What to do with prostitutes

[The Atheist]

I wish I had the words to express that Men do not stand tall while reaching low for a Woman.

Karma Sutra position the seventh. Piece of cake.

It is unfortunate that not many hookers or male prostitutes have computers.

Regards
DL

Oh boy, if you wanted to double up on your ignorance, that's a good way to start. You are so far out of touch, it's laughable.

I'd say that at least 80% of New Zealand's legal hookers advertise and have websites.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Oops

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Greatest I am seems to have a very weird understanding of what sex actually is...

Tell me, Greatest I am, have you ever actually had sex? Have you ever felt lust or love? Ever had an orgasm induced by someone other than yourself? Don't you realise that not every sexual encounter results in an orgasm? And yes, prostitutes can orgasm whilst with a client - just go ask some of them.

And I really have to laugh when you state:

Orgasm and mutual pleasure is not the purpose of sex.

Bwahahahahahahaha!!! Mutual pleasure is the primary purpose of sex. Only a small percentage of people solely have sex for procreation. The majority of people in the Western world having sex use prophylactics, to specifically ensure that they don't procreate!

I think I'd like for you to answer Z's questions in post #315.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Loss Leader]

Allow me to ask you a few personal questions:

1) How old are you? Rough estimate will do.
2) Are you presently in a loving, committed relationship?
3) Have you ever had sex outside of a loving, committed relationship?
4) Is your opinion largely based on your religious beliefs?

More questions may follow, but depend upon the answer to those four questions..

GIA is, as far as I have gathered, an elderly or late-middle aged man. He has been married for a long, long time. Several decades ago he had a religious experience where he believes God communicated with him telepathically and gave him a message. He stayed silent for many years out of fear. Thye message turns out to be that heaven is organized "demographically" and that we should organize ourselves the same way.

Despite the common meaning of "demographic," GIA appears to think it means that the command structure of heaven is a pyramid shape and that people should sort themselves by race. He believes that one should prefer members of one's own race and that this is some sort of "positive" racism which somehow increases productivity.

GIA is extraordinarily deistic. He believes in God and probably believes in the New Testament version of God. Nevertheless, he is not a churchgoer and doesn't believe any of the current churches have the answers right.

He is guided entirely by a sense of moral righiousness which seems to be a mixture of some type of European machismo ("men should take care of the world to protect women and children"), vague Sunday school notions of divine judgment and a touch of run-of-the-mill crazy.

I suspect he may be in France. I do not know if he has ever had sex outside of marriage.

 

[Z]

Ahhh... so he's an old-school racist and sexist, as well as religious follower who's never actually thought about his religion, whose experiences are probably limited to a neo-conservative home, an even more conservative church, a conservative work environment, and, on rare occasions, trips to the store.

That explains a lot, actually.

 

[Harpoon]

In this portion of rural Nevada prostitution is regulated by city code. There are two brothels in our community.

The prostitutes receive weekly health exams.

The system of regulated prostitution certainly provides the 'working girls' with better and safer working conditions. Customers also are protected.

But that's not the point. It's a matter of public health and safety. The crime and disease associated with street prostitution is non-existent here.

Both brothels were closed temporarily in the late '90s. Within weeks, indendent contractors began to fill the void, and were trolling the downtown casinos until the brothels re-opened.

No society has found an effective method to prevent prostitution.

Regulation is a reasonable method to protect the general public from the disease and crime associated with it, however.

Nevada's system is hardly fool proof from many standpoints. But I've yet to hear of any customer in a Nevada brothel being exposed to HIV, or HIV infection in the community being traced back to a brothel. The state has issued warnings whenever an STD-infected worker has been identified.

The locale and dates of her employment are released to the public with advice for customers at that specific brothel in that time frame to seek medical attention. Such notices are rare.

This isn't a perfect system. But it seems to reduce the impact of prostitution on the community. Regulation seems better than non-regulated.

Sorry if this has already been beat to death in previous posts.

 

[Lensman]

Back to the OP, "What should we do with prostitutes?"

Pay them!

How is prostitution any different from going on a "traditional" date?

A mid-range prostitute would cost somewhere in the region of 40 whatever the units of currency are in your country, you pay it & "get your leg over".

A "traditional" date could cost you considerably more (chocolates/flowers, meal & show/movie, drinks & taxi fare) & at the end of it you MAY get your leg over - if you're lucky - if you're not careful, it could cost a LOT more. If she suddenly changes her mind, you could be in a whole load of trouble.

IMO, prostitution is more honest.

 

[Gnu Ordure]

How does paying for it make the sex any different???

asked tgho,

Paid-for sex is just casual sex with a financial transaction applied.

posited z.


That's what I disagree with.

z, the financial transaction isn't an optional extra, like stockings or something; it fundamentally changes the nature of the interaction. There is a world of difference between necking with a girl on your sofa, wondering how far you can go, whether she likes you, whether she wants what you want, feeling nervous, and so on.... and ... necking with the same girl on the same sofa, knowing you've paid her 200 hundred dollars and you can do what the hell you want.

The 'sex' might be the same; ie the physical behaviour; but the experience would be completely different (for both parties).

The ulterior motive (the financial transaction) alters the experience.

It becomes inauthentic - it's no longer real - it's an act.

There is always a give and take, always a price to be paid, in sex.

such cyncism, myl; sex is always a transaction, is it ? I agree on the give and take part - good sex implies consideration and compromise - but paying a price ?

Sometimes, sure.

But love is given freely, without thought of recompense or reward.

So there can be no price on loving sex - and so it can't be bought.


.

 

[Wheezebucket]

Wouldn't it be great if we all lived in a Disney movie?

 

[MelBrooksfan]

Wouldn't it be great if we all lived in a Disney movie?

That depends on the Disney movie.

 

[Z]

z, the financial transaction isn't an optional extra, like stockings or something; it fundamentally changes the nature of the interaction. There is a world of difference between necking with a girl on your sofa, wondering how far you can go, whether she likes you, whether she wants what you want, feeling nervous, and so on.... and ... necking with the same girl on the same sofa, knowing you've paid her 200 hundred dollars and you can do what the hell you want.

You're right - prostitution is much more honest and realistic. You go in knowing you're going to have sex, not wondering. And you know there's nothing else expected of you. It's a much simpler set-up.

The 'sex' might be the same; ie the physical behaviour; but the experience would be completely different (for both parties).

He didn't ask about the experience; he asked about the sex.

The ulterior motive (the financial transaction) alters the experience.

It becomes inauthentic - it's no longer real - it's an act.

Utter nonsense. It's sex. In fact, it's guaranteed sex. If sex is what you're after, it's the most real form you can get.

If, on the other hand - as I suspect - you're continuing to conflate love with sex, then no, it's completely in authentic. But love is not an integral part of sex, and vice-versa.

such cyncism, myl; sex is always a transaction, is it ? I agree on the give and take part - good sex implies consideration and compromise - but paying a price ?

Yep. There's always some price.

But love is given freely, without thought of recompense or reward.

So there can be no price on loving sex - and so it can't be bought.

What does love have to do with sex?

That's not the discussion, is it?

(And, by the way, love is rarely 'given freely'. Maybe in an idealistic dream world, but not in the real world.)

 

[The Great Hairy One]

z, the financial transaction isn't an optional extra, like stockings or something; it fundamentally changes the nature of the interaction. There is a world of difference between necking with a girl on your sofa, wondering how far you can go, whether she likes you, whether she wants what you want, feeling nervous, and so on.... and ... necking with the same girl on the same sofa, knowing you've paid her 200 hundred dollars and you can do what the hell you want.

The 'sex' might be the same; ie the physical behaviour; but the experience would be completely different (for both parties).

The ulterior motive (the financial transaction) alters the experience.

It becomes inauthentic - it's no longer real - it's an act.

I do not understand what you are saying here.

The physical act itself does not change regardless whether or not you are paying for it or not.

You've already agreed that enjoyable, satisfying and passionate sex can be had between two people who are casual acquaintances or just good friends. So how does this differ when money suddenly comes into the equation? What changes in the actual physical act of sex???

Let's leave love aside for now, it's not what's under discussion here.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Gnu Ordure]

OK, here's a proposition.

Prostitution is bad for most prostitutes.

Forget Nevada, New Zealand, Holland; the vast majority of the world's prostitutes operate in a grey zone of illegality and police corruption.


Here's some facts :

1. Prostitutes are more at risk of physical attack than any other profession.

2. Prostitutes are more at risk of sexual assault than any other profession.


So for those of you who were happy for your daughters to become prostitutes... I have to question your call on that one ..


And anyway, I don't believe you. Here's two questions:

For guys with partners: imagine she comes home one night and says she's fed up with being a secretary, and wants to be a prostitute instead.

Apparently, it's not immoral, and it's not unethical, and it's certainly respectable.... so what's the problem ?

Why would you object ? The A's partner was happy to fund him to go and see a hooker - why object if she wants to be a hooker herself ?

If you have objections, please explain them.

For guys without partners : (sorry if the dinner-date example was too complicated, by the way; I thought it was quite simple myself, but other people introduced the ideas of deceit, compulsion and psychosis, which rather complicated things)...

A simpler example..

Imagine you're at a party...

You meet this woman, she's fun, you like her; after half an hour, she asks you what you do ("I'm a web designer"), so you ask what she does ("I'm a hooker").

Stop right there.

Question : do you still want her to be your girl-friend ?

Are you going to be proud to introduce her to your friends, or your parents ? ("Hi Mom, this is Karen - she's a prostitute").

Are you going to be happy to make love to her on a Friday night, knowing that you are the 37th guy that week who's made that trip ?

Are you going to be happy to be accompanying her to the clinic, every four weeks, to find out the blood-test results and whether one burst condom has fatally infected her ?

Get real.





Having a partner is one of the things that prostitutes sacrifice. Nobody wants a whore for a girl-friend.

And even if they find a temporary partner, their sex-life is ruined - how can it have any semblance of normality, given the context.


This is why prostitution is so damaging; it alienates its practitioners, and cuts them off from the normal sources of human comfort.

There are other well-recognized harmful effects of this profession:

Over time, the constant violence of prostitution, the constant humiliation, and the social indignity and misogyny, result in personality changes. Herman (1992) described long-term changes in trauma survivors' emotional regulation, changes in consciousness, changes in self-perception, changes in perception of perpetrator(s), changes in relations with others, and changes in systems of meaning.

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/fempsy1.html


Common-sense says that going to work every day knowing that you may be assaulted, raped or murdered, and that if you are assaulted or raped you will have no recourse to law - that has an effect on your psyche, on your state of mind.

And it's not a good effect.

(Legalize it, though, as I said. Improve Health & Safety, as a minimum).


G.

 

[quixotecoyote]

OK, here's a proposition.

Prostitution is bad for most prostitutes.

Forget Nevada, New Zealand, Holland; the vast majority of the world's prostitutes operate in a grey zone of illegality and police corruption.
....

G.

I don't think anyone's arguing against that, only that it isn't bad in principle and the grey zone of illegality and corruption is what's causing the problems.

 

[Gnu Ordure]

I do not understand what you are saying here.

The physical act itself does not change regardless whether or not you are paying for it or not.

Agreed, tgho.

But sex is not just a meeting of bodies, a physical act.

It is a meeting of two people, and their thoughts and feelings about each other.

When you go to bed with someone, you go to bed with someone - not a body, or a torso, or a vagina.

And it therefore makes a crucial difference whether the person you're in bed with is there because they want to be, or because they've been paid to be.




Gnu.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

OK, here's a proposition.

Prostitution is bad for most prostitutes.

Forget Nevada, New Zealand, Holland; the vast majority of the world's prostitutes operate in a grey zone of illegality and police corruption.

It's legal here in Australia as well, just as a note of interest.

And you'll have to provide evidence that prostitution is bad for most prostitutes before I'll accept that comment at face value.

Here's some facts :

1. Prostitutes are more at risk of physical attack than any other profession.

2. Prostitutes are more at risk of sexual assault than any other profession.

Only where prostitution is illegal. The cure to these problems is to legalise the profession.

So for those of you who were happy for your daughters to become prostitutes... I have to question your call on that one ..


And anyway, I don't believe you. Here's two questions:

For guys with partners: imagine she comes home one night and says she's fed up with being a secretary, and wants to be a prostitute instead.

Apparently, it's not immoral, and it's not unethical, and it's certainly respectable.... so what's the problem ?

Why would you object ? The A's partner was happy to fund him to go and see a hooker - why object if she wants to be a hooker herself ?

If you have objections, please explain them.

I would object solely on the ground that I'm a monogamous person, and when in a relationship I expect my partner to be monogamous too. It's just a personal quirk of mine, I have several friends who are polygamous, and they have quite healthy and happy relationships.

For guys without partners : (sorry if the dinner-date example was too complicated, by the way; I thought it was quite simple myself, but other people introduced the ideas of deceit, compulsion and psychosis, which rather complicated things)...

A simpler example..

Imagine you're at a party...

You meet this woman, she's fun, you like her; after half an hour, she asks you what you do ("I'm a web designer"), so you ask what she does ("I'm a hooker").

Stop right there.

Question : do you still want her to be your girl-friend ?

Are you going to be proud to introduce her to your friends, or your parents ? ("Hi Mom, this is Karen - she's a prostitute").

Are you going to be happy to make love to her on a Friday night, knowing that you are the 37th guy that week who's made that trip ?

Are you going to be happy to be accompanying her to the clinic, every four weeks, to find out the blood-test results and whether one burst condom has fatally infected her ?

Get real.

As I said, I am a monogamous type of person.

However, just because someone works in sex work does not diminish them as a person.

Having a partner is one of the things that prostitutes sacrifice. Nobody wants a whore for a girl-friend.

And even they find a temporary partner, their sex-life is ruined - how can it have any semblance of normality, given the context.

This is why prostitution is so damaging; it alienates its practitioners, and cuts them off from the normal sources of human comfort.

This is your personal opinion. It's not an objective fact. You can't back this up with actual evidence, it's only personal preference.

There are other well-recognized harmful effects of this profession:

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/fempsy1.html

You can not use Dr Melissa Farley as an objective researcher when it comes to prostitution - she's a radical, anti-sex feminist who believes that sex work of any type, including pornography, is highly damaging to women.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Farley

Common-sense says that going to work every day knowing that you may be assaulted, raped or murdered, and that if you are assaulted or raped you will have no recourse to law - that has an effect on your psyche, on your state of mind.

And it's not a good effect.

This is only true where prostitution is illegal. Legalisation fixes these problems.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Agreed, tgho.

But sex is not just a meeting of bodies, a physical act.

It is a meeting of two people, and their thoughts and feelings about each other.

When you go to bed with someone, you go to bed with someone - not a body, or a torso, or a vagina.

And it therefore makes a crucial difference whether the person you're in bed with is there because they want to be, or because they've been paid to be.

How does the exchange of money make a difference? Exactly what changes when money changes hands?

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[largeprimenumber]

I wish I had the words to express that Men do not stand tall while reaching low for a Woman.

-1: poor rhetoric

It is unfortunate that not many hookers or male prostitutes have computers.


Regards
DL

For someone who purports to have their interests at heart, you sure do like to use pejorative terms for them. Oh, except for the male ones.

 

[slingblade]

Having a partner is one of the things that prostitutes sacrifice. Nobody wants a whore for a girl-friend.
G.

You don't know any. That's my estimate.

You said to leave out Nevada, but I can't, since that's where the ones I know live and work. And many of them are married.

 

[Wheezebucket]

Having a partner is one of the things that prostitutes sacrifice. Nobody wants a whore for a girl-friend.

Are you ****ing kidding me? So a woman who has sex for money is somehow less than a person? Tell that to my friend who's married to a prostitute, I'm sure he'd love to hear that the woman he loves is, in your eyes, a sub-human. And for the record, she happens to be very well educated, makes more money in a month than you probably do in a year, and has been happily married for going on 5 years now. Plus she's hilarious, not to mention smokin' hot and VD free.

Again, please stop confusing your Disney fantasies with reality. And try not to delude yourself into thinking you're better than somebody just because they don't subscribe to your twisted ideas about morality.