Why did NIST only test 1% of the Twin Tower beams for temperature effects?

[Pardalis]

Why would it have to be done that day? Who says the fires caused by the aircraft impacts could not have initiated a collapse of planted explosives in the impact zone and maybe pressure sensitive explosives were used below?

Because the towers collapsed and hour after the impacts.

 

[rwguinn]

Yes, it is in the range of physical Probabilities

That's what you meant to say, is it not?

now respond to these?
"Actually, I waiting fortherealthing to answer--we'll give him a bit of time.
A design/analyst engineer would have seen it quickly. A test engineer knew it from the start, and a fornesics expert--hell, anyone who even watches one of the CSI TV programs can get it from the hint: See the posting about marking and identificationof the steel inspected."
Posted by R. Mackey:

The primary reason for the steel search was not to verify high temperatures, though it is partially related. Do you know what it was?

 

[kookbreaker]

realcddeal

Can you tell me what this is?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

It has been a good chat and I didn't expect this post to get so many replies as fast as it did. Sorry if I didn't answer every reply but only wanted to bring up the point that physical evidence for the fire weakening theory is what is weak and unfortunately this theory for the collapse of the twin towers has problems. I think the government needs to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition to put it to bed and shut down the conspiracy theories. I would like to see the NIST engineers and scientists do the investigation with a special prosecutor appointed by Congress overseeing their work and not an executive branch political appointee. That would ensure no political intrusion and keep everyone free of suspicion.

 

[rwguinn]

realcddeal

Can you tell me what this is?

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/CopperDepositweb.jpg

broken?






It is unlikely it was designed that way...

 

[kookbreaker]

Its not like I haven't posted it before.

And that purple color is the important part.

 

[rwguinn]

It has been a good chat and I didn't expect this post to get so many replies as fast as it did. Sorry if I didn't answer every reply but only wanted to bring up the point that physical evidence for the fire weakening theory is what is weak and unfortunately this theory for the collapse of the twin towers has problems. I think the government needs to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition to put it to bed and shut down the conspiracy theories. I would like to see the NIST engineers and scientists do the investigation with a special prosecutor appointed by Congress overseeing their work and not an executive branch political appointee. That would ensure no political intrusion and keep everyone free of suspicion.

Ah, yes--
The cut-and-run tactic when confronted with questions the self-proclaimed expert should be able to answer off the top of his head.
Bye, bye, twoofer?

 

[ConspiRaider]

It has been a good chat and I didn't expect this post to get so many replies as fast as it did. Sorry if I didn't answer every reply but only wanted to bring up the point that physical evidence for the fire weakening theory is what is weak and unfortunately this theory for the collapse of the twin towers has problems. I think the government needs to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition to put it to bed and shut down the conspiracy theories. I would like to see the NIST engineers and scientists do the investigation with a special prosecutor appointed by Congress overseeing their work and not an executive branch political appointee. That would ensure no political intrusion and keep everyone free of suspicion.

RealCDdeal -

Truth be told I thought your forum name was advertising where you could get like really awesome music dirt cheap. Dirty deals, done dirt cheap. Like that.

However I plowed through my embarrassment and landed on your parting (?) post. How in the living hell can "the government" investigate the possibility of CD when you already think they are hinky? One guy and/or girl appointed by "Congress" is good enough for you? Is that from the House or Senate? What if the appointee is Democrat? Or Republican? And that ensures "no political intrusion" - exactly HOW?!?

On the off-chance that you are dealing music CDs, I'm looking for: Slim Whitman: The Original Rap Songs.

 

[rwguinn]

RealCDdeal -

Truth be told I thought your forum name was advertising where you could get like really awesome music dirt cheap. Dirty deals, done dirt cheap. Like that.

However I plowed through my embarrassment and landed on your parting (?) post. How it the living hell can "the government" investigate the possibility of CD when you already think they are hinky? One guy and/or girl appointed by "Congress" is good enough for you? Is that from the House or Senate? Is that Democrat or Republican? And that ensures "no political intrusion" - exactly HOW?!?

On the off-chance that you are dealing music CDs, I'm looking for: Slim Whitman: The Original Rap Songs.

Hey_i wish I'd known. I saw that one yesterday, righjt next to "The Carpenters Heavy Metal Covers"

 

[boloboffin]

The funny thing is, the NIST damage analyses were then used to inform and help test the accuracy of the computer model of the towers. The paint test and the other test (sorry, not a engineer, just an actor) showed that the computer model should predict cool zones in the core.

It did!

 

[Gravy]

I cannot help but be highly suspicious of political forces here if they actually sorted through a lot of the steel and then only tested 1% of it. What is going on?

If there was a conspiracy I sincerely doubt it involved any of the technical people at NIST and I am bothered about this little glitch in their being handed a small proportion of the facts to investigate the case. I have not seen an argument as to why more steel could not be salvaged for them to perform their investigation. The steel was numbered and also had varying wall thickness depending on its vertical location.

I don't believe for a minute that the engineers and scientists at NIST are either incompetent or corrupt.

I think it's important that you understand the incompatibility of these statements with each other and with the facts. With two exceptions, the ASCE/FEMA engineers made ALL the decisions about what was to be saved for further study. You can't claim interference by some shadowy political process without involving many engineers in the conspiracy. From FEMA Report 403, appendix D:

As of March 15, 2002, a total of 131 engineer visits had been made to these yards on 57 separate days.

An engineer visit typically ranged from a few hours to an entire day at a salvage yard. The duration of the visits, number of visits per yard, and the dates the yards were visited varied, depending on the volume of steel being processed, the potential significance of the steel pieces being found, salvage yard activities, weather, and other factors. Sixty-two engineer trips were made to Jersey City, 38 to Keasbey, 15 to Fresh Kills, and 16 to Newark.

Three trips made in October included several ASCE engineers. Eleven engineer trips were made in November, 41 in December, 43 in January, 28 in February, and 5 through March 15, 2002.

D.3.1 Identifying and Saving Pieces
As shown in Figure D-4, the engineers searched through unsorted piles of steel for pieces from WTC 1
and WTC 2 impact areas and from WTC 5 and WTC 7. They also checked for pieces of steel exposed to fire.
Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
• Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire
and/or impacted by the aircraft.
• Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact
zone.
• Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.
• Connections from WTC 1, 2, and 7, such as seat connections, single shear plates, and column splices.
• Bolts from WTC 1, 2, and 7 that were exposed to fire, fractured, and/or that appeared undamaged.
• Floor trusses, including stiffeners, seats, and other components.
• Any piece that, in the engineer’s professional opinion, might be useful for evaluation. When there was any doubt about a particular piece, the piece was kept while more information was gathered. A conservative approach was taken to avoid having important pieces processed in salvage yard operations.

The two exceptions to engineer involvement I mentioned were in the first couple of weeks after September 11, when no one thought of asking for steel to be preserved, and at least one incident where steel marked to be saved was accidentally destroyed at the scrap yard, as mentioned in the FEMA report.

 

[ConspiRaider]

Hey_i wish I'd known. I saw that one yesterday, righjt next to "The Carpenters Heavy Metal Covers"

I think that was a limited run so they'd be worth Big Bux at a CD convention in the year 2138 AD. I hope you picked one up, man, that's gold.

I've got my hopes set on: The Wiz Soundtrack presented by The Andrews Sisters.

 

[rwguinn]

The funny thing is, the NIST damage analyses were then used to inform and help test the accuracy of the computer model of the towers. The paint test and the other test (sorry, not a engineer, just an actor) showed that the computer model should predict cool zones in the core.

It did!

Now you've done went and let the cat outta the bag. Now the unrealthing will have the answer that R.Mackey and I were trying to get him to produce--an answer an engineer would have assumed from the start.
Correlation of analytical models with reality is somewhat important in real life...

Send boloboffin a cookie and the "got it in one" plaque, R.Mackey...and I guess he should now be on the NWO payroll?

 

[Gravy]

I think the government needs to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition to put it to bed and shut down the conspiracy theories.

Your opinion is noted, as it was after your first post.

I'll echo kookbreaker's comment: NOTHING is going to "shut down" conspiracy theories, especially a government investigation, because these theories are made out of whole cloth. Nor is it the government's job to cater to the whims of conspiracy theorists.

However, there are facts aplenty that refute these theories with no further investigation needed. You just have to be a rational person who values truth over fantasy. In my signature you'll find a ink to many resources for accurate information about 9/11 issues.

I take it you're not going to contact the engineers involved, then?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Ah, yes--
The cut-and-run tactic when confronted with questions the self-proclaimed expert should be able to answer off the top of his head.
Bye, bye, twoofer?

What's a twoofer there goofer? I love the intelligent discussion that seems to come from you. What questions didn't I answer that I should have off the top of my head?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Your opinion is noted, as it was after your first post.

I'll echo kookbreaker's comment: NOTHING is going to "shut down" conspiracy theories, especially a government investigation, because these theories are made out of whole cloth. Nor is it the government's job to cater to the whims of conspiracy theorists.

However, there are facts aplenty that refute these theories with no further investigation needed. You just have to be a rational person who values truth over fantasy. In my signature you'll find a ink to many resources for accurate information about 9/11 issues.

I take it you're not going to contact the engineers involved, then?

I would very much like to ask questions of the volunteer ASCE members like Gene Corley. You were right that that is where I should go for answers.

I don't agree that a government investigation can't shut down conspiracy theories. They have to be fully honest and open to do it though. When the Space Shuttle Challenger blew up there was an open honest investigation and some people got real egg on their faces for mistakes made, granted they were also made under pressure to make the launch. Nobody has a conspiracy theory about that or at least it isn't a large group of people who have doubts about the thoroughness and honesty of that investigation. Same goes for when the Columbia blew up. Many of us believed it was the foam that damaged the tiles and it was testing that proved it was true. No conspiracy theories exist about that one either. The present fire weakening theory has yet to be shown as possible with physical models. I seriously don't believe it can be done.

 

[Totovader]

What's a twoofer there goofer? I love the intelligent discussion that seems to come from you. What questions didn't I answer that I should have off the top of my head?

Well, putting that "1%" into context would be nice... "1%" of what? The sum total of steel at the WTC site? So you suggest it all should have been tested, regardless of its location?

No?

Then I refer you back to the explanation as to why it was "1%". You seem to have avoided this- and indeed answered around it.

And again, evidence for CD is... nada. As a scientist, this should not be such a tough comparison.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

The funny thing is, the NIST damage analyses were then used to inform and help test the accuracy of the computer model of the towers. The paint test and the other test (sorry, not a engineer, just an actor) showed that the computer model should predict cool zones in the core.

It did!

Do you really believe that the spheroidization tests of the steel microstructure was only to validate computer models. That is not what NIST says they were for.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Well, putting that "1%" into context would be nice... "1%" of what? The sum total of steel at the WTC site? So you suggest it all should have been tested, regardless of its location?

No?

Then I refer you back to the explanation as to why it was "1%". You seem to have avoided this- and indeed answered around it.

And again, evidence for CD is... nada. As a scientist, this should not be such a tough comparison.

I think a reasonable sample would have been something like 30% of the steel in the fire affected areas to be able to draw any conclusions. In their report, NIST basically said 1% was not enough themselves.

 

[R.Mackey]

I think a reasonable sample would have been something like 30% of the steel in the fire affected areas to be able to draw any conclusions. In their report, NIST basically said 1% was not enough themselves.

You are, of course, aware that over 90% of the steel had nothing to do with the impact or fires, correct?

Where did you see the bit bolded above? I've read NIST cover to cover and don't remember seeing that. Reference, please.