Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[Foster Zygote]

What does White Pride have to do with Christianity?

My next step was to seek outside help from the Minnesota branch of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). I sent a brief letter to the ACLU-MN summarizing my case and asking if they were interested. They initially said they were willing to review the case, so I sent them pages of documentation. I thought I might have a chance since the ACLU prides itself on defending the rights of the little guy. I am white, male, heterosexual, married, employed, native born, English speaking, Christian-valued, have no criminal record, and am a retired law enforcement officer. I could be the perfect “token” case outside their mainstream clientele, or at least I thought so.

It looks like you'll need to obtain a copy of Mr. Moritz's letter to the Minnesota ACLU to answer your question.

 

[Foster Zygote]

However, I have absolutely no reason to believe this ever occured.

I think that Mr. Moritz probably did send his letter and the Minnesota ACLU simply responded that he had no case. Open/shut.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC

Also, I've shown 3 sources that Jefferson went to Christian services in the congressional building so I know that is a false statement. A false statement is a false statement no matter what name you use.

You've shown me one wiki page, and something form a very suspect source (ie, Dr. Kennedy's website) which we have shown repeatedly does not care to fact check itself. Try again.

I've already dealt with all of this so the following is just a word for word repeat of what I said way back in post #780.


Originally Posted by DOC

5. The fact that Jefferson went to Christian services in the Rotunda of Congress building.

You have never, despite my repeated requests, shown a source for this other than one line in a publicly edited wiki. Therefore it is suspect until you show proper evidence.

Where have you been, I've already given the website (which includes sources) for this fact.



"Jefferson attended church at the Capitol while he was Vice President 5 and also throughout his presidency. The first Capitol church service that Jefferson attended as President was a service preached by Jefferson’s friend, the Rev. John Leland, on January 3, 1802. 6 Significantly, Jefferson attended that Capitol church service just two days after he penned his famous letter containing the “wall of separation between church and state” metaphor.

MANASSEH CUTLER
U. S. Rep. Manasseh Cutler, who also attended church at the Capitol, recorded in his own diary that “He [Jefferson] and his family have constantly attended public worship in the Hall.” 7 Mary Bayard Smith, another attendee at the Capitol services, confirmed: “Mr. Jefferson, during his whole administration, was a most regular attendant.” 8 She noted that Jefferson even had a designated seat at the Capitol church: “The seat he chose the first Sabbath, and the adjoining one (which his private secretary occupied), were ever afterwards by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him and his secretary.” 9 Jefferson was so committed to those services that he would not even allow inclement weather to dissuade him; as Rep. Cutler noted: “It was very rainy, but his [Jefferson’s] ardent zeal brought him through the rain and on horseback to the Hall.” 10 Other diary entries confirm Jefferson’s attendance in spite of bad weather. 11

SOURCES:


[5] Bishop Claggett’s (Episcopal Bishop of Maryland) letter of February 18, 1801, reveals that, as vice- President, Jefferson went to church services in the House. Available in the Maryland Diocesan Archives.

[6] William Parker Cutler and Julia Perkins Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence of Rev. Manasseh Cutler (Cincinnati: Colin Robert Clarke & Co., 1888), Vol. II, p. 66, 119, letter to Joseph Torrey, January 4, 1802. Cutler meant that Jefferson attended church on January 3, 1802, for the first time as President. Bishop Claggett’s letter of February 18, 1801, already revealed that as Vice-President, Jefferson went to church services in the House.

[7] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 119, in a letter to Dr. Joseph Torrey on January 3, 1803; see also his entry of December 12, 1802 (Vol. II, p. 113).

[8] Smith, The First Forty Years, p. 13.

[9] Smith, The First Forty Years, p. 13.

[10] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 119, in a letter to Dr. Joseph Torrey on January 3, 1803; see also his entry of December 26, 1802 (Vol. II, p. 114).

[11] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 114, December 26, 1802.


From the article "Church in the U.S. Capitol" by David Barton

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resource...D=123#_ednref5

End of Repeat of post 780

So above are 3 sources that I already mentioned in post 780. And Ducky mentioned the Wiki source. So there are 4 sources and they all have nothing to do with Dr. Kennedy.

 

[Ducky]

So, that's a no on the direct sources from Jefferson's writings then?

Also, you once again used David Barton, and we have repeatedly shown him to not care about facts.



DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT HAVE ANY REFERENCE TO THIS ACTIVITY FROM JEFFERSON'S WRITINGS?!

I am not interested in hearsay, I am interested in actual evidence. If Jefferson did this as often as you say, then he surely commented about it in his very prolific writing.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Even if Jefferson was seen at church services, how do you counter the numerous quotes by the man himself that are critical of religion in general and Christianity in particular? Your original claim that Thomas Jefferson admired and supported Christianity has been refuted with facts. You are left with two clear options: You can either accept that Jefferson did not share your feelings regarding Christianity and its role in government, or you can delude yourself by refusing to acknowledge facts.

 

[Ducky]

Even if Jefferson was seen at church services, how do you counter the numerous quotes by the man himself that are critical of religion in general and Christianity in particular? Your original claim that Thomas Jefferson admired and supported Christianity has been refuted with facts. You are left with two clear options: You can either accept that Jefferson did not share your feelings regarding Christianity and its role in government, or you can delude yourself by refusing to acknowledge facts.

Part of why I demand a direct source from DOC from Jefferson's writings is that he would HAVE to encounter what Jefferson wrote about Christianity in searching for whether he wrote about going to services.

Someone as prolific a writer as Jefferson, and as opinionated as he was about Christianity would certainly have something to write about his attending a service.

 

[joobz]

Part of why I demand a direct source from DOC from Jefferson's writings is that he would HAVE to encounter what Jefferson wrote about Christianity in searching for whether he wrote about going to services.

Someone as prolific a writer as Jefferson, and as opinionated as he was about Christianity would certainly have something to write about his attending a service.

The man rewrote the bible(see Jefferson_bible^WP) to just the essentials, because he found all of the mystical religious stuff too silly.

he likened the effort of this paring down as that

which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill

Last time I checked, a deeply christian man wouldn't refer to the bible as a pile of poo poo.

 

[Ducky]

The man rewrote the bible(see Jefferson_bible^WP) to just the essentials, because he found all of the mystical religious stuff too silly.

he likened the effort of this paring down as that


Last time I checked, a deeply christian man wouldn't refer to the bible as a pile of poo poo.

YEs, we linked all of that on the 2nd post of this thread. DOC doesn't like inconvenient facts.

 

[Questioninggeller]

From the Website "Political Correctness Watch"

"In March 2005, the ACLU not only turned my case down but took the opportunity to slam white people and Christians. Renee Hamilton, legal assistant for the ACLU-MN, wrote:

"Thus, when the PTO examined Moritz's mark, their rejection of his mark was reasonable given that such a slogan has just but one meaning i.e. superiority of what he term (sic) `the white race' over all other races and their brand of Christianity over the other religions."

http://pcwatch.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html.

It seems "Political Correctness Watch" subtitled "The creeping dictatorship of the Left..." is ran by John Ray (Source).

It seems he not only is paranoid of what he feels are "leftists" and "socialists" but he also has "many . . . posts here make severe criticisms of medical research" (His example for it is a claim made about stomach ulcers before the invention of the light bulb). It looks like a conspiracy website with its poor sources mixed with vague accusations and paranoia. You should becareful before using someone's blog as a reliable source for your claims. (That seems to be a recurring theme in this thread.)

 

[joobz]

YEs, we linked all of that on the 2nd post of this thread. DOC doesn't like inconvenient facts.

I have no doubt that this point (being most obvious) has already been made. I was just hoping that restating some facts may be helpful. While evidence is mounting against this, I am still giving DOC the benefit of the doubt that he is interested in the truth.

 

[Ducky]

I have no doubt that this point (being most obvious) has already been made. I was just hoping that restating some facts may be helpful. While evidence is mounting against this, I am still giving DOC the benefit of the doubt that he is interested in the truth.

Oh DOC reads our posts. I can show evidence of it. He just ignores all that is inconveniently contrary to his wacky beliefs.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Part of why I demand a direct source from DOC from Jefferson's writings is that he would HAVE to encounter what Jefferson wrote about Christianity in searching for whether he wrote about going to services.

Someone as prolific a writer as Jefferson, and as opinionated as he was about Christianity would certainly have something to write about his attending a service.

Yes, but then he doesn't seem to check any facts. He simply regurgitates what he reads on certain websites without any critical investigation. If he wants to believe it then that's good enough for him.

 

[Ducky]

Yes, but then he doesn't even seem to check any facts. He simply regurgitates what he reads on certain websites without any critical investigation.

OH sure. One could take his posting habits here as evidence he works for the Wallbuilder's site, or Kennedy or Barton. That's all he quotes. We've shown all of his sources to be lacking in the fact-checking dept. He doesn't care.

And as pointed out in my last post (#1151), he does read the posts. He certainly reads them enough to rip off people's insults. He just ignores what he doesn't like.

 

[Foster Zygote]

It seems "Political Correctness Watch" subtitled "The creeping dictatorship of the Left..." is ran by John Ray (Source).

It seems he not only is paranoid of what he feels are "leftists" and "socialists" but he also has "many . . . posts here make severe criticisms of medical research" (His example for it is a claim made about stomach ulcers before the invention of the light bulb). It looks like a conspiracy website with its poor sources mixed with vague accusations and paranoia. You should becareful before using someone's blog as a reliable source for your claims. (That seems to be a recurring theme in this thread.)

One thing in this blog that caught my attention is the claim that Hitler was a left-wing socialist.

 

[Foster Zygote]

OH sure. One could take his posting habits here as evidence he works for the Wallbuilder's site, or Kennedy or Barton. That's all he quotes. We've shown all of his sources to be lacking in the fact-checking dept. He doesn't care.

And as pointed out in my last post (#1151), he does read the posts. He certainly reads them enough to rip off people's insults. He just ignores what he doesn't like.

I guess we know which of the two options I mentioned he'll take.

 

[Ducky]

Indeed. He'll take the one that requires no testicular fortitude.

 

[joobz]

Indeed. He'll take the one that requires no testicular fortitude.

As much as I would like to agree with you,
DOC was responding to a post by bigles, which also contained that phrase.

So, as far as I can tell, his use of that ballsy phrase is no indication that he has read your posts.

 

[Ducky]

As much as I would like to agree with you,
DOC was responding to a post by bigles, which also contained that phrase.

So, as far as I can tell, his use of that ballsy phrase is no indication that he has read your posts.

oh well. It was almost something.

well, he'll still lack testicular fortitude, plagiarism or not.

 

[DOC]

Also, you once again used David Barton, and we have repeatedly shown him to not care about facts.

Just like you showed Sekulow lied -- I still waiting for that for the "Where, where, where" on that one. Why don't you leave some post numbers when you say we've shown this, and we've shown that; otherwise its empty coming from you.

And as far as historian David Barton goes, he probably cares more about sources and facts than all of us put together.

DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT HAVE ANY REFERENCE TO THIS ACTIVITY FROM JEFFERSON'S WRITINGS?

I am not interested in hearsay, I am interested in actual evidence. If Jefferson did this as often as you say, then he surely commented about it in his very prolific writing.

Not necessarily, I've been to church at least 500 times in my life and I've never written a single word about it (until now). I read a book by Billy Graham about a year ago and I don't remember one sentence about him going to church in there. The fact that we have eye witness accounts of his congressional building church going is impressive -- especially the eyewitness account of a Congressional representative. The preponderance of the evidence clearly points to a church going Jefferson, especially during his presidency.

 

[Ducky]

Just like you showed Sekulow lied -- I still waiting for that for the "Where, where, where" on that one. Why don't you leave some post numbers when you say we've shown this, and we've shown that; otherwise its empty coming from you.

Pick a page in this thread, DOC. On it you will find posts showing Barton or Kennedy to be full of it. I am not going to play your game of rehashing this entire thread because you have refused to acknowledge the posts refuting your position.

Not necessarily, I've been to church at least 500 times in my life and I've never written a single word about it (until now). I read a book by Billy Graham about a year ago and I don't remember one sentence about him going to church in there. The fact that we have eye witness accounts of his congressional building church going is impressive -- especially the eyewitness account of a Congressional representative. The preponderance of the evidence clearly points to a church going Jefferson, especially during his presidency.

The Billy Graham non-sequitur. DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT HAVE DIRECT WRITINGS FROM JEFFERSON REFERRING TO HIS ACTIVITIES ATTENDING CHURCH IN THE ROTUNDA?!

Also, are you going to acknowledge the Jefferson Bible? Or the many quotes you have been given since post #2 in this thread showing Jefferson to be disdainful (to put it lightly) of Christianity?