Does anyone else back up William Rodriguez's story?

[Gravy]

Correction: I cut and pasted too fast above. Ron DiFrancesco's account is about the collapse of the south tower, which he experienced when outside the building.

 

[bje]

Swing demonstrates he loses argument - again.

Multiple floors: can you be more specific?

BJEAnd yet you claim to know how the whole bloody thing happened from beginning to end. are you still claiming to know the official collapse time of WTC 7? Whole bloody thing? I don't recall stating that.

How convenient of you to forget.

I've presented a working theory on this thread on how explosives could have been used in the sub-basement in the North Tower, and possibly elsewhere.

No, you have done no such thing. You claim, instead, that "fireballs" is a myth and refuse to present any evidence about so-called "explosives"; how they were planted, by whom, why, how much, and any actual forensic evidence to support the claim.

That is why you have lost, Swing.

 

[Swing Dangler]

Oh Gravy here you go again:

Did flight 175 hit the south tower core? Yes or no?

Hey wake up Gravy. The discussion is about the Willie R. and the North Tower basement levels, not the South Tower's impact zones and its damage. Why do you keep doing that?

BJE-No, you have done no such thing. You claim, instead, that "fireballs" is a myth and refuse to present any evidence about so-called "explosives"; how they were planted, by whom, why, how much, and any actual forensic evidence to support the claim. That is why you have lost, Swing.

You are comical as you have missed the entire thread apparently where I presented at least two possible suspects, victim accounts of injury and damage to the environment, possible means and methods, as well as .
I've pointed out errors and assumptions in the NIST report supporting a fireball excuse.
The forensic empirical evidence has been destroyed in the collapse which was covered on like page 2 or 3 of this thread which resulted in the whole empirical evidence and the empirical method issue. Go back and read to catch up.

I've lost because of this:

1. Everyone continues to ignore how the fireball damaged the substructures far below the impact zone. With no scientific data supporting the energy required, we are asked to accept assumptions and errors.

2. No one cares to trace the route of the jet fuel or for that matter the fireball and which shaft or shafts it traveled down.

3. No one seems to care that NIST left out the big gaping whole in WTC: North Tower as an source of oxygen for combustion thereby arriving at unsupported remaining levels of fuel supposedly responsible for such destruction experienced so near the impact.

4. No one cares that there is no scientific data supporting the fire or jet fuel energy after impact needed to cause the damage in the basement.

5. No one cares that it takes two miracles in the North Tower for the fireball explanation to hold true.

6. The only person at least attempting to explain the offical fireball has to use the South Tower in a false analogy fallacy and misleading colored drawings in his own error filled character attack of Willie R.

7. Everyone disregards the first thoughts and reminders of the 1993 truck bomb many witnesses were reminded of and the FBI's first hypothesis.

8. Everyone ignores the historical tactics of terrorists around the globe in regards to attacks on structures.

I've lost BJE? The only thing I was incorrect on was the color of kerosene vapor that is produced by a process used in smoke machines and a dam kerosene heater!!!
I've lost because neither the official excuse nor the explosive device can't be proven through empirical evidence because of global collapse??
You do more to enable terrorists more than ANY conspiracy theorist could by ignoring the empirical method that points to an explosive device used in the sub-levels of WTC: North Tower. Al-Q is loving you right now! In the next terrorist attack on a building, all the terrorists will have to do is start a fire and cut some elevator cables to cease any investigation.
Your only solution to terrorists attacks against other high rise structures around the world? BETTER FIREPROOFING!

 

[Woody-]

Call me baffled by this argument that since only a few shafts were continuous fuel couldn't flow down the towers.

Each of those express elevators had a capacity of 55 people. I dont know the exact dimensions but I'm guessing at least a 10 ft by 10 ft shaft, but probably larger. How much fuel can you pour down a 100 square foot opening? Its not like you trying to force it through a hose, its a freaking gaping hole. If only one of the shafts was "open" there was more than enough room for the jet fuel to travel down the tower.

 

[LashL]

Perhaps this is an obvious point regarding elevator shafts but it seems to be overlooked frequently so I thought I would mention it.

Just because an elevator does not travel below a certain floor does not mean that the shaft does not continue below the level that the elevator services. There are elevator pits below, which means that, of necessity, the shafts extend below the level that the elevator actually services.

Similarly, the shafts also extend above the top floor that an elevator actually services. In the WTC, for instance, the shafts for the large express elevators to the 78th floor skylobby extended to the 80th floor.

So, every one of the shafts housing the large express elevators to the 78th floor skylobby extended from at least floor 80 to below ground level.

 

[LashL]

Elevator cars 6, 7, and 50 were the only to extend from the lower levels to above the 78th floor skylobby. The significance of this is that we know which shafts the fuel had to of come down. There are some reports including within Gravy's paper that conflict with this information.

See my post above. Those elevator cars may have been the only ones to service floors from below grade to above 78, but the shafts housing several other elevator cars also extended from below grade to above 78.

 

[beachnut]

1. Everyone continues to ignore how the fireball damaged the substructures far below the impact zone. With no scientific data supporting the energy required, we are asked to accept assumptions and errors.

I have never seen proof of any substucture damage. I have heard hearsay. It would be cool if you could site the substucture proof of damage. If you are talking about an explosive device, a large one, then forget it, William would of been killed in a large one, or there would have been dead guys instead of burnt guys.

2. No one cares to trace the route of the jet fuel or for that matter the fireball and which shaft or shafts it traveled down.

If it means that much to you, then you could do it. Or are you just asking questions. What is your purpose, or goal?

3. No one seems to care that NIST left out the big gaping whole in WTC: North Tower as an source of oxygen for combustion thereby arriving at unsupported remaining levels of fuel supposedly responsible for such destruction experienced so near the impact.

What are you talking about? There is oxygen all around, and a big giant hole in both towers, so? But the initial impact fireball would be unique and could us up all the initial oxygen in the area, but I have to study fuel air mixture bombs. Study time. But how would this help our hero William who can not figure out what he heard or when he heard it. This will not help Williams decent into being with the liars of 9/11 truth. (further study needed)

4. No one cares that there is no scientific data supporting the fire or jet fuel energy after impact needed to cause the damage in the basement.

What damage in the basement? Exactly what damage was caused, and how much energy did it require to do?

5. No one cares that it takes two miracles in the North Tower for the fireball explanation to hold true.

Just you. But what did the fireball do? And only you hold the miracle thing. You are unique. But you are very hung up on William being your hero, or what? Are you William?

6. The only person at least attempting to explain the offical fireball has to use the South Tower in a false analogy fallacy and misleading colored drawings in his own error filled character attack of Willie R.

What does this mean? William does not need a fire ball to show he is truthy and making up stuff about 9/11.

7. Everyone disregards the first thoughts and reminders of the 1993 truck bomb many witnesses were reminded of and the FBI's first hypothesis.

9/11, can you do a better job relating this to 9/11?

8. Everyone ignores the historical tactics of terrorists around the globe in regards to attacks on structures.

And what are those? And what does this have to do with William? Are you trying to be hard to follow? How long have you been a truther with no facts?

I've lost BJE? The only thing I was incorrect on was the color of kerosene vapor that is produced by a process used in smoke machines and a dam kerosene heater!!!

I've lost because neither the official excuse nor the explosive device can't be proven through empirical evidence because of global collapse??

Yes you lost, jet fuel looks white when it is disperse in tiny droplets. No heater required, you are still trying to claim some points on that point. Lost. There were no explosives used to bring down the WTC towers on 9/11, it can be proven empirically and has been many times. You must be closed mined, and not thinking out of the box. No explosives in the WTC. Why would terrorist plant explosives in the WTC when they are running jets into the damn things? That would be stupid and not very good tactics. Only a truther would think up stupid stuff like explosives.

You do more to enable terrorists more than ANY conspiracy theorist could by ignoring the empirical method that points to an explosive device used in the sub-levels of WTC: North Tower. Al-Q is loving you right now! In the next terrorist attack on a building, all the terrorists will have to do is start a fire and cut some elevator cables to cease any investigation.

This is not a very logical statement, now is it? There is nothing pointing to explosives in the subbasements. You are one funny guy. No facts, and trying to make up stuff to support a hero who has moved to zero. William is a truther who says he is not. He has sued like a truther, and he speaks the truther circuit. He is a truther. Sounds like, is not the same as is. President Clinton can help yhou with the meaning of is, if you need help.

Your only solution to terrorists attacks against other high rise structures around the world? BETTER FIREPROOFING!

If they said concrete covered steel for better Fireproofing, then that would also help against a terrorist attack. Oops, WTC7 is new, and it has a stronger escape structure incase of intentional bad stuff. OMG, using what we learned to make things better. Oops, we messed up, the anti-terrorist stuff is better fireproofing, is that bad? I think you messed this point up, and need to try again.

William needs help, but since you were not there on 9/11, you are 5 years too late to save William from his fall into the fraud of 9/11 "truth".

 

[CHF]

Swing,

Who rigged up the towers?

Are you saying Al Qaeda did the planes and sub-levels of the North tower while the CIA handled the planting of bombs in the rest of the complex?

Please stop being a coward and clarify your position.

 

[Arus808]

the paper isn't supposed to support anything; IT demonstrates the EVERY CHANGING claims of the supposed LAST MAN out of the North Tower (well, by his claims, the last survivor of North Tower)

Swing, youve shown that you do not understand what you are talking about, and like every truther out there, you take "bits and pieces" of technical information; witnesses statements and ignore the rest if it doesn't support your claims. Why should we even believe what you say, when you can't even answer one question that has been posted to you several times


why
would
any
terrorist
plant
bombs
in
the
basement
if
they
planned
for
a
top
down
collapse?


Didn't the 1993 bombing tell the terrorist anything? Yes. They learned that any basement bombing WOULD BE USELESS. that is why they resorted to using airplanes as missiles to be flown into the buildings

anything else, it doesn't matter

this thread is SUPPOSED to be about Willie Rodriguez and his ever chaning statements.

 

[CHF]

Why should we even believe what you say, when you can't even answer one question that has been posted to you several times

why
would
any
terrorist
plant
bombs
in
the
basement
if
they
planned
for
a
top
down
collapse?

I was hoping Swing would eventually handle that one himself but I guess its not to be.

His answer to that question on SLC has been that the perps needed to weaken the core at the base in order to aid the top down-collapse.

No, I don't get it either.

Things tend to go really quiet when he's asked why parts of the core remained standing after the collapse.

So I guess Swing's answer can basically be summed up as: "I dunno."

 

[Arus808]

well, as long as we show that these "seekers" of truth are grasping at straws, then all the more to it. Swing has dmeonstrated over three sites, that he is ignornat of what he speaks about, and that he refuses to take the time to educate himself; and rather stay in the small world he created for himself.

 

[Swing Dangler]

I was hoping Swing would eventually handle that one himself but I guess its not to be.

Please show me where terrorists thought they would achieve a top down collapse as you state they wanted one. According to an OBL tape, they didn't think a global collapse would take place by the plane's impact.

CHF, are you looking for that grand unified theory again? Sorry. I don't have it.

They learned that any basement bombing WOULD BE USELESS. that is why they resorted to using airplanes as missiles to be flown into the buildings

A basement bomb alone, ARUS, did not bring the buildings down. And besides, what is your definition of a terrorist attack.
Oh and thanks for ignoring the moderator's request in the sticky thread they posted.

I have never seen proof of any substucture damage. I have heard hearsay. It would be cool if you could site the substucture proof of damage. If you are talking about an explosive device, a large one, then forget it, William would of been killed in a large one, or there would have been dead guys instead of burnt guys.

I've already address the proof, the empirical proof of both an explosive device and a fireball. There is no empirical proof, hence the empirical method through the examination of first person eyewitnesses statements, PA transcripts, etc. to arrive at the hypothesis. Funny you mention who should have died and who didn't. In 1993, only 6 people died.
The basement damage is cited earlier in the thread.

If it means that much to you, then you could do it. Or are you just asking questions. What is your purpose, or goal?

The burden of proof that a fireball or jetfuel caused the damage and injury witnessed in the basement lays upon NIST or defenders of their story. Until it can shown, it is a story, not a fact.

What are you talking about? There is oxygen all around, and a big giant hole in both towers, so? But the initial impact fireball would be unique and could us up all the initial oxygen in the area, but I have to study fuel air mixture bombs.

You didn't read the comments below or the NIST report then surrounding the North Tower fire and fuel?
NIST concluded that 40-50% of the fuel remained in the towers. They came to this calculation by calculating fuel combustion based upon the oxygen in one floor and then multiplied it by 4. They failed to account for the huge gapping whole as a source of oxygen, which of course would have reduced the amount of fuel.

Those elevator cars may have been the only ones to service floors from below grade to above 78, but the shafts housing several other elevator cars also extended from below grade to above 78.

LASHL, are you suggesting that all of the elevator shafts extended to the impact zone to the sub basement levels? Several graphics have been posted showing the length of the shafts. You may want to revisit those graphics.

What damage in the basement? Exactly what damage was caused, and how much energy did it require to do?

You should read the accounts of the victims that has been laid out earlier in the thread. A Cave in at B-4, a cave in at the PATH Plaza level, a machine shop destroyed, an office area blown up, parking garage and walls destroyed, additional walls destroyed.
I would like to the answer to the second question you pose as well. How much energy would it take to cause the environmental damage witnessed in the time period it was experienced.

Yes you lost, jet fuel looks white when it is disperse in tiny droplets.

Are you talking about jet fuel dumped out of planes at high altitudes intermixed with water vapor in comparison to white smoke in a basement or kerosene vapors from smoke machines. LOL! Oh god not this issue again.

Why would terrorist plant explosives in the WTC when they are running jets into the damn things?

I just love this question. Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread.
Well you first assumption would be that the terrorists somehow knew they would be 100% successful in their hijacking plan and the ensuing collapses. We now know they weren't of course.
That is a pretty huge assumption to make to disprove an explosive device.
Why would they use an explosive device in the subbasement?

1. If they are intercepted and diverted, they have the device.

2. If they are shot down, they have the device.

3. If they encounter struggles on the plane, they have the device.

4. If they miss the flight, they have the device.

5. If they miss the target, they have the device.

6. If the plane has mechanical problems, they have the device.

7. If terrorists have second thoughts and change their mind about dying, they have the device.

The goal was a terrorist attack on American targets, not a global collapse of the structures.
A two pronged terrorist attack on the towers, ensures a near fail-proof attack on the structures and was successful.

 

[Gravy]

What's the next step, Swing? What are you going to do with this theory of yours?

Second, is there anything that can make you believe that the damage on the lower levels was caused by jet fuel and falling elevators?

 

[CHF]

Please show me where terrorists thought they would achieve a top down collapse as you state they wanted one. According to an OBL tape, they didn't think a global collapse would take place by the plane's impact.

CHF, are you looking for that grand unified theory again? Sorry. I don't have it.

I didn't say the terrorists wanted or expected a top-down collapse. I'm simply trying to figure out what your claim is.

You stated that the basement bomb was the work of Al Qaeda. Yet you also stated on SLC that the towers were demolitions, with explosives planted throughout the building.

I'm trying to get you to reconcile one claim with the other.

Your theory has a plane impact and a basement bomb being the work of Islamic terrorists. So who planted the demolition charges in the rest of the building? Surely you must have some idea.

 

[Civilized Worm]

The basement bombs were planted by...

 

[LashL]

LASHL, are you suggesting that all of the elevator shafts extended to the impact zone to the sub basement levels?

No, Swing. Perhaps you should read more slowly, and for comprehension.

Here is what I said:

Just because an elevator does not travel below a certain floor does not mean that the shaft does not continue below the level that the elevator services. There are elevator pits below, which means that, of necessity, the shafts extend below the level that the elevator actually services.

Similarly, the shafts also extend above the top floor that an elevator actually services. In the WTC, for instance, the shafts for the large express elevators to the 78th floor skylobby extended to the 80th floor.

So, every one of the shafts housing the large express elevators to the 78th floor skylobby extended from at least floor 80 to below ground level.

See my post above. Those elevator cars may have been the only ones to service floors from below grade to above 78, but the shafts housing several other elevator cars also extended from below grade to above 78.

Note that the post immediately above was in response to hardlines' post about elevator cars 6, 7, and 50.

Note also that "several" does not mean "all" and I even spelled out which shafts were the several that I was referring to - that is, the shafts housing the large express elevator cars that serviced up to the 78th floor. Those shafts ran from below-grade to above the 78th floor in addition to the ones mentioned by hardlines.

 

[beachnut]

Are you talking about jet fuel dumped out of planes at high altitudes intermixed with water vapor in comparison to white smoke in a basement or kerosene vapors from smoke machines. LOL! Oh god not this issue again.

LOL, read carefully. Not water vapor, pure fuel dumped looks like a white cloud. I am not talking about jet exhaust, the jet fuel is gone in jet exhaust, the fire in a jet engine burns at 700 degree C, the fuel turns into water and CO2, that looks white, pure fuel looks white when it is a cloud of fuel. Fuel, with no water vapor still looks white, like a cloud; questions? Please stop making simple mistakes, pay attention.

Your seven step summary is funny stuff. Far out.

 

[R.Mackey]

I just love this question. Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread.
Well you first assumption would be that the terrorists somehow knew they would be 100% successful in their hijacking plan and the ensuing collapses. We now know they weren't of course.
That is a pretty huge assumption to make to disprove an explosive device.
Why would they use an explosive device in the subbasement?

1. If they are intercepted and diverted, they have the device.

2. If they are shot down, they have the device.

3. If they encounter struggles on the plane, they have the device.

4. If they miss the flight, they have the device.

5. If they miss the target, they have the device.

6. If the plane has mechanical problems, they have the device.

7. If terrorists have second thoughts and change their mind about dying, they have the device.

The goal was a terrorist attack on American targets, not a global collapse of the structures.
A two pronged terrorist attack on the towers, ensures a near fail-proof attack on the structures and was successful.

You just refuted yourself comprehensively. This "device" you're talking about could, by itself, ensure a "near fail-proof" attack.

In the scenario you just outlined, the airliners offer no advantages, and only risk -- in particular, the risk that someone might notice what a bizarrely complex plan they'd implemented. Since you seem to be one who "noticed," and you have only the barest access to evidence, I submit this was virtually guaranteed to occur.

You might enjoy my "WWaEGD" post explaining how all such theories are patently absurd, because anyone who could implement such a plan would also be capable of a far more successful one.

 

[Gravy]

Why would they use an explosive device in the subbasement?

1. If they are intercepted and diverted, they have the device.

2. If they are shot down, they have the device.

3. If they encounter struggles on the plane, they have the device.

4. If they miss the flight, they have the device.

5. If they miss the target, they have the device.

6. If the plane has mechanical problems, they have the device.

7. If terrorists have second thoughts and change their mind about dying, they have the device.

The goal was a terrorist attack on American targets, not a global collapse of the structures.
A two pronged terrorist attack on the towers, ensures a near fail-proof attack on the structures and was successful.

A device that produces a kerosene fireball that burns people and doesn't cause structural damage? Please explain the purpose of such a device. This is a fascinating theory.

No "Plan B" devices went off in the Pentagon. I wonder why.

No plane hit the Capitol building, yet no Plan B devices were set off there, or anywhere else in D.C. by the terrorists. I wonder why.

Finally, do you know the first rule of holes?

 

[Gravy]

You might enjoy my "WWaEGD" post explaining how all such theories are patently absurd, because anyone who could implement such a plan would also be capable of a far more successful one.

Seconded! Also, Swing, here's a whole page of resources to help with your critical thinking skills, logic, differentiating between bunkum and fact, understanding confirmation bias, 9/11 motives, Occam's razor, falsifiability, and why the 9/11 conspiracy theories are nonsense.