9/11 Physics from Non-Experts

[pomeroo]

You are suggesting that I couldn't stand up for my secret CD conclusion? You don't know me and your accusation is offensive.

If I do eventually conclude that a gravity driven collapse was unlikely, I'll definitely let you know.

You disingenuously claimed that you were not a twoofer. It is clear that you will be informing us that a gigantic, mathematically-impossible conspiracy blew up the buildings. You will not explain what EVERY demolition expert in the world gets wrong. Your attitude is highly offensive.

 

[GregoryUrich]

You disingenuously claimed that you were not a twoofer. It is clear that you will be informing us that a gigantic, mathematically-impossible conspiracy blew up the buildings. You will not explain what EVERY demolition expert in the world gets wrong. Your attitude is highly offensive.

For you there is only twoofers, liars, and people who agree with you. I am neither a twoofer, a non-twoofer, a liar, or a closed minded JREF nit-pick.

Are you upset about my sarcastic post regarding "arguments not to use against twoofers"? I said I had become a non-truther (i.e. against the truth). It's called irony.

Any opinion or fact that doesn't agree with your "spoon fed by the Kean commission" bedtime story is for you offensive. Not much I can do about that.

It's time for you to prove your claim of mathematical impossibility.

 

[WildCat]

Any opinion or fact that doesn't agree with your "spoon fed by the Kean commission" bedtime story is for you offensive. Not much I can do about that.

Troofers always rail on about the 9/11 Commission report, yet whan asked none seems to be able to find a significant error in it. Can you point one out an error in the "Kean Commission" report you dismiss so readily?

 

[pomeroo]

For you there is only twoofers, liars, and people who agree with you. I am neither a twoofer, a non-twoofer, a liar, or a closed minded JREF nit-pick.

You are a disingenuous twoofer.

Are you upset about my sarcastic post regarding "arguments not to use against twoofers"? I said I had become a non-truther (i.e. against the truth). It's called irony.

If you're referring to your ham-fisted efforts to disguise your beliefs, it's called bad acting.

Any opinion or fact that doesn't agree with your "spoon fed by the Kean commission" bedtime story is for you offensive. Not much I can do about that.

Stop pretending that you have any interest in what really happened on 9/11/01.

It's time for you to prove your claim of mathematical impossibility.

Yeah, I suppose it is: it's been over a week since the last time I proved it.

Ahem. Let's take an ordinary human who has a fifty-percent chance of revealing a secret. Pair him with another ordinary human and the chance the secret gets out rises to seventy-five percent. But that won't do.

For our gigantic conspiracy, we will employ only G. Gordon Liddy/James Bond types. You'd have to pull out their fingernails to make these guys spill the beans. We'll assign each one a probability of .9 of keeping the secret. Now, take a hundred such characters and--oops! The secret gets out 99.997 % of the time. Hmmm, that won't do either. We'll raise our super-agents' ability to keep their dark secret to .95, and now the truth is revealed only 99.4% of the time.

This isn't going well for the fantasy side. I know: we'll make them all demigods and boost their ability to keep a secret to .97! We'll overlook the fact that finding these extraordinary specimens might prove tricky. This truly special group will let the cat out of the bag a mere 95.2% of the time.

But right at this juncture, when your prospects of being taken seriously have skyrocketed to almost five percent, an inconvenient problem arises. Your imaginary conspiracy does not consist of a hundred evildoers. It must number in the thousands. The list has been posted many times, and will not be repeated here in full, but this invisible army has to, just for starters, cow into silence all the Democrats in the military (we will assume that EVERY Republican in the military is eager to sign off on mass murder), the FAA, the air traffic controllers, all the researchers at NIST, FEMA, the members of ASCE, the forensic examiners, the fire and police departments of NYC and Washington, D.C., the seismologists at the Lamont-Doherty labs, the editors who printed the passenger manifests, the Boeing Corporation--this list gets m-u-c-h longer.

But we'll reduce the number of people complicit in this heinous crime to an implausibly low estimate of five hundred. We'll also raise their probability of keeping mum to an absurd .99. Guess what? The secret gets out 99.3% of the time.

And in almost six years ABSOLUTELY NO ONE has talked.

Sure, that could happen. Thousands of ordinary people would have no motive to blow the whistle on a mass murder of their compatriots. The gigantic invisible army (who funds it, incidentally?) intimidates, well, everyone.

I call it, The Impossibly Vast Conspiracy.

 

[Apollo20]

A mistake in the Kean Report?

How about page 305. "At 9:58:59, the South Tower collapsed in ten seconds..."

 

[GregoryUrich]

Yeah, I suppose it is: it's been over a week since the last time I proved it.

Ahem. Let's take an ordinary human who has a fifty-percent chance of revealing a secret. Pair him with another ordinary human and the chance the secret gets out rises to seventy-five percent. But that won't do.

For our gigantic conspiracy, we will employ only G. Gordon Liddy/James Bond types. You'd have to pull out their fingernails to make these guys spill the beans. We'll assign each one a probability of .9 of keeping the secret. Now, take a hundred such characters and--oops! The secret gets out 99.997 % of the time. Hmmm, that won't do either. We'll raise our super-agents' ability to keep their dark secret to .95, and now the truth is revealed only 99.4% of the time.

This isn't going well for the fantasy side. I know: we'll make them all demigods and boost their ability to keep a secret to .97! We'll overlook the fact that finding these extraordinary specimens might prove tricky. This truly special group will let the cat out of the bag a mere 95.2% of the time.

But right at this juncture, when your prospects of being taken seriously have skyrocketed to almost five percent, an inconvenient problem arises. Your imaginary conspiracy does not consist of a hundred evildoers. It must number in the thousands. The list has been posted many times, and will not be repeated here in full, but this invisible army has to, just for starters, cow into silence all the Democrats in the military (we will assume that EVERY Republican in the military is eager to sign off on mass murder), the FAA, the air traffic controllers, all the researchers at NIST, FEMA, the members of ASCE, the forensic examiners, the fire and police departments of NYC and Washington, D.C., the seismologists at the Lamont-Doherty labs, the editors who printed the passenger manifests, the Boeing Corporation--this list gets m-u-c-h longer.

But we'll reduce the number of people complicit in this heinous crime to an implausibly low estimate of five hundred. We'll also raise their probability of keeping mum to an absurd .99. Guess what? The secret gets out 99.3% of the time.

And in almost six years ABSOLUTELY NO ONE has talked.

Sure, that could happen. Thousands of ordinary people would have no motive to blow the whistle on a mass murder of their compatriots. The gigantic invisible army (who funds it, incidentally?) intimidates, well, everyone.

I call it, The Impossibly Vast Conspiracy.

I do not propose any likely scenario for a conspiracy, but your theory is completely full of holes. The level of any possible conspiracy has not been established. Maybe it was as small as Cheny and Rumsfeld. Maybe it was as simple as knowing it was going to happen and scheduling the war games. My main point is that almost no one needed to know they were involved.

If it was larger maybe people aren't willing to lose their jobs or worse. Take the cowed democrats for example. Maybe sending anthrax to two leading democrats scares the **** out of people.

For CD to be a possiblity, according to Bazant (i.e. if one floor fails, all floors fail) you only need to plant cutter charges on one floor (47 columns) somewhere between the 79th and 96th floor. I'm no demolition expert, but I can't imagine it would take more than two guys. Maybe al Qaeda infiltrated Jeb's security company. If they were insiders, maybe they have the firm conviction that they are saving peoples lives by bringing the towers straight down rather than having them fall sideways.

Remember, your argument applies to al Qaeda also. How many leaders, handlers and planners were in on it? None of them have talked either.

Either way you slice it, your theory falls apart.

 

[R.Mackey]

For CD to be a possiblity, according to Bazant (i.e. if one floor fails, all floors fail) you only need to plant cutter charges on one floor (47 columns) somewhere between the 79th and 96th floor. I'm no demolition expert, but I can't imagine it would take more than two guys. Maybe al Qaeda infiltrated Jeb's security company. If they were insiders, maybe they have the firm conviction that they are saving peoples lives by bringing the towers straight down rather than having them fall sideways.

Remember, your argument applies to al Qaeda also. How many leaders, handlers and planners were in on it? None of them have talked either.

Either way you slice it, your theory falls apart.

That's a gross oversimplification. For CD to be a possibility, you need these other things that you've conveniently neglected:

• Cutter charges that survive the biggest office fires ever
• Cutter charges that weren't dislodged, or wiring damaged, by the impact
• Cutter charges unseen by the thousands of people working there
• Cutter charges that caused exterior columns to slowly bow over the course of a half-hour
• Cutter charges that didn't go BANG

...etc. The NIST report may not, by itself, eliminate all possibility of explosives. But then it's hard to prove a negative. What it does prove is that no such charges were necessary, and the phenomenon matches expectations.

I've found your comments on tower mass interesting, some even plausible. This is not.

ETA: By the way, your comment that "Al-Qaeda also hasn't talked" is totally wrong. bin Laden has issued numerous video statements claiming responsibility, and the Martyrdom Videos have aired for most if not all of the hijackers themselves. It's here on the Forum.

 

[WildCat]

A mistake in the Kean Report?

How about page 305. "At 9:58:59, the South Tower collapsed in ten seconds..."

Perhaps you missed the word "significant"? The 9/11 Commission Report was not even concerned with the mechanics of collapses, but with the governments failures to prevent the attacks from happening and succeeding.

So how's that investigation into the iron spherules coming along Frank? Have you turned 120 years of high-rise construction on its head yet with your findings?

 

[GregoryUrich]

Troofers always rail on about the 9/11 Commission report, yet whan asked none seems to be able to find a significant error in it. Can you point one out an error in the "Kean Commission" report you dismiss so readily?

The most obvious errors are errors of omission and failure to investigate. For example, most of the family steering committee's questions were unanswered. There are contradictions between the "Kean Commision" report and the NIST reports. If you can't find anything yourself, you are not looking.

You could start at http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/.

 

[Gravy]

The most obvious errors are errors of omission and failure to investigate. For example, most of the family steering committee's questions were unanswered. There are contradictions between the "Kean Commision" report and the NIST reports. If you can't find anything yourself, you are not looking.

You could start at http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/.

Of the things that are in the report, can you point to anything substantial that's wrong? For example, connections between the 9/11 terrorists, their extensive training, planning, travels, and their actions on 9/11?

 

[GregoryUrich]

That's a gross oversimplification. For CD to be a possibility, you need these other things that you've conveniently neglected:

• Cutter charges that survive the biggest office fires ever
• Cutter charges that weren't dislodged, or wiring damaged, by the impact
• Cutter charges unseen by the thousands of people working there
• Cutter charges that caused exterior columns to slowly bow over the course of a half-hour
• Cutter charges that didn't go BANG

...etc. The NIST report may not, by itself, eliminate all possibility of explosives. But then it's hard to prove a negative. What it does prove is that no such charges were necessary, and the phenomenon matches expectations.

I've found your comments on tower mass interesting, some even plausible. This is not.

ETA: By the way, your comment that "Al-Qaeda also hasn't talked" is totally wrong. bin Laden has issued numerous video statements claiming responsibility, and the Martyrdom Videos have aired for most if not all of the hijackers themselves. It's here on the Forum.

Like I've said again and again, and repeated above, I'm not trying to prove CD or CT. I was just giving an example of how less than 500 people would need to be involved.

Regarding al Qaeda, who talked besides the dead guys and the right handed fat guy who only looks slightly like Usama bin Ladin?

 

[R.Mackey]

But it's just not that simple.

Who else? Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh for starters. Their story is infinitely more credible than a coordinated mixture of aircraft and planted explosives, too.

 

[Corsair 115]

I'm no demolition expert, but I can't imagine it would take more than two guys. (emphasis added)

Therein lies the problem with your assessment. When one is not familiar with all the various technical aspects of a particular industry or occupation, it is easy, and perhaps even natural, to greatly oversimplify the tasks actually required by that industry/occupation.

I'm confident, for example, the average layperson who has no experience with how things are printed and published probably thinks those annoying flyers you get in your mailbox from a major retail chain are no big deal to create either. In reality, it's a large industry and a significant undertaking involving a lot of technical aspects.

 

[beachnut]

Like I've said again and again, and repeated above, I'm not trying to prove CD or CT. I was just giving an example of how less than 500 people would need to be involved.

Regarding al Qaeda, who talked besides the dead guys and the right handed fat guy who only looks slightly like Usama bin Ladin?

Class, which hand do Islamic people use in public? Right

Does everyone know why? Yes, except GregoryUrich, the expert EE with very expert research capabilities. What does he know that we missed?

500, where did you pick that number from? And did you use your left hand? 500, not 4400, but 500. <500. Do you have a list? I have 19 people who were in on it, and a few support people, but I wonder if those who knew the whole story were only 7 to 10 people. I forgot how many trained as pilots.

So you post a letter on a woo woo journal of 9/11 junk and now profess you are just a... what? I find, unless you make it clear about your intent, posting on a site of junk supports those false ideas. You are a CD supporter by default. A thermite junkie. There is more evidence for that, than CD.

Right handed stuff is weak. And being left handed in Islam means never eating with you left hand (in public)! Darn. And you thought Catholic left handed kids had it bad.

You could start at http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/.

So you post the list of nuts. Which ones are the ones with the truth? Any of these Patriots have any idea what is going on. How many of those listed know idiots are using them as examples for 9/11 truth? But then, which ones have anything of substance. Your right hand stuff pretty much makes you a poor researcher, and a push over to fall for lies of 9/11. Wesley Clack a truther? He sure does not know how to plan ahead, I worked with him in a little war, he was not very great. What a list.

Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force - woo woo. This guy has zero stuff on 9/11, next.

Lt. Col. Jeff Latas, U.S. Air Force (ret) – woo woo two - he is a member of "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers." Not one theory of person to blame, so say PFT. ZIP. But that is a lie, their leader claims 77 did not hit the Pentagon. WOO to the max, since DNA and FDR prove 77 did. Thousand of pieces of evidence make the entire PFT null and void.

Please tell me you have something better than this web site of junk 9/11 stuff. You are a truther, and you continue ot post truther stuff. http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/ the web site of many woos. Should I check on more?

Could not find one fact to back up anything from 9/11 truth from http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/. Perfect record of zero. 0

Truther 0 - Terrrorist 3.

Why not tell me which ones are the ones you think have something so I can see why you are wrong again. Who is your favorite person in the 9/11 truth movement?

 

[stateofgrace]

Like I've said again and again, and repeated above, I'm not trying to prove CD or CT. I was just giving an example of how less than 500 people would need to be involved.

I would like to put a bit of perspective on this for you. You say less than 500 people; ok let’s go along with this. Can you imagine a single person being approached and willing to go along with a plan to commit mass murder of 3000 of his/hers own citizens? Just one, then add another person and another until you get it up to the final figure you wish to put on it. So beforehand you have recruited an unknown amount of people that are prepared to carry out mass murder on your behalf. You are now relying upon an unknown, that unknown is whether or not these people will remain loyal to you, do as you ask and carry this out. Unless every single person that is approached to do this keeps quiet and is completely loyal to you it is game over before it starts.

So ok you get over the first hurdle and you have recruited a band of totally loyal people that are prepared to face certain death by the gas chamber if caught and carry out mass murder for you. Now comes the second hurdle, actually doing the prep work beforehand and not getting caught. Not being seen planting explosives inside the towers or WTC 7 or which ever other building you believe was blown up. This is all done before any planes are involved and done in total secrecy.

So, ok having over come these two hurdles, you have recruited a band of highly trained completely loyal people who are going to commit mass murder for you and they have prepped the site in total secretary. The next hurdle is the planes, knowing exactly when and where they are going to hit the towers, knowing that they are going to miss all the explosives and that they will not knock over the building immediately. You have to know that any fires that were caused will not damage the explosives and you have know that the fires themselves will not be intense enough to cause further damage which would inadvertently lead to a catastrophic structural failure, which is actually what you want anyway.

From there on it is easy, simply wait for suicidal hijackers to fly the planes into the buildings and your men then swing into action, that being on your behave they commit mass murder of 3000 of their fellow countrymen. Of course this was done in front of the entire planet so the structural failure of each of these building which you actually want to happen has to look as though it was caused by the planes and the fires, rather than your group of loyal mass murderers.

Everybody then packs up and heads off home, where they remain for years and years, totally loyal to you, not saying a word. They have absolutely no guilt,no feelings of remorse and keep their mouths shut for years, nearly six years in fact.

Now, would you feel happy to rely on so many unknowns to keep you out of the gas chamber?

 

[GregoryUrich]

Questions regarding CDL, SDL and LL

Mackey, or anyone else,

I'm trying to work out the dead loads from the design docs in NIST. I have found unit dead load (CDL + SDL) for outside of the core for everything except the sublevels. I can't find a unit dead load for inside the core.

In NCSTAR1-1A there are some scanned design documents on pgs. 7-9 but there isn't any summary like there is for outside the core. I'm contemplating using the SDLs from 1-2A pg. 137 which is simplified for NIST's model. I assume these include floor topping, ceiling, and partitions. There are a few issues regarding dead loads in the core which I'm unsure about.

1. The service and elevator shaft areas are not listed. These are mostly empty but have ducts, elevator tracks, electrical cables, plumbing, etc. How can I come up with a reasonable estimate for these?

2. Regarding core column fire proofing, I am considering using 2" gypsum everywhere. This will be a pain in the butt because I need to calculate the surface area for all of the columns but such is life. I am planning on ignoring tile because the majority of columns are unexposed.

3. Is it reasonable to assume spray on fire proofing for the floor beams and steel deck?

Regarding live loads:

The probalistic average live loads in accord with Choi (1989) "Live load model for office buildings" are around 10 psf. With 200 persons on a floor (floor area outside the core), which would give 155 sq ft/person so the weight per person is 1550. If anything, computers have gotten lighter and there is less paper so I think it is reasonable. Choi gets into predicting maximum loads which is the primary reason for "over designing". For example, you can't have the floor cave in just because 20 people crowd someones cubicle at a christmas party.

Choi doesn't include loads for partitions, but the design documents give an NY code uniform equivalent of 6 psf. This would give a total of 16 psf for live load outside the core. Do you think this is reasonable?

 

[GregoryUrich]

Therein lies the problem with your assessment. When one is not familiar with all the various technical aspects of a particular industry or occupation, it is easy, and perhaps even natural, to greatly oversimplify the tasks actually required by that industry/occupation.

I'm confident, for example, the average layperson who has no experience with how things are printed and published probably thinks those annoying flyers you get in your mailbox from a major retail chain are no big deal to create either. In reality, it's a large industry and a significant undertaking involving a lot of technical aspects.

You seem confident that it is more complex than I think it is. Are you an expert? How much do you know about my knowledge in related areas?

 

[GregoryUrich]

I would like to put a bit of perspective on this for you. You say less than 500 people; ok let’s go along with this. Can you imagine a single person being approached and willing to go along with a plan to commit mass murder of 3000 of his/hers own citizens? Just one, then add another person and another until you get it up to the final figure you wish to put on it. So beforehand you have recruited an unknown amount of people that are prepared to carry out mass murder on your behalf. You are now relying upon an unknown, that unknown is whether or not these people will remain loyal to you, do as you ask and carry this out. Unless every single person that is approached to do this keeps quiet and is completely loyal to you it is game over before it starts.

So ok you get over the first hurdle and you have recruited a band of totally loyal people that are prepared to face certain death by the gas chamber if caught and carry out mass murder for you. Now comes the second hurdle, actually doing the prep work beforehand and not getting caught. Not being seen planting explosives inside the towers or WTC 7 or which ever other building you believe was blown up. This is all done before any planes are involved and done in total secrecy.

So, ok having over come these two hurdles, you have recruited a band of highly trained completely loyal people who are going to commit mass murder for you and they have prepped the site in total secretary. The next hurdle is the planes, knowing exactly when and where they are going to hit the towers, knowing that they are going to miss all the explosives and that they will not knock over the building immediately. You have to know that any fires that were caused will not damage the explosives and you have know that the fires themselves will not be intense enough to cause further damage which would inadvertently lead to a catastrophic structural failure, which is actually what you want anyway.

From there on it is easy, simply wait for suicidal hijackers to fly the planes into the buildings and your men then swing into action, that being on your behave they commit mass murder of 3000 of their fellow countrymen. Of course this was done in front of the entire planet so the structural failure of each of these building which you actually want to happen has to look as though it was caused by the planes and the fires, rather than your group of loyal mass murderers.

Everybody then packs up and heads off home, where they remain for years and years, totally loyal to you, not saying a word. They have absolutely no guilt,no feelings of remorse and keep their mouths shut for years, nearly six years in fact.

Now, would you feel happy to rely on so many unknowns to keep you out of the gas chamber?

With all due respect, I am not interested in continuing discussion in this area because I think it is pointless. I'm not supporting CD or CT no matter what anyone says. I think there are questions worth looking into. That is all.

 

[Gravy]

Regarding al Qaeda, who talked besides the dead guys and the right handed fat guy who only looks slightly like Usama bin Ladin?

You mean this guy?
Aljazeera.Net - Full transcript and video of bin Ladin's 2004 "Security" speech/threat

This guy?
Mike W. of 911myths.com on Osama bin Laden confessions, al Qaeda responsibility

This guy?
2006: Aljazeera airs pre-9/11 tape of bin Laden meeting with some hijackers

These guys?
The Usual Suspects: Bin Laden & Hijacker video confessions.Part 1 – Part 2 – Part 3 – Part 4

These guys?
al Qaeda names 20th Hijacker: Turki bin Fheid al-Muteiri -- Fawaz al-Nashmi

These guys?
The 19 Martyrs Video stills
Atta & Jarrah videos

These guys?
Official: 15 of 19 hijackers were Saudi

This guy?
Interview with brother of two hijackers Waleed Dateline NBC

This guy?
Zacarias Moussaoui Prosecution Trial Exhibits
USA v. Zacarias Moussaoui - Trial Transcripts

This guy?
Germany: 9/11 hijackers' friend guilty of aiding murder

I await your reply.

 

[GregoryUrich]

But it's just not that simple.

Who else? Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh for starters. Their story is infinitely more credible than a coordinated mixture of aircraft and planted explosives, too.

Aren't those guys orange suiters who have been tortured for 5 years?