Will Tax Protestor Standoff Lead To Another Ruby Ridge?

[BPSCG]

Well, look how clear and easy the tax codes are. Does anyone think this is a fair system? Can anyone figure out this system? Is the system set up to totally confuse you so you just give up and pay what they tell you to pay?

It may or may not be just that, but that wasn't the issue. In what looked like a "put up or shut up" challenge, Art demanded to be shown where there's any law that actually said you have to pay taxes.

Are you trying to suggest that because the tax code is unnecessarily complicated, that somehow absolves you of the responsibility to pay your taxes?

 

[WildCat]

Do you have evidence that this has happened?

Art, are you going to answer this question?

 

[Lurker]

No, because I would be hurting others - the bank and its depositors.

Analagous to not paying taxes hurts the rest of us, yes? I know the degree is different but not too much. Anyway, the bank is FDIC insured so almost all depositors would feel no pain...

But I would drive a lot faster if I didn't fear the long arm of the law, because I know I can drive safely a good 15 mph faster than the 70-75 I normally do on the interstate each morning.

Good point.

Heh. I'll bet...(about continuing to pay 'voluntary' taxes)

Hey, I'm a loony liberal from MN so what can you expect (MN being the only state to correctly choose who should be Prez over my life)

Lurker

 

[BPSCG]

Hey, I'm a loony liberal from MN so what can you expect (MN being the only state to correctly choose who should be Prez over my life)

Lurker

I'll bet every time it's Pledge Week on your local NPR or Public Television station, you and Mrs. Lurker go over the family finances and decide where you can cut back so you can give an extra couple of thousand to Minnesota Public Broadcasting, don't you? "Honey, I know we really wanted to go on that cruise, but how can we do that and still give a thousand bucks to Bill Moyers?"

 

[Lurker]

Well, look how clear and easy the tax codes are. Does anyone think this is a fair system? Can anyone figure out this system? Is the system set up to totally confuse you so you just give up and pay what they tell you to pay?

It takes me about one hour at most to fill in my 1040 (with Schedule A&B) form and send it in. No problems here.

 

[Lurker]

I'll bet every time it's Pledge Week on your local NPR or Public Television station, you and Mrs. Lurker go over the family finances and decide where you can cut back so you can give an extra couple of thousand to Minnesota Public Broadcasting, don't you? "Honey, I know we really wanted to go on that cruise, but how can we do that and still give a thousand bucks to Bill Moyers?"

Damn, good thing you reminded me.. honey go write out another check!

 

[BPSCG]

It takes me about one hour at most to fill in my 1040 (with Schedule A&B) form and send it in. No problems here.

I think you have a bigger problem than you realize, if you don't have to do a schedule D. Or aren't you planning on ever retiring?

And if you do do a schedule D (capital gains), I don't believe you when you say you do it all in an hour.

Do you have an IRA? Even using TurboTax, Mrs. BPSCG and I puzzle for an hour just figuring out how we're supposed to answer the IRA questions.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Perhaps his cause wasn't right.

So if he was just protesting income tax it would have made him a hero? When I hear people truly advocating rebellion and such, they don't make long descriptions of what causes are acceptable. The standard here was being forced to live in a world with laws you can not stand, that would seem to apply to laws you like as well as laws you don't.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You've asserted this a couple of times so I wanted to respond to it. I think many and perhaps most words are overused. I don't think most really lose any and all meaning. I certainly don't think "terrorism" has become trite or cliche or that it is so vague as to rely no meaning. If you ask most people what comes to mind when you say terrorist I'm willing to bet few if any will mention people spitting on the street.

It is often mssused I'll confess but it is still, IMO, a very useful word.

The problem is what is terrorism

9/11
Bombing the king David hotel
Attacking troops in a non conventional fashion(say in Iraq now or in France during WWII)
General bombing of cities to destroy infrastructure
ALF
Boston Tea Party

If the ALF counts as terrorism why not the Boston Tea Party?

If the road side bombs targeting our troops in Iraq are terrorism was the French Resistance?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yahtzee!! So, The Resistance in WWII were not terrorists but the people doing the same in Iraq are?

The problem is that in Iraq there are certainly terrorist acts and acts that are comparable to the French resistance, the problem comes when we define all attacks on our troops as terrorist acts.

As an example I don't remember the french resistance sending suicide bombers into churches.

 

[Lurker]

I think you have a bigger problem than you realize, if you don't have to do a schedule D. Or aren't you planning on ever retiring?

And if you do do a schedule D (capital gains), I don't believe you when you say you do it all in an hour.

I max out my 401k and with my company matching 100% I do all right. Plus I have a fairly generous pension coming as well. Other investments I have are 529 college savings plans for kids which also are not taxed. At this point, no Schedule D reqd.

Do you have an IRA? Even using TurboTax, Mrs. BPSCG and I puzzle for an hour just figuring out how we're supposed to answer the IRA questions.

No IRA needed as of yet.

 

[robinson]

A skeptic checks stuff out

Here you go.

The actual words to the effect that "if you are an individual and your income is under x, you have to pay..." are here.

Hmmm... a search of that page finds no such words.

"you have to pay", no results.

"have to pay", no results.

"to pay", one result, in link at bottom, not in code. Same for "pay".

"have", one result, if the parent does not have the same taxable year as the child, Section (g) (3) (c)

So, just by looking at the document you linked to, you are incorrect, and the phrase does not appear at all. Not even close.

I couldn't find any phrasing that states you have to pay. If you did, please quote it, and the location.

 

[Lurker]

Hmmm... a search of that page finds no such words.

"you have to pay", no results.

"have to pay", no results.

"to pay", one result, in link at bottom, not in code. Same for "pay".

"have", one result, if the parent does not have the same taxable year as the child, Section (g) (3) (c)

So, just by looking at the document you linked to, you are incorrect, and the phrase does not appear at all. Not even close.

I couldn't find any phrasing that states you have to pay. If you did, please quote it, and the location.

Hmm, I just read the first page and it said on the taxable income the tax is...

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that is nt synonymous to "pay" go right ahead. It seems you want the tax laws to say only the words you will accept.

 

[gnome]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't enforce the laws. I'm just saying that we shouldn't pretend that we're pacifists and committed to non-violence if we have the police engage in violence on our behalf.

I don't want my government to be pacifistic. I require and empower them to use violence to defend my freedom and security, subject to the laws governing their conduct and jurisdiction.

I do, however, believe that civil disobedience cannot be violent. To put it another way, the lack of violence allows it to be justified in cases where rebellion or resistance with violence would not be justified.

Why is destruction of the machine violence, but destruction of the papers not?

I don't believe you said the papers were destroyed, only stolen. If they were destroyed or made unrecoverable... yes, that would probably cross the line for me.

What if the stalker isn't acting unlawfully? And how is that relevant?

If a stalker is empowered by the state, and you defend yourself, that is rebellion against the state.

If a stalker is acting unlawfully, and you defend yourself, that is lawful self-defense.

If I think that a child molestor got off too lightly, so I attack him, is that not civil disobedience on the basis that the victim engaged in violence?

No... the act is violent, so the disobedience is not civil, and (according to my philosophy) requires far more extreme circumstances to justify than a non-violent response.

 

[The Painter]

It takes me about one hour at most to fill in my 1040 (with Schedule A&B) form and send it in. No problems here.

No wonder you don't have a problem with the tax system. What no charity deductions?

It costs me $1,200.00 just to have a guy figure out how much I have to send to the Governments. I hate the tax codes.

 

[Lurker]

No wonder you don't have a problem with the tax system. What no charity deductions?

That is Schedule A just like I said previously. Under "Gifts to Charity".

It costs me $1,200.00 just to have a guy figure out how much I have to send to the Governments. I hate the tax codes.

You have my condolences. I *do* agree that taxes can be cumbersome to fill out for some Americans. I doubt I would pay $1,200 myself but then I am the definition of a tightwad.

Lurker

 

[The Painter]

I doubt I would pay $1,200 myself but then I am the definition of a tightwad.

You don't understand. There is no choice in the matter.

 

[Art Vandelay]

It may or may not be just that, but that wasn't the issue. In what looked like a "put up or shut up" challenge, Art demanded to be shown where there's any law that actually said you have to pay taxes.

And you have yet to put up. Do you have a cite or not?

Are you trying to suggest that because the tax code is unnecessarily complicated, that somehow absolves you of the responsibility to pay your taxes?

Morally, yes. An label more accurate than "US Tax Code" would be "H&R Block Employment Act". Being forced to pay the government is one thing, being forced to pay a tax preparer is quite another.

Art, are you going to answer this question?

I don't know what the question is asking. Do ihave evidencewhathas happened?

If a stalker is empowered by the state, and you defend yourself, that is rebellion against the state.

So was helping slaves escape brebellion?

If a stalker is acting unlawfully, and you defend yourself, that is lawful self-defense.

Not necessarily. The law only recognizes "imminent" self defnese, so a chronic threat would not be a defense.

No... the act is violent, so the disobedience is not civil, and (according to my philosophy) requires far more extreme circumstances to justify than a non-violent response.

I tohough we were discussing whether it was rebellion, not whether it was CD.

 

[robinson]

Hmm, I just read the first page and it said on the taxable income the tax is...

Yes, that is obvious. But it is not what you claimed. You made a claim, and there is nothing to show your claim is valid, in any way.

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that is nt[sic] synonymous to "pay" go right ahead.

You made a claim, I pointed out it wasn't backed up by your link.

It seems you want the tax laws to say only the words you will accept.

I understand that might be what you think. I pointed out that your link didn't contain anything even close to what you said it did.

 

[Lurker]

You don't understand. There is no choice in the matter.

You are right, I don't understand. But I am the type of person who relishes reading tax codes and will do so in order to save a buck.