-asking-a-question clearly within the realm of Troofer stupidity.

He can't, which is why he didn't decide anything before first deferring to the FBI. You can read Clarke's testimony here.

He specifically notes that the Saudi Embassy asked to evacuate some people. He refused to approve the request until the FBI had reviewed it. And here is what he says in regards to the FBI and the bin Ladens:

None of the important Saudis alleged to have been involved in 9/11 were bin Ladens, so this testimony about bin Laden family members is beside the point. Nor does this touch on the central implausibility, that a couple of days after 9/11 Clarke and the FBI could already be reasonably certain no future investigation of the attack would lead them back to the Saudis present in the USA at the time.

It took much longer than two days to sort out all the details of the 9/11 money trail, the stock trading then seen as suspicious and so forth.

He later goes on to say that the FBI later still saw no reason to interview those individuals. It seems the FBI kept tabs on the bin Ladens in the country, and they didn't see anything that led them to believe they had anything to do with the attack. It sounds like they had plenty of information already on the bin Ladens in the US, and they hadn't found anything incriminating. An interview probably wasn't going to do much for them. The FBI, the experts on that particular issue, advised Clarke and he took their expert advice. And there has been nothing to show otherwise.

Why all this focus on the bin Ladens?

It shows that it is misleading to claim "the US Government" was complicit in a coverup. The US Government, in this case, was Richard Clark and the FBI, and they both evaluated the issue from a law enforcement/counterterrorism standpoint. Unless you have some evidence that Clarke, or the FBI, had any political pressure to release these individuals against their own better judgement, it would be pretty tough to claim that the flight was some sort of knowledgeable coverup, or even complicity in a Saudi coverup, on the part of the U.S. government.

As I said before, the idea that those who left could have been ruled out as having relevant information that fast is completely inconsistent with the time other aspects of the investigation required, and (dare I invoke it?) inconsistent with common sense.

I can't see any motive for the FBI to want them out of the country, however there's a clear motive for the Bush White House to get them out of the country - to maintain the existing friendly relations between the Bush and Saud families, and perhaps as a bonus to help insure that Saudi Arabia and 9/11 weren't linked in the public mind in any way that would make it difficult to garner support for the coming invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Plus, calling them "important witnesses" is quite begging the question. The entire point is whether they were witnesses to anything. The FBI said then, and still says, that they weren't important witnesses, and that there isn't any evidence that they were.

Claiming they could have known that at the time stretches credulity, to say the least.

Interesting if true, except that all that we have are two journalists as evidence that there was any connection between these three individuals and Al Qaida. As such, I would evaluate that as a "maybe." This Salon article casts a lot of doubt on those claims.

I don't see much there apart from arguments from incredulity ("Nobody in Saudi Arabia would help fund Al Qaeda... because if they got caught, it would look really bad!") and denials of any personal knowledge. The hypothesis that rogue neocons cooked the story up to try to break up relationships between the USA and Saudi Arabia seems to hang on assuming an implausible degree of naivety on the part of these supposed neocon plotters - has this story actually affected the state of the relationship between the USA and SA in any way? I don't see it if it has.

Even if it were true, it doesn't prove that the FBI had any reason to believe that those individuals were involved in the attacks. None of the three people you mention above were bin Ladens, and there was no indication that Saudi Royal Family members in the U.S. were part of the attack. Should we have questioned all the Saudis officials in the U.S. at the time?

A group of people, mostly Saudis, launches a very well-organised attack on the USA that kills three thousand people. The prime suspect, Osama bin Laden, is former businessman who once had close ties to the Saudi government. It would seem to be to be entirely reasonable to ask them to stay in the country while the investigation progresses in case it turns out they were somehow linked to the conspiracy.

The only argument I can see for letting them leave is the good old argument from incredulity. "Surely nobody would be dumb enough to support or coordinate terrorist cells like those that carried out 9/11 and not be out of the country when an attack occurred?". However proper criminal investigations don't work by dismissing every hypothesis you can come up with an argument from incredulity against.
 
Having just watched the clip, no, it does not clearly claim the KKK became the NRA. It does, however, imply that it did with the juxtaposition of the two and the description of the dates of the two groups' founding as "just a coincidence."



It's not just about the voice over. Film is a visual medium. An audience member is informed more by the visual information than voice over. And what is happening visually in the cartoon?

The little KKK characters take off their hoods and become NRA characters. That's pretty clear.

-Gumboot
 
I assume you're aware they were travelling on diplomatic passports, and thus the USA could not detain them?

Good point. Given the Bush government's scrupulous adherence to international and domestic law with regard to terrorist investigations, I cannot possibly imagine them ignoring such an important legal point, even in such trying circumstances as the days immediately after 9/11. Nor could I imagine them doing something like diverting their flight to Guantanamo, because even if it could be justified by some tortuous interpretation of the letter of international law, it would just be wrong.
 
I do NOT agree with everything Moore says, but I absolutely celebrate that I live in a country where this kind of communication is still allowed.


I agree. And it's great that others can take individuals to task for what they say. And it's great that others can defend the individuals against those that took them to task. And it's great that people can take the defenders to task for defending the individuals... and so forth...



If Moore comes right out and clearly states that he thinks 9/11 is an inside job, in pure twooferesque fashion? I'll nail his ass. BAM!


So what's the issue, that conspiracy theorists think the US Government carried out 9/11? Or that conspiracy theorists distort, manipulate, and cherry pick data to support something that isn't true, falling back on outright lies when all else fails?

-Gumboot
 
Good point. Given the Bush government's scrupulous adherence to international and domestic law with regard to terrorist investigations, I cannot possibly imagine them ignoring such an important legal point, even in such trying circumstances as the days immediately after 9/11. Nor could I imagine them doing something like diverting their flight to Guantanamo, because even if it could be justified by some tortuous interpretation of the letter of international law, it would just be wrong.



Diplomatic immunity is the oldest international custom in existence. Look at the international outcry that has resulted in the expulsion of the New Zealand high commissioner from Fiji. Countries only do what they think they can get away with. The USA isn't stupid enough to think it can get away with seizing diplomats.

-Gumboot
 
Admittedly, I haven't been following the thread. However, for the record I would like to point out that Michael Moore's claims regarding the Bin Laden family being transported out of the US whilst air traffic was still grounded, are waaaay off.

A simple reading of the 9/11 Commission report will explain it.
 
Diplomatic immunity is the oldest international custom in existence. Look at the international outcry that has resulted in the expulsion of the New Zealand high commissioner from Fiji. Countries only do what they think they can get away with. The USA isn't stupid enough to think it can get away with seizing diplomats.

Remember this was immediately after 9/11. I think the USA would have had near worldwide support in doing damn near anything if it was plausibly justified as part of the subsequent investigation. For that matter if the USA had leaned on the Saudi government to tell its people to stay put, or even to yank their diplomatic status, I think the Saudi government would have cooperated.

I don't find the idea that anybody left the country two days after 9/11 against the US government's wishes plausible. If they'd wanted them to stay in the country ways would have been found. I don't think they did want that.
 
Remember this was immediately after 9/11. I think the USA would have had near worldwide support in doing damn near anything if it was plausibly justified as part of the subsequent investigation.


I don't. I think it would have been tantamount to dousing the entire Middle East in petrol and throwing a match in.




For that matter if the USA had leaned on the Saudi government to tell its people to stay put, or even to yank their diplomatic status, I think the Saudi government would have cooperated.


I don't.

-Gumboot
 
Well that settles it. Time to pack up the wagons and go home people. We've all been wasting our time refuting Dylan and co's opinion pieces. Don't we feel foolish. Yup it's official, you can distort and edit the truth as much as you want and call it a documentary because everyone should remember that it's all just opinion. How stupid do we feel? :o

And to think that none of us here understand the difference between a statement of opinion:

"George Bush is the worst president ever!!!"

And a false statement of fact:

"George Bush faked the Apollo Moon Landing!!!"

Come on. If Moore says:

"Terrorism simply is not a serious problem in America,"

That's opinion. If Moore says:

"Bin Laden is a CIA agent."

That's a lie.

It's not that hard.
 
None of the important Saudis alleged to have been involved in 9/11 were bin Ladens, so this testimony about bin Laden family members is beside the point. Nor does this touch on the central implausibility, that a couple of days after 9/11 Clarke and the FBI could already be reasonably certain no future investigation of the attack would lead them back to the Saudis present in the USA at the time.

Alleged when? At that time, the only logical suspects on those flights would have been bin Ladens, not Saudi Royal Family officials. What reasons whatsoever would the FBI have had to suspect the Saudi Royal family, or Saudi government officials?

Why all this focus on the bin Ladens?

See above.


As I said before, the idea that those who left could have been ruled out as having relevant information that fast is completely inconsistent with the time other aspects of the investigation required, and (dare I invoke it?) inconsistent with common sense.

Before you worry about ruling them out, you'd have to have some reason to have them ruled in. There would have to be some reason to believe any of those people had knowledge of the 9/11 attacks. I don't see it as common sense that any of them would. It is no more common sense that Saudi officials would have inside knowledge of the 9/11 attacks than it is common sense that the US Government would have inside knowledge of the Oklahoma City bombing.

I can't see any motive for the FBI to want them out of the country, however there's a clear motive for the Bush White House to get them out of the country - to maintain the existing friendly relations between the Bush and Saud families, and perhaps as a bonus to help insure that Saudi Arabia and 9/11 weren't linked in the public mind in any way that would make it difficult to garner support for the coming invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

There is some motive for the Bush White House to want them out, but again, it goes back to the fact that it was Richard Clarke, the counterterrorism guru, along with the FBI, who made the decision, not George Bush. It seems they were the ones qualified to make that assessment, and they did. Richard Clarke approved it when he was satisfied that the FBI didn't need to question any of them. Nobody has come forward to suggest either he or the FBI were unduly pressured. As such, while the White House may have had some motive, the onus is squarely on the shoulders of Clarke and the FBI.


Plus, calling them "important witnesses" is quite begging the question. The entire point is whether they were witnesses to anything. The FBI said then, and still says, that they weren't important witnesses, and that there isn't any evidence that they were.

Claiming they could have known that at the time stretches credulity, to say the least.

For the bin Ladens, they very well might have. According to Clarke, they had been watching them closely for some time. As for the other Saudis, there would still have to be some reason to be suspicious of them beyond the fact that, they are from Saudi Arabia and so were the hijackers. That doesn't strike me as being a particurly valid reason to be suspicious of someone. A lot of Saudis are in the U.S. Should we have held all of them in the country?


A group of people, mostly Saudis, launches a very well-organised attack on the USA that kills three thousand people. The prime suspect, Osama bin Laden, is former businessman who once had close ties to the Saudi government. It would seem to be to be entirely reasonable to ask them to stay in the country while the investigation progresses in case it turns out they were somehow linked to the conspiracy.

Osama bin Laden, who was expelled from Saudi Arabia and had his citizenship revoked, and was a major critic and enemy of the Saudi Royal Family. So because he once had connections to the Saudi Government, we should have immediately assumed that anyone involved in the Saudi Government who was in the U.S. could be a witness? Why not question everyone at the Saudi Embassy then. Diplomatic immunity notwithstanding, it would have made as much sense to be suspicious of them.

The only argument I can see for letting them leave is the good old argument from incredulity. "Surely nobody would be dumb enough to support or coordinate terrorist cells like those that carried out 9/11 and not be out of the country when an attack occurred?". However proper criminal investigations don't work by dismissing every hypothesis you can come up with an argument from incredulity against.

How about the rationale that: there was no evidence or even reason to believe they were involved, they had legitimate fears about their safety, and they were citizens of a foreign country who have every right to leave if they aren't being held in relation to a crime.
 
And to think that none of us here understand the difference between a statement of opinion:

"George Bush is the worst president ever!!!"

And a false statement of fact:

"George Bush faked the Apollo Moon Landing!!!"

Come on. If Moore says:

"Terrorism simply is not a serious problem in America,"

That's opinion. If Moore says:

"Bin Laden is a CIA agent."

That's a lie.

It's not that hard.



I think everyone here appreciates the difference between opinion and fact. I think the issue is some people here thinks his films contain lies as well, and some people don't.

I don't have a problem with Michael Moore's opinions (well, okay I do, he's arrogant and rude, but then all of you Americans are, aren't you? :p), I have a problem with Michael Moore's lies.

-Gumboot
 
How about the rationale that: there was no evidence or even reason to believe they were involved, they had legitimate fears about their safety, and they were citizens of a foreign country who have every right to leave if they aren't being held in relation to a crime.
They did not have every right to leave. Air traffic was closed down. No Saudi persons left the United States until the air travel ban was lifted.

See this:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp

And this:
9/11 Commission Report - Page 329
"First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopening of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001..

"Second, we found no evidence of political intervention. We found no evidence that anyone at the White House above the level of Richard Clarke participated in a decision on the departure of Saudi nationals..

"Third, we believe that the FBI conducted a satisfactory screening of Saudi nationals who left the United States on charter flights.."

Again though, I have only really skimmed over the thread and I may be missing your point. Sorry if I have.
 
They did not have every right to leave. Air traffic was closed down. No Saudi persons left the United States until the air travel ban was lifted.

I know, although the link you posted contradicts that. The travel ban was lifted on September 13th, which is before they flew out. In fairness, mainstream commercial traffic hadn't started that day, but airspace was re-opened for certain flights.

By saying they had "every right" to leave, I wasn't speaking to the air traffic issue. Merely that there wasn't any investigative reason to hold them in the country. They had every right to move freely and return to their home country, and there was no reason to prevent them from doing so if they had legitimate safety concerns (and I think they did).

EDIT: Okay, nevermind I see what your original post was saying. Yes, no Saudis left while the air ban was in effect, including the flights in question. Neither here nor there on my point in the thread, but worth pointing out I suppose.
 
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By saying they had "every right" to leave, I wasn't speaking to the air traffic issue. Merely that there wasn't any investigative reason to hold them in the country. They had every right to move freely and return to their home country, and there was no reason to prevent them from doing so if they had legitimate safety concerns (and I think they did).

Ah ok, I agree with you on that then.
 
Only people who do not understand documentary film define it as such. People who I imagine could never have seen a documentary film before in their lives, or are just unable to see the tricks of persuasion documentary film makers use. It is not Michael Moore's fault that people do not understand the work he does.

His films are opinion pieces, as most documentary films are.



You've made these statements numerous times. They're not true. I have seen documentaries before - many. I am aware of the tricks of persuasion documentary film makers use. Indeed, I've employed them myself. I understand precisely the work he does.

-Gumboot
 

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