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9/11 Physics from Non-Experts

This is a surface detonation where less than half of the destructive force has even a vector component perpendicular to the surface. Wikipedia states that there were two explosions the larger being a ship that was being loaded (the ship located as ships often are, in the water). It is hard to know what the circumstances were regarding distance to bedrock but the above factors make clear that this is an entirely different situation from a huge compacted mass colliding directly with the bedrock.

Comparison of seismic energy:

Bazant total PE = approx 8.5x10^11
LDEO seismic energy = 1.0x10^7

SE/PE = 0.0000117 = 0.001%

Can an explosion over water be 100 times as effective at transferring energy as a compacted mass traveling at 47m/s hitting bedrock? The answer is clearly no. The conclusion must be that either the accumulated mass or the velocity (or both) as provided by Bazant et al. are in error.

For what it's worth, my grandmother was a witness to the Port Chicago disaster, and slightly injured watching the event from her home, at the time near Pittsburg California.

I've bolded the assumption that I find problematic. There is no reason to suppose the WTC collapses all hit bedrock as a single, sudden impact. Quite the contrary. Losses over the side would have absorbed some of the energy before the main impact, the second "crush up" phase supposed by Bazant et. al. would have sustained it, and the "collapse front" is likely to have been somewhat diffuse as well. This is borne out by the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory siesmographs themselves, seen here, which both show diffuse events approximately eight seconds in length and peaking in displacement towards the middle of the record.

The Port Chicago disaster, on the other hand, involved nearly the entire contents of an ammunition ship plus the railhead nearby exploding almost at once. Your assertion that "less than half [was] perpendicular to the surface" is also misleading -- the bulk of explosives were contained in a ship, and much of that below the waterline. This blast would be transmitted through water, and thence to a dredged ship canal directly underneath, potentially as a single shock wave. It should be clear that the siesmic signal was much, much sharper since the event was shorter in duration.

The Port Chicago disaster also involved an estimated 5,000 tons or more of various explosives, perhaps 1,500 tons TNT equivalent. In contrast, I once computed the total gravitational potential of the WTC towers, using a round and possibly optimistic 500,000 tons of mass and a linear taper distribution, at 160 tons TNT equivalent. We further know that losses outside the footprint and destruction of materials absorbed a non-trivial fraction of the potential energy. This leaves perhaps 50 to 100 tons of energy at most to contribute to siesmic events, or halve these figures if you want to use your own pre-collapse mass estimate. You should use this estimate, not the total potential energy.

What you are arguing against is that the WTC cases seem to have been ten times (yes, only ten) less efficient at transmitting shock to bedrock than Port Chicago. Even neglecting the different phenomenology, which could easily explain the different coupling coefficient, you must accept that the Port Chicago incident was one to two orders of magnitude larger. There is no reason to assume siesmic propagation is linear with respect to the magnitude of an event on the surface.

Bottom line, this approach is far too crude to either confirm or deny a mere factor of two in the pre-collapse mass estimate. You should not leap to conclusions regarding Dr. Bazant's calculations, and your accusation is premature at best.

I calculated the mass of one tower based on the specific mass numbers provided by Bazant et al. in the latest paper and got 566,000 short tons. Do you believe this is a realistic mass?

Your best argument regarding mass, in my opinion, is in comparison to other skyscrapers. Somebody has made an error or a significant asymmetric assumption, because either the WTC Towers were lighter than claimed, or the Sears Tower is heavier. Direct methods will be your best calculation approach. I don't believe you'll get anywhere approaching the problem obliquely, as in the siesmography, because it introduces still more simplifying assumptions and uncertainties -- clearly we already have too many.
 
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Gregory Urich:

May I draw your attention to the following paper by D. Weichert et al. that offers a better comparison of collapse energy to seismic energy than the Port Chicago detonation example I previously mentioned:

“Seismic Signatures of Landslides: the 1990 Brenda Mine Collapse and the 1965 Hope Rockslides” Bull. Seism. Soc. of America, 84(5), 1523 (1994).

The Hope landslide involved a drop in the center of gravity of 47 x 10^6 m^3 of rock through 730 meters with an estimated P.E release of 7.9 x 10^14 joules; the seismic event measured magnitude 3.2 and had an associated seismic energy release of 1 x 10^9 joules.

The Brenda open-pit mine landslide involved a drop in the center of gravity of 2 x 10^6 m^3 of rock through 176 meters with an estimated P.E release of 1 x 10^12 joules; the seismic event measured magnitude 2.4 and had an associated seismic energy release of 2 x 10^7 joules.
 
That's one distinct possibility. However, we also examined this in detail here -- there's every reason to expect cuts like that as part of the cleanup, since we have pictures of people making them.
 
For what it's worth, my grandmother was a witness to the Port Chicago disaster, and slightly injured watching the event from her home, at the time near Pittsburg California.

I've bolded the assumption that I find problematic. There is no reason to suppose the WTC collapses all hit bedrock as a single, sudden impact. Quite the contrary. Losses over the side would have absorbed some of the energy before the main impact, the second "crush up" phase supposed by Bazant et. al. would have sustained it, and the "collapse front" is likely to have been somewhat diffuse as well. This is borne out by the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory siesmographs themselves, seen here, which both show diffuse events approximately eight seconds in length and peaking in displacement towards the middle of the record.

The Port Chicago disaster, on the other hand, involved nearly the entire contents of an ammunition ship plus the railhead nearby exploding almost at once. Your assertion that "less than half [was] perpendicular to the surface" is also misleading -- the bulk of explosives were contained in a ship, and much of that below the waterline. This blast would be transmitted through water, and thence to a dredged ship canal directly underneath, potentially as a single shock wave. It should be clear that the siesmic signal was much, much sharper since the event was shorter in duration.

The Port Chicago disaster also involved an estimated 5,000 tons or more of various explosives, perhaps 1,500 tons TNT equivalent. In contrast, I once computed the total gravitational potential of the WTC towers, using a round and possibly optimistic 500,000 tons of mass and a linear taper distribution, at 160 tons TNT equivalent. We further know that losses outside the footprint and destruction of materials absorbed a non-trivial fraction of the potential energy. This leaves perhaps 50 to 100 tons of energy at most to contribute to siesmic events, or halve these figures if you want to use your own pre-collapse mass estimate. You should use this estimate, not the total potential energy.

What you are arguing against is that the WTC cases seem to have been ten times (yes, only ten) less efficient at transmitting shock to bedrock than Port Chicago. Even neglecting the different phenomenology, which could easily explain the different coupling coefficient, you must accept that the Port Chicago incident was one to two orders of magnitude larger. There is no reason to assume siesmic propagation is linear with respect to the magnitude of an event on the surface.

Bottom line, this approach is far too crude to either confirm or deny a mere factor of two in the pre-collapse mass estimate. You should not leap to conclusions regarding Dr. Bazant's calculations, and your accusation is premature at best.

Your best argument regarding mass, in my opinion, is in comparison to other skyscrapers. Somebody has made an error or a significant asymmetric assumption, because either the WTC Towers were lighter than claimed, or the Sears Tower is heavier. Direct methods will be your best calculation approach. I don't believe you'll get anywhere approaching the problem obliquely, as in the siesmography, because it introduces still more simplifying assumptions and uncertainties -- clearly we already have too many.

I agree with you. The "boldened" assumption is not my assumption. It is rather Bazant et al.'s assumption, whom it would seem have lost their marbles.

Bazant et al. "The kinetic energy of the impact, Kt, can alternatively be calculated from the final velocity vf of the compacted layer of rubble as it hit the foundation at the bottom of the ‘bathtub’. According to the crush-down differential equation, it was vf = approx 47.49 m/s for the North Tower,..."

I agree this is not proof of my hypothesis. I am just demonstrating the impossibility of Bazant's latest explanation. He maintains that 80% of the building's mass stayed within the footprint, thus the leading edge of compacted debris and the upper part together impact the foundation (i.e. bedrock) at approx 47m/s.

Added: No, 0.1% is definitely 100 times as large as 0.001%.

This was in response to Apollo's assertion that 0.1% of the total PE would be reasonable based on the Port Chicago expolsion. Using the 80% of Bazant's mass within the footprint and 47m/s for KE at impact, this becomes 4x10^11 Joules.

SE/KE = 0.0025% or 40 times as effective.
 
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That's one distinct possibility. However, we also examined this in detail here -- there's every reason to expect cuts like that as part of the cleanup, since we have pictures of people making them.

I agree. I have seen no good evidence of diagonal cuts other than those done during cleanup.
 
Even more Bazant nonsense

Bazant et al. suggest that sonic booms from air moving at supersonic speeds being expelled from the building late in the collapse accounts for eyewitness's testimony regarding explosions.

How does that explain testimony of explosions prior to collapse as presented by mainstream news organizations?

BBC 24 reporting huge explosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPRfn5tCCUo

Fox news reporting loud blast explosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Swk8U7nt0

CNN Interview with Jeanne Yurman “…sonic boom, then I looked up and the side of the World Trade Center exploded…”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7BGm9MKv4U&mode=related&search=


DR1 (Danish Radio) “Big explosion, blew us back into the 8th floor”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwc9YtSduJc

These I found within 2 minutes on youTube. There are surely more examples.
 
Bazant et al. suggest that sonic booms from air moving at supersonic speeds being expelled from the building late in the collapse accounts for eyewitness's testimony regarding explosions.

How does that explain testimony of explosions prior to collapse as presented by mainstream news organizations?

BBC 24 reporting huge explosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPRfn5tCCUo

Fox news reporting loud blast explosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Swk8U7nt0

CNN Interview with Jeanne Yurman “…sonic boom, then I looked up and the side of the World Trade Center exploded…”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7BGm9MKv4U&mode=related&search=


DR1 (Danish Radio) “Big explosion, blew us back into the 8th floor”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwc9YtSduJc

These I found within 2 minutes on youTube. There are surely more examples.

From my understanding and the videos, the collapsing building made a sound somewhat quickly. Not just later into the collapse. All of the videos that I got to work (I couldn't get the 3rd one to work) were talking about the collapse. The first one was explaining one hour after the second impact. (That's the collapse) the second of course was the collapse (I can see how someone could twist that into something more sinister. If you think he heard it just before, I can't find this noise in any video) and the 4th one was Barry Jennings from WTC7 who was talking about the second collapse. (Its in the NIST report)

MANY explosions have been taken out of context.
http://www.911myths.com/html/accounts_of_explosions.html

Now I'm not saying there wasn't explosions before the collapse either.
 
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GregoryUrich; said:
Bazant et al. suggest that sonic booms from air moving at supersonic speeds being expelled from the building late in the collapse accounts for eyewitness's testimony regarding explosions.

How does that explain testimony of explosions prior to collapse as presented by mainstream news organizations?

BBC 24 reporting huge explosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPRfn5tCCUo

Fox news reporting loud blast explosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Swk8U7nt0

CNN Interview with Jeanne Yurman “…sonic boom, then I looked up and the side of the World Trade Center exploded…”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7BGm9MKv4U&mode=related&search=


DR1 (Danish Radio) “Big explosion, blew us back into the 8th floor”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwc9YtSduJc

These I found within 2 minutes on youTube. There are surely more examples.


Never understand this train of thought. Surely you must agree that there were explosions on 9/11 associated with "things blowing up". Electrical panels, transformers, cars, gas lines etc. It should be simple enough to contact the people in the videos and ask them straight out "What do you think you heard, something explode or a bomb going off?" I just think with all the people that heard explosions someone would be saying "I heard a bomb go off on 9/11, I felt it, it wasn't an electrical panel and it wasn't a television set, it was a bomb" Given the amount of people in New York, and the amount of people that will lie to get attention, there should be like "iheardabombon911.com" websites popping up all over the place. At least one of them should be real. But instead there is nothing. That goes along way to saying there was nothing but "bang bang bang" on 9/11 in my book.
 
Never understand this train of thought. Surely you must agree that there were explosions on 9/11 associated with "things blowing up". Electrical panels, transformers, cars, gas lines etc. It should be simple enough to contact the people in the videos and ask them straight out "What do you think you heard, something explode or a bomb going off?" I just think with all the people that heard explosions someone would be saying "I heard a bomb go off on 9/11, I felt it, it wasn't an electrical panel and it wasn't a television set, it was a bomb" Given the amount of people in New York, and the amount of people that will lie to get attention, there should be like "iheardabombon911.com" websites popping up all over the place. At least one of them should be real. But instead there is nothing. That goes along way to saying there was nothing but "bang bang bang" on 9/11 in my book.

There were reports of explosions heard in the Windsor Building also.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/printfullstory.aspx?storyid=32409
http://newsfromrussia.com/accidents/2005/02/13/58231_.html
 
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From my understanding and the videos, the collapsing building made a sound somewhat quickly. Not just later into the collapse. All of the videos that I got to work (I couldn't get the 3rd one to work) were talking about the collapse. The first one was explaining one hour after the second impact. (That's the collapse) the second of course was the collapse (I can see how someone could twist that into something more sinister. If you think he heard it just before, I can't find this noise in any video) and the 4th one was Barry Jennings from WTC7 who was talking about the second collapse. (Its in the NIST report)

MANY explosions have been taken out of context.
http://www.911myths.com/html/accounts_of_explosions.html

Now I'm not saying there wasn't explosions before the collapse either.

I'll have to check that out. Meanwhile:

CNN explosion on the way down and again in the Mezzanine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKOl9B4xJE


William Rodriquez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXCA2fcQzQY


NY1: Phillip Morelli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlEXoY1HCWI


Fox News “Sounded like and explosion then the rolling sound like a building collapse”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuXmJx6HZI8


Police and Fireman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPXKpbdfLd4&mode=related&search=


MSNBC Female news anchor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQglNeLgnl4


CSPAN2 Nonlicensed paramedic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdjOLY6P1Pc


America responds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q474I41K67c


Compilation1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IqSsTmWv7k


Compilation2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyy4Yj-XF4


ABC7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJO_7Ca6VFE
 
I'll have to check that out. Meanwhile:

CNN explosion on the way down and again in the Mezzanine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKOl9B4xJE


William Rodriquez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXCA2fcQzQY


NY1: Phillip Morelli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlEXoY1HCWI


Fox News “Sounded like and explosion then the rolling sound like a building collapse”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuXmJx6HZI8


Police and Fireman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPXKpbdfLd4&mode=related&search=


MSNBC Female news anchor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQglNeLgnl4


CSPAN2 Nonlicensed paramedic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdjOLY6P1Pc


America responds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q474I41K67c


Compilation1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IqSsTmWv7k


Compilation2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyy4Yj-XF4


ABC7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJO_7Ca6VFE

Ah--the true colors show again. We have gone away from Physics--which the poster claims to have som knowledge of--although the evidence is sketchy, and away from structures, which the poster is demonstrably ignorant of, and back to appearances ("looks like") and "sounds like", brought to you via youtube and the twoofers.
 
Agree -- just because Bazant et. al. predict booms during collapse, does not mean that they suppose that mechanism describes all booms heard prior to collapse. There is no reason whatsoever to connect the two. Failure of local floor structures, combustibles, and electrical arcing are all plausible explanations for what was heard, and there is no evidence to the contrary.
 
The first one of the Compilation1 video (MSNBC Female news anchor) states 10:30. Guess what happened at 10:28?

Some of these I wish I had better context, some of these (such as Basement and lobby) are because of jet fuel going down the elevators and service shafts. Elevators shafts went past the main floor level and down into the basement levels. There's many reports and videos on this. When the Empire State building was hit by a B-25, jet fuel also went down the elevators and damage occured in the lobby. There's other threads on this long debate if you want to jump in.

I don't have a big problem with the ABC news video talking about secondary explosions. Again explosions in fires aren't exactly anything new. Also watching videos of the collapses will help.
 
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The first one of the Compilation1 video (MSNBC Female news anchor) states 10:30. Guess what happened at 10:28?
Hey--don't go confusing the issue with actual facts!
Some of these I wish I had better context, some of these (such as Basement and lobby) are because of jet fuel going down the elevators and service shafts. Elevators shafts went past the main floor level and down into the basement levels. There's many reports and videos on this. When the Empire State building was hit by a B-25 jet fuel also went down the elevators and damage occured in the lobby. There's other threads on this long debate if you want to jump in.
erm...I imagine it was actually 120 Octane avgas, which burns much more brightly, and has a lower flash point by several degrees F. The B25 was piston powered (and it flys like a truck, BTW)

I don't have a big problem with ABC news video talking about secondary explosions. Again explosions in fires aren't exactly anything new.
 
Hey--don't go confusing the issue with actual facts!

erm...I imagine it was actually 120 Octane avgas, which burns much more brightly, and has a lower flash point by several degrees F. The B25 was piston powered (and it flys like a truck, BTW)

A small side point, when the towers were hit, there was damage all throughout the building due to flexing and shaking of the building. In fact I believe there are reports of doors being unable to be opened, damaged ceilings and walls.

Again Gregory, I would suggest checking out that link I gave from 911myths.
...and if you want more info on Barry Jennings
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=barry_jennings_1

Steven Jones, Alex Jones and the upcoming Loose Change Final Cut are all very dishonest with Jennings testimony.
 
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I'll have to check that out. Meanwhile:
CNN explosion on the way down and again in the Mezzanine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKOl9B4xJE
William Rodriquez http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXCA2fcQzQY
NY1: Phillip Morelli http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlEXoY1HCWI
Fox News “Sounded like and explosion then the rolling sound like a building collapse” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuXmJx6HZI8
Police and Fireman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPXKpbdfLd4&mode=related&search=
MSNBC Female news anchor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQglNeLgnl4
CSPAN2 Nonlicensed paramedic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdjOLY6P1Pc
America responds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q474I41K67c
Compilation1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IqSsTmWv7k
Compilation2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyy4Yj-XF4
ABC7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJO_7Ca6VFE
You have failed to prove CD with engineering, so you revert to the CT tactic of flooding the world with this junk. Wow. This means a 9/11 truth minded engineer has no fact or evidence so he follows the 9/11 truth cult of taking stuff and saying it was so. Why would an engineer fall for this junk? What made you a 9/11 truth person?
 
I'll have to check that out. Meanwhile:
CNN explosion on the way down and again in the Mezzanine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKOl9B4xJE
William Rodriquez
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXCA2fcQzQY
NY1: Phillip Morelli http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlEXoY1HCWI
Fox News “Sounded like and explosion then the rolling sound like a building collapse”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuXmJx6HZI8
Police and Fireman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPXKpbdfLd4&mode=related&search=
MSNBC Female news anchor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQglNeLgnl4
CSPAN2 Nonlicensed paramedic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdjOLY6P1Pc
America responds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q474I41K67c
Compilation1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IqSsTmWv7k
Compilation2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyy4Yj-XF4
ABC7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJO_7Ca6VFE

I thought many of the early "explosions" before the collapse were attributed to the splattering of people jumping out of windows. I don't know about all of them, but it's a bit hard to trace every presumed explosion that was noticed that day. I would think there is a lot of unusual noise after a plane hits a building and explodes, not to mention the fires, the buckling, people jumping,...
I guess if you want it to be explosives there is as little proof against it as there is for it, but it's not likely since there are more probable explanations. I don't think this is really going to lead to a conclusion or even a theory. As a hypothesis it's a possibility but there needs to be some good reason to make it more likely... You agree?

I think you mean "sounds of explosions" rather then "explosions"...Yes? A similar sound can be many things that happened that day. Let's not jump the gun.

SYL :)
 
The vast overwhelming majority of reports of explosions by news networks on 9/11 refer to either one of the aircraft impacts or one of the building collapses.

Watching the clips in context, this is too often painfully obvious.

The collapses were almost universally described as "huge explosions".

-Gumboot
 

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