Irrational fears

[TruthBeTold]

You're not helping me here Truth!! LOL!!

Sorry about that!!

I went to see the doctors last week. I have a serious health condition that they're doing all they can do for.
I asked him what I can do to feel better and I told him that I don't want to die and I'm scared sometimes.
He said to me that we're all going down river, no matter how you slice or dice it. It's what you do while you're going down river that matters.
Will you enjoy the ride or scream and paddle upstream all the way?
I choose to enjoy it......and take some vitamins and stuff to feel better but I'm still going to enjoy it.

 

[jezzedout]

Sorry about that!!

I went to see the doctors last week. I have a serious health condition that they're doing all they can do for.
I asked him what I can do to feel better and I told him that I don't want to die and I'm scared sometimes.
He said to me that we're all going down river, no matter how you slice or dice it. It's what you do while you're going down river that matters.
Will you enjoy the ride or scream and paddle upstream all the way?
I choose to enjoy it......and take some vitamins and stuff to feel better but I'm still going to enjoy it.

Truth... I'm so very sorry to hear that. My situation wasn't life threatening, just terribly debilitating to the point I would have traded it for something life threatening just to get it over with. I can only imagine what you're facing. I'm sure you know that a positive attitude goes a long way in times like these. I do hope you've gotten multiple opinions, and looked into clinical trials and other options that may be applicable to your situation. The most important thing I learned from my situation was to fight for myself because nobody else would be. When your life literally depends on it, it's important to make sure you've explored every possible treatment option. I can't tell you how many doctors I saw who told me there was nothing that could be done for me... that I wasn't a surgical candidate... that I would probably never walk normally again, but I should take some anti-depressants and go get counseling and just learn to "adjust" to it. These were all very qualified, very well-respected surgeons. They were all specialists in their field. They were all wrong. So stay positive, stay focused, and do everything you can to make sure you're getting the best possible medical care you can afford. In the meantime, take good care of yourself. I'll definitely be keeping positive thoughts for you.

 

[LostAngeles]

Hey Lost -- I think the Anza quake was only a few years ago, so I'm guessing you're relatively new to the area. Welcome!! Listen, 5.4 is a pretty strong jolt. I was on an upper floor of the Stratosphere in Vegas for the Hector Mine quake in the late 90s. Being so far from the epicenter (120 miles) helped limit the impact, but the building still swayed for a good 20 mins



I'm curious why freight elevators would affect you more than normal passenger elevators?

I've been here since early 2004.

Freight elevators are louder, shakier, and you can see more of the mechanism, hence I can look at every last part that I, "know," will fail and send me to my doom.

The worst elevator was the one in the apartment building I lived in as a kid. It would get stuck between floors, doors would open into the shaft... Utterly terrifying.

 

[noblecaboose]

You think that's an irrational fear?
When I was about 18 I discovered, much to my surprise, that I had somehow acquired a paralyzing fear of indoor statues. I first fully realized it when I had a panic attack in the Louvre. Very embarrasing.
It happened most recently about a year ago when I went to the DeYoung museum by myself on a weekday and found myself face to face with one of those giant, Olmec heads.
I have a few theories about where this comes from, but I also get the same feeling when walking too close to large pieces of machinery and tall, imposing buildings. Some boulders and rock formations do it too, but nothing is as stong as the fear that overtakes me when I walk into a room, turn around and BAM! there's a statue. Just thinking about it gives me the willies.
If I am with someone I don't get as scared but when I am alone, I usually freeze. When it's unavoidable that I have to enter a room that may have a statue in it (sometimes it's just the idea that there might be a statue in the next room that keeps me from entering it) I take a slow controlled breath in while thinking "There is nothing to be afraid of" and a slow controlled breath out while thinking "It can't hurt me." That seems to do the trick. But I still freeze up occasionally when the statues catch me unawares.

 

[wolfgirl]

I have a fear of heights that I have been trying to conquer. I always make myself go up in tall buildings.

When we went to Paris, I told my husband that I wanted to go up the Eiffel Tower, but that I would probably want to chicken out, so I wanted him not to let me chicken out. When we got there, sure enough, I was like "You go up and take pictures, and I'll just wait down here." True to his word, he wouldn't let me back out, so up we went. It's a freaking glass elevator! I had my face buried in his chest the whole way up, whimpering. He said people were looking at him like he was some sort of ogre. When we got to the top, I got out and stood with my back pressed up tightly against the wall right next to the elevator and told him to go look around and take pictures. He went off to do so, and I stood there waiting. But as I stood there, I started looking around, and it was interesting. So I took a couple of steps, and then a couple more. Soon I was over by the glass looking out. My heart was pounding and my palms were sweating, but I was there! Then I saw some people coming down some stairs. Hmmm...where are they coming from? I went up the stairs, and it was another observation deck, only open! When I came back down, my husband was looking for me. He was about ready to go down, thinking I had gotten on the elevator and gone down without him. Was he surprised to find that I had gone further up!!!!

I remember looking around at the other people up there, and asking my husband how come nobody else up there looked scared or anxious, weren't there other people scared of heights, too? And he said "Yeah, the ones who are scared of heights don't come to the top of the Eiffel Tower!"

So then we went up to the top of Notre Dame. And then we went to the Arch de Triomphe, and their elevator was out of order. My husband was too tired to climb the stairs, so I went up by myself and took pictures from the top!

I've been to the top of the Arch...twice. I cried in the elevator thingy on the way up last time!

I went to the top of the Sears Tower.

I jumped off a 30-foot cliff into the beautiful waters off of Jamaica, the only one of our group of four who would do it. (I broke my tailbone, which pains me to this day, but I've never regretted it for a second!) I had to do it the very first second I got to the top, without thinking about it for an instant. My husband almost didn't get the picture because he didn't think I'd really do it, and certainly not right away!

I was so proud of myself doing all these things that I thought I had conquered it. Then we were in Scotland two summers ago. We went to the Wallace Memorial, which you can climb to the top of by way of a spiral staircase that goes up the side. Up we went, to the halfway point, where you go into a room with William Wallace's sword, etc. (and catch your breath!). Up we went for the second half, but each time we came to the outer part of the stairs, where there were little slits cut in the stone wall that you can see out of, I got more and more terrified. Soon, I couldn't breathe and my knees started to go out from under me. I was saying "I can't, I can't, I can't" over and over. We had to turn around and go back down. The second we got to the bottom, and I mean the second we got down, I regretted it. I couldn't understand why I hadn't just kept going like I always had before. Then I realized it was because I could stop. The Eiffel Tower - once you're on the elevator, you can't get off. Same with Sears Tower and the Arch. Notre Dame - the stairs are enclosed, so you can't see how high you are until you get out on top. This was different because I could see how high I was going, and I had the option to turn around and go back. I have regretted turning around ever since, but at the time, I don't think I had a choice. My legs were buckling, I couldn't keep climbing.

I guess I'm not nearly as brave as I had convinced myself that I was...just stubborn!

The point I try to remember is that, even though I am an extremely rational person, I have this one ridiculous fear that I can manage (mostly) but not quite conquer. I'm human. So be it.

 

[jezzedout]

I've been here since early 2004.

Freight elevators are louder, shakier, and you can see more of the mechanism, hence I can look at every last part that I, "know," will fail and send me to my doom.

The worst elevator was the one in the apartment building I lived in as a kid. It would get stuck between floors, doors would open into the shaft... Utterly terrifying.

2004 is about what I would have guessed. I hope you like it here. Despite the traffic and earthquakes... and utterly shallow, self-absorbed people... LA is actually a pretty great place to live. I've been here since '92 and have no plans to leave anytime soon.

The way you describe it, I can understand why freight elevators would rattle you. With that in mind, I'm wondering... what's your take on rollercoasters? Or airplanes? In other words... are freight elevators your only phobia?

 

[jezzedout]

You think that's an irrational fear?
When I was about 18 I discovered, much to my surprise, that I had somehow acquired a paralyzing fear of indoor statues. I first fully realized it when I had a panic attack in the Louvre. Very embarrasing.
It happened most recently about a year ago when I went to the DeYoung museum by myself on a weekday and found myself face to face with one of those giant, Olmec heads. I have a few theories about where this comes from, but I also get the same feeling when walking too close to large pieces of machinery and tall, imposing buildings. Some boulders and rock formations do it too, but nothing is as stong as the fear that overtakes me when I walk into a room, turn around and BAM! there's a statue. Just thinking about it gives me the willies. If I am with someone I don't get as scared but when I am alone, I usually freeze. When it's unavoidable that I have to enter a room that may have a statue in it (sometimes it's just the idea that there might be a statue in the next room that keeps me from entering it) I take a slow controlled breath in while thinking "There is nothing to be afraid of" and a slow controlled breath out while thinking "It can't hurt me." That seems to do the trick. But I still freeze up occasionally when the statues catch me unawares.

Perhaps I should have titled the threat, "Irrational Fears?"

I have to hand it to you, a fear of statues definitely takes the prize in the irrational fear category as far as I can tell. I've heard of people who are terrified of clowns, but this is the first I've heard of someone being afraid of statues. Is it only statues that take a human form, or statues in any form? Good for you that you have developed some ways to try and control your reaction. Statues are hard to avoid. It would be one thing if you could simply avoid going to museums, but you'll find statues in so many public places, as I'm sure you've noticed if this is your phobia. Is that the only thing you're afraid of?

 

[LostAngeles]

2004 is about what I would have guessed. I hope you like it here. Despite the traffic and earthquakes... and utterly shallow, self-absorbed people... LA is actually a pretty great place to live. I've been here since '92 and have no plans to leave anytime soon.

The way you describe it, I can understand why freight elevators would rattle you. With that in mind, I'm wondering... what's your take on rollercoasters? Or airplanes? In other words... are freight elevators your only phobia?

Being as I attend to school, I've found that most of the folks I deal with aren't that shallow or self-absorbed. I've lucked out. There's also quite a substanital number of forum members in the general L.A. area. If you're interested, next time I hear of stuff going on, I'll drop you a line.

Rollercoasters sometimes scare me if they do loops. It varies. I fear take-off on planes, but once I'm in the air, the view is too amazing for me to really be afraid.

And as for my only phobia... no...

I'm deathly afraid of slugs

 

[jezzedout]

Wolfgirl... great story. You go girl!!

I was laughing as I read your story about the Eiffel Tower, as I think I would have acted much as you in the same situation. It must have felt great to have overcome your fear long enough to enjoy the experience of visiting such a fantastic monument. Candidly, I get scared just looking at the Eiffel Tower on TV. I know logically it must be quite stable, but then I think about myself going up that elevator, and my thoughts immediately switch to how flimsy the structure looks and how terrifying it would be to be at the top and have it collapse.

Soon, I couldn't breathe and my knees started to go out from under me. I was saying "I can't, I can't, I can't" over and over. We had to turn around and go back down. The second we got to the bottom, and I mean the second we got down, I regretted it. I couldn't understand why I hadn't just kept going like I always had before. Then I realized it was because I could stop. The Eiffel Tower - once you're on the elevator, you can't get off. Same with Sears Tower and the Arch. Notre Dame - the stairs are enclosed, so you can't see how high you are until you get out on top. This was different because I could see how high I was going, and I had the option to turn around and go back. I have regretted turning around ever since, but at the time, I don't think I had a choice. My legs were buckling, I couldn't keep climbing.

I think this is the point a few of the others were making. We allow ourselves to give in to the fear, and the longer we stay away from the thing that scares us, the more it scares us. Based on that, and on my own avoidance of some situations, your reaction makes perfect sense to me.

I guess I'm not nearly as brave as I had convinced myself that I was...just stubborn!

I think bravery and stubbornness are one in the same sometimes. It shouldn't matter which one, since either gets the job done ((-:

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Well, having found out you live in earthquake country, do you not think that some of your fear is legit?

I'm pretty sure steel-framed skyscrapers are far safer places to be than smaller brick buildings during an earthquake.

Even though tall buildings can collapse (but so rarely as to be almost never) and airplanes can crash, etc., these are still irrational fears because the fear is nowhere near proportionate to the actual risk. By many orders of magnitude, driving a car is more dangerous than either being in a tall building or flying in an airplane, yet few people will refrain from getting into a car.

These fears are irrational the same way buying a lottery ticket and then running out and buying a million dollars of stuff on credit because you think you'll win is irrational. Sure it's possible, but only just barely.

I've been to the top of the Arch...twice. I cried in the elevator thingy on the way up last time!

You sure you're not claustrophobic? Those tram cars are mighty cramped!

 

[jezzedout]

Being as I attend to school, I've found that most of the folks I deal with aren't that shallow or self-absorbed. I've lucked out.

Sounds like you are a UCLA (or USC?) student. Good for you!!

There's also quite a substanital number of forum members in the general L.A. area. If you're interested, next time I hear of stuff going on, I'll drop you a line.

Yes, please do. I've been thinking about getting more involved in live activities with other members, or others in the skeptic / critical thinking community. I've noticed a number of interesting events taking place at the Center for Inquiry in Hollywood and thought that might be a good way to get more involved in live events beyond the online stuff. So yes, would love to hear if you know of anything interesting going on.

And as for my only phobia... no...

I'm deathly afraid of slugs

I was going to ask you what your other phobia was, but it mysteriously appeared to me when I quoted your message ((-: Well, that's an interesting one. Mind sharing what it is that makes you "deathly afraid of slugs" ?

 

[jezzedout]

I'm pretty sure steel-framed skyscrapers are far safer places to be than smaller brick buildings during an earthquake.

That's probably true, but since I don't live or work in a brick building, I don't worry about it ((-:

Even though tall buildings can collapse (but so rarely as to be almost never) and airplanes can crash, etc., these are still irrational fears because the fear is nowhere near proportionate to the actual risk.

That's my point, and the reason why I believe my fear is in fact irrational. The fear outweighs the likelihood of it actually ever happening.

By many orders of magnitude, driving a car is more dangerous than either being in a tall building or flying in an airplane, yet few people will refrain from getting into a car.

I agree Joe. As far as I'm aware, my only phobia is the one I've discussed here, and I feel determined to want to overcome it.

 

[LostAngeles]

Sounds like you are a UCLA (or USC?) student. Good for you!!

What? The University of Second Choice? Please!

Yes, please do. I've been thinking about getting more involved in live activities with other members, or others in the skeptic / critical thinking community. I've noticed a number of interesting events taking place at the Center for Inquiry in Hollywood and thought that might be a good way to get more involved in live events beyond the online stuff. So yes, would love to hear if you know of anything interesting going on.

I know folks attend the CalTech lectures, but for anything else, you're on my list.

I was going to ask you what your other phobia was, but it mysteriously appeared to me when I quoted your message ((-: Well, that's an interesting one. Mind sharing what it is that makes you "deathly afraid of slugs" ?

Yeah, I used the invisible tags.

I'm not sure what it is. But as bad as it is for me to see one (and why I didn't apply to UCSC aside from distance), it's even worse to have one on me.

A few years ago when I lived back east, I was sitting in my friend's basement after having been outside on a rainy night.

"Hey, you have a slug on you," he says and I go from beer-swilling, cursing sailor girl, to crying, freaked-out girl. I made him and my other friend check me for other slugs. My other friend drives me home and I'm walking up to the front door, and I feel something brush my shoulder. It's about 2AM.

All I can think is, "SLUG!" and I shriek and drop everything I was carrying. Turned out to be a tree branch.

Heart, still in my throat, I walk into my house and who's sleeping on the couch, soundly, but my mom.

I considered showering, but all I could think is that there were slug bits on me and then the slug bits would grow into slugs. I then had to resist the urge to not cover myself in salt.

Mind you, I was like 22 at the time. It's a completely nonsensical fear.

 

[jezzedout]

I considered showering, but all I could think is that there were slug bits on me and then the slug bits would grow into slugs. I then had to resist the urge to not cover myself in salt.

Mind you, I was like 22 at the time. It's a completely nonsensical fear.

Not that I have room to make fun of anybody given my own irrational phobia, but... that's a good one Lost. ((-: I could understand if you said you had a serious dislike of slugs based on a particular experience, but to categorize it as a fear takes it to a different level. Good luck with that one !

I'm not super fond of snakes and spiders, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm afraid of them (unless they are super poisonous). I'll hold snakes, and I used to own a tarantula. That said, I also used to fish a lot when I was younger and didn't hesitate to stick a worm or live cricket on my fish hook. As I've gotten older, I've gotten more of the "ewww" factor and tend to wear gloves ((-:

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

It'd probably be reassuring to know some of the details about the engineering that goes into tall buildings. I used to interpret for the Deaf and one school I spent a lot of time in was an architecture school. In "Structures" I remember they would calculate the maximum load a given member would need, and then multiply it by some safety factor. I don't have the details, but I think things are generally overstructured by several hundred percent.

 

[kerikiwi]

I have trained my dog not to be terrified of cattle rushing along the fence to say hello.
I have trained my horse not to be terrified of big trucks.
Perhaps I can help?

 

[jezzedout]

I have trained my dog not to be terrified of cattle rushing along the fence to say hello.
I have trained my horse not to be terrified of big trucks.
Perhaps I can help?

I sense you're just joking. Perhaps I just hope you're joking. If not, simply out of curiosity... what do you have in mind?

 

[TruthBeTold]

Maybe Kerikiwi would like to go to the hundredth floor with you over and over again till your fear is gone????
I would but I'm not near ya!

BTW...I didn't mention my doctor's sentiment for any other reason than to imply that we all have fears but it's how we deal with them that matters.
The way you've handled your other fears Jezzedout, I'm sure you'll overcome this one. Talking about it is the first step. Lots of times I find that if I talk about something outloud to others, like if I say outloud that I'm going to do something, I am more inclined to do it.

 

[Kariboo]

Interesting. Can you tell me about the specific protocol for addressing arachnophobia using CBT? What kinds of things did they have you do? How long did it take to overcome the phobia? I'm sure the end result had to be a huge accomplishment for you. Very liberating. Bravo!!

I meant that I was the (assistant) therapist. The university/major I graduated at is know for it's CBT based work/teaching. Every year we had the "spider project". Used to partially do new research on the other hand subject would get free therapy. Since the deal was that we had to find as many spiders as possible to use in the project ,fear of spiders would be a problem (not to mention get you hooked up to a lot of research .

It's been a while but the short version is that you start by explaining fear and the fact that fear gets bigger if you leave a situation that you are afraid of before the fear begins to subside. Simply put if you put fear on a 1-10 scale and you run away every time your fear goes up to 7, then you leave and the fear goes down, you keep getting afraid and you reinforce the idea that there IS something to be afraid of and that leaving is helping. Lather, rinse repeat.

With exposure you "force" people to stay in the situation even if the fear gets up to 7-8-9-10. What happens is that after a while the fear starts to go down, even if you are still in the situation that you are afraid of. So you start disconnecting fear from the object that you are afraid of. (see you can be "relaxed" in the presence of a spider). With spider phobics you would for instance start by taking a spider that elicits a fear of about 6 at a 10 foot distance, you wait till the fear goes down to a 4 and then you take a couple of steps closer, next step is to put the spider in a bucket and look up close, next is touching with a stick, then touching with your finger, then lwt it walk on your hand. Do the same thing but then with bigger spider etc. The trick is to keep doing something that elicits a reasonable amount of fear and then wait till it subsides. At the same time you talk about (mis)conceptions about spiders, show that you are able to do t without the spider going out and killing you etc.

One important aspect is that you "over train" your subjects. There will always be a little setback after therapy since clients will not have their therapist with them afterwards or the "high" wears off. So with spider phobics would would ultimately have them handle big (say tarantula style) spiders at the end of the day. Even with a setback, at home you'd still be able to vacuum up a spider, or put it outside without going berserk.

With spiders the protocol was around 3-4 hours, with a success rate very close to 100%. The worst case scenario was usually when someone wouldn't completely get rid of their fear, or not take as many steps up as others. I haven;t seen anyone where it made NO difference. The only thing that the client HAS to do is stay in the presence of the fear no matter what, the fear WILL subside. If you bail, then it won;t work.

You can use the same protocol with any kind of phobia, also with a lot of obsessive compulsive disorders. And there are some really interesting stories there: afraid of fish, so afraid of touching dirt that you can't clean, Having to check if the light if off when you are IN the room (think about that one ). Afraid that if you shake someones hand the following might happen (from a male perspective) : You masturbate and accidentally some sperm gets on your hand and survives washing, if you then shake the hand of a female and the sperm would jump over and then she masturbates and get pregnant and then has an abortion, you are responsible for the death of a fetus. Not to make light of these because the can be debilitating but it just proves how interesting the mind is.

ETA: strangely exposure does not work if you are repulsed by something. So fear of spiders yes, but grossed out by spiders no. Not sure if they figured out why yet.

Also, I've always heard that if you are afraid of spiders you are never afraid of mice and vice versa, wonder if that is true?

What is going to be important is knowing exactly what it is you are afraid of and being exposed to that fear/ For instance if you are afraid of spiders, other insects might elicit some fear as well, but being exposed to centipedes for hours is not going to do anything for your fear of spiders. This sounds simple but actually is not. With spiders people are afraid of different things, some the long legs, some the short and hairy legs, some a small body, some the big body, some the form, some the speediness. So in order to be effective you have to find the RIGHT spiders to work with.

With your fear you'd have to figure out with your therapist what it is EXACTLY that you are afraid of in order for exposure to be effective, this gets more difficult as phobia's get more complex. For instance if you are afraid of groups: are you afraid people look at you funny, or are you afraid that you will faint and embarrass yourself, or are you afraid of running out of oxygen? the same basic description "fear of groups" would describe all of them. Fear of heights is also somewhat unclear.

I'm gonna stop now and let someone else get a word in edgewise

Kariboo

 

[jezzedout]

It's been a while but the short version is that you start by explaining fear and the fact that fear gets bigger if you leave a situation that you are afraid of before the fear begins to subside. Simply put if you put fear on a 1-10 scale and you run away every time your fear goes up to 7, then you leave and the fear goes down, you keep getting afraid and you reinforce the idea that there IS something to be afraid of and that leaving is helping. Lather, rinse repeat
With exposure you "force" people to stay in the situation even if the fear gets up to 7-8-9-10. What happens is that after a while the fear starts to go down, even if you are still in the situation that you are afraid of. So you start disconnecting fear from the object that you are afraid of. (see you can be "relaxed" in the presence of a spider). With spider phobics you would for instance start by taking a spider that elicits a fear of about 6 at a 10 foot distance, you wait till the fear goes down to a 4 and then you take a couple of steps closer, next step is to put the spider in a bucket and look up close, next is touching with a stick, then touching with your finger, then lwt it walk on your hand. Do the same thing but then with bigger spider etc. The trick is to keep doing something that elicits a reasonable amount of fear and then wait till it subsides. At the same time you talk about (mis)conceptions about spiders, show that you are able to do t without the spider going out and killing you etc..

That makes perfect sense. Thanks Kariboo.

You can use the same protocol with any kind of phobia, also with a lot of obsessive compulsive disorders. And there are some really interesting stories there: afraid of fish, so afraid of touching dirt that you can't clean, Having to check if the light if off when you are IN the room (think about that one ). Afraid that if you shake someones hand the following might happen (from a male perspective) : You masturbate and accidentally some sperm gets on your hand and survives washing, if you then shake the hand of a female and the sperm would jump over and then she masturbates and get pregnant and then has an abortion, you are responsible for the death of a fetus. Not to make light of these because the can be debilitating but it just proves how interesting the mind is.

Not to make light of anyone elses issues, but I feel relatively normal compared to these types of situations. I had no idea there were people who actually thought like that. You're right, it is quite fascinating the way different people's minds work.