My First Ever Banning

[beachnut]

No I don't accept that after numerous pages of in depth calculations, a reputable MIT professor's meticulously calculated speed for UA-175 of 503 mph can be casually dismissed as equivalent to the NIST figure of 570 mph.


Regarding members of 9/11 Truth, do you really enjoy attacking and insulting fellow Americans and world citizens who are merely giving what they feel is thoughtful expression to their beliefs?

You have to be blind if you don't realize that you are a member of a group with a similar representation.

Some of you are brilliant and some of you are a**holes.

I hope you don't mind being 'played' because whether you realize it or not, you are!

Yes there are many who conveniently deserve the mocking labels people like yourself wish to saddle all of us with.

beachnut the followers of 9/11 truth are not a group of mean spirited paranoid neanderthals. They are ordinary human beings who aren't afraid to think outside of the box.

I'm not calling you a redneck..you certainly qualify as a "loose cannon "though.

My brother-in-law knows that I respect him as a person and that I am well aware that he is an intelligent man. We can't all be rocket scientists. I grew up in a small town of 4,000 people and I am not a snob about occupations. I've done farm labour, cleaned furnaces, worked in road construction, house painting, plumber's helper, in short, I've had a good look at both sides of the occupational fence. Some jobs are dirty, but they have to be done, and it doesn't mean that the person doing them should be equated with the job.

Those codecs referred to an area of my expertise that were not expected to be your area of expertise. Architect referred me to a topic that I was unfamiliar with and I just meant to give him a taste of his own medicine.

It's easy to preen in front of the mirror rejoicing at being a NASA engineer, a lawyer, a doctor, or a NYC our guide, but that doesn't make you superior to those who occupy less prestigious occupations. I 've now worked in broadcast TV for 35 years. I've met many Hollywood celebrities and I have met many heads of government. They are all 'real' people just like you and me. I used to be in awe of their celebrity status but over time I've seen to many of their human failings, heard too many farts, seen too much intoxication and listened to too much 'earthy' humour to remain under their celebrity spell.

I respect the NIST engineers and their qualifications. I'm sure they know far more about their areas of expertise than I ever will. I'm equally sure that just like many creators, authors, directors etc., they have limited control over how their work is used. And this is where you and I separate company. The NIST report is a product. It may have been sourced by hundred, thousands of good experts, but it's final output was controlled by a few key people who had final say and held an obedience to a higher ethic than honest science.

Courage doesn't just exist on the battlefield.

Just be your own man beachnut. That's all I'm trying to do.

MM

You can not even get close to covering you own tracks. You posted a reference to 500 mph from ATC, and a remark, twice the limit. Unknown to you, cause it is past your level of expertise, twice the limit is 500 KIAS, which is equal to 570 mph. Simple math seems to escape you as does logic, knowledge and comprehension. Sorry you do not want to discuss why KIAS and mph. You posted it, you missed it, and you still have missed it.

Your understanding of CODECs at best is a a lay person level. I doubt you can develop a program to develop your own CODEC. If you were able to understand and develop CODECs you would not be a truther. Sorry, but if you are a truther, higher level math and physics are beyond your grasp. As demonstrated when you can not even keep up with your own post on simple mph vs KIAS conversions and use by ATC, vs a news error in defining units.

If you do not understand the MPH vs KIAS discussion you posted, I do not understand your problem. You posted it, why are you so stubborn to learn what you posted. Your post debunked you. It appears you are the one who has a shallow knowledge on the airspeed. Proof is the fact you posted the very evidence to prove you reference airspeed of 503 to be improperly supported. Once again, you posted the proof and now you are too lazy to acknowledge the truth, or just too challenged to figure it out.

 

[Miragememories]

Again, that's fine.

But when said people are safe and far away from harm, why AREN'T they coming forward ?

Far away from harm?

Physical distance is largely irrelevant when discussing "whistle blowing".

MM

 

[Miragememories]

You can not even get close to covering you own tracks. You posted a reference to 500 mph from ATC, and a remark, twice the limit. Unknown to you, cause it is past your level of expertise, twice the limit is 500 KIAS, which is equal to 570 mph. Simple math seems to escape you as does logic, knowledge and comprehension. Sorry you do not want to discuss why KIAS and mph. You posted it, you missed it, and you still have missed it.

Your understanding of CODECs at best is a a lay person level. I doubt you can develop a program to develop your own CODEC. If you were able to understand and develop CODECs you would not be a truther. Sorry, but if you are a truther, higher level math and physics are beyond your grasp. As demonstrated when you can not even keep up with your own post on simple mph vs KIAS conversions and use by ATC, vs a news error in defining units.

If you do not understand the MPH vs KIAS discussion you posted, I do not understand your problem. You posted it, why are you so stubborn to learn what you posted. Your post debunked you. It appears you are the one who has a shallow knowledge on the airspeed. Proof is the fact you posted the very evidence to prove you reference airspeed of 503 to be improperly supported. Once again, you posted the proof and now you are too lazy to acknowledge the truth, or just too challenged to figure it out.

Sigh.

I quoted. Go back and read in context.

I haven't claimed any understanding which I do not possess.

I firmly stated 503 mph carefully calculated is significantly less that a speculative 570 mph dropped into a simulation.

I don't claim the abilty to code codecs but I do use them extensively. You want to challenge me in the use of Avid codecs with Unity SAN operations just bring it on!

MM

 

[LashL]

Where are you getting the 30 story figure from?

Both towers are suspension buildings as were the WTC towers.

I wouldn't have known this only I photographed them for an architect around 1972 and he was making such a point about their unique engineering.

MM

Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong buildings. I don't know of two 22 storey towers in close proximity in Toronto. I was thinking that you were talking about the Yonge Eglinton Centre buildings. The one at 2300 Yonge (building 1) is 30 storeys tall; the one at 20 Eglinton West (building 2) is 22 storeys tall.

As an aside, the photos you mentioned would be interesting to see.

 

[twinstead]

They aren't cowards. Go study your history. Many people have remained silent when they knew lies were being presented as fact.

NIST engineers have families, friends, careers, all to be lost if they start whistle blowing.

How much guts do you display with your cheap remarks twinstead?

I'm not kissing up to anyone.

I'm simply speaking my mind and unlike yourself, I don't worry about upsetting the rest of the JREF family.

MM

Like I said. BS. History is full of people who risk their careers and families for what they think is right. It is you who don't know history if you suggest otherwise.

WHERE ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE?

 

[Miragememories]

Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong buildings. I don't know of two 22 storey towers in close proximity in Toronto. I was thinking that you were talking about the Yonge Eglinton Centre buildings. The one at 2300 Yonge (building 1) is 30 storeys tall; the one at 20 Eglinton West (building 2) is 22 storeys tall.

As an aside, the photos you mentioned would be interesting to see.

The buildings in question are 2190 and 2180 Yonge joined by a 3rd floor walkway.

MM

 

[beachnut]

Regarding members of 9/11 Truth, do you really enjoy attacking and insulting fellow Americans and world citizens who are merely giving what they feel is thoughtful expression to their beliefs?

beachnut the followers of 9/11 truth are not a group of mean spirited paranoid neanderthals. They are ordinary human beings who aren't afraid to think outside of the box.

Courage doesn't just exist on the battlefield.

MM

I do not respect anyone in the 9/11 truth movement because they are liars. When they make up, or repeat the truth movement ideas, they are telling lies. Zero respect goes to those who tell lies and make up stuff about 9/11. I think they are the most doltish group of people when it comes to 9/11 issues. I have found the main purpose of the 9/11 truth movement is to sell lies in the form of books, and video. We live in a free country and it is legal to sell lies and make up stuff and sell it as the truth. If you do not want to be called on of the nuts and dolts for 9/11 truth, then use your head and stop thinking in the box of 9/11 lies.

Outside the box. Wow, the truth movement is the most inside the box group I have seen. I am probably more like what the truthers want to be, than any truther is. I do not believe anyone. I do not trust anyone unless the earn it. I do not like being told what to think or do. I hate rules made up with no good reason. I hate liars who lie to others to make profit. The truth movement is made up of non thinking followers who think they are thinking outside the box. They think they have open minds, they think they have the correct ideas on 9/11 but avoid looking at the facts. Why is the truth movement so much like the things they say they are against?

I find the entire truth movement to be people buying and selling lies. That makes some of them not too smart, and the others smart capitalist. The smart ones are selling the very lies the not too smart ones want. Throw in some idealistic dummies who think they are saving the world and some pure idiots who have gone nuts over some political bias that blinds their ability to think logically. The list of truther traits must have many more entries, but this is a good start.

 

[twinstead]

Oh, and MM, try not to keep implying that anybody who is adamant that they accept the official explanation of 911 aren't 'speaking their mind'.

There is a world of experts who disagree with you. According to you they are all simply worried about their jobs.

Of course you must be 100% right.

 

[Newtons Bit]

If an engineer comes forward with something that is unethical, he will not lose his career. His boss may fire him, but he'd have no problem getting a job elsewhere.

 

[LashL]

The buildings in question are 2190 and 2180 Yonge joined by a 3rd floor walkway.

MM

????

2180 Yonge is the Canadian Tire building, built in 1972, 18 storeys tall. 2190 Yonge is a 6 storey building built in 1987.

Those are two of the three Canada Square buildings; the third is 2200 Yonge, which is 17 storeys tall, and which was built in 1962-3.

 

[Miragememories]

Like I said. BS. History is full of people who risk their careers and families for what they think is right. It is you who don't know history if you suggest otherwise.

WHERE ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE?

Hmm..

Hitler's Germany!

The Gulf of Tonkin incident (prelude to the Vietnam War)

Watergate

Wall Street Scandals

Weapons of Mass Distruction in Iraq

Just a few. Lots of people knew. No one spoke up until forced to!

You have been watching too many Hollywood movies.

Yes there have been brave heroic people throughout history and they usually have made a supreme sacrifice for being so.

Hence the expression; "I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero!"

MM

 

[Miragememories]

????

2180 Yonge is the Canadian Tire building, built in 1972, 18 storeys tall. 2190 Yonge is a 6 storey building built in 1987.

Those are two of the three Canada Square buildings; the third is 2200 Yonge, which is 17 storeys tall, and which was built in 1962-3.

Sorry C. You are mostly wrong! Canadian Tire is the largest tenant of 2180 but not the sole tenant. I am quite sure the building is 22 stories but that's not something I've given any thought to recently.

2190 is certainly not a 6-story building and I know for a fact that it has been there as long as 2180.

Stating facts that aren't facts makes me wonder about other statements you've made with such certainty?

You may be correct about 2200 Yonge, it's commercial on the ground and sub basement and largely apartments above.

MM

 

[Belz...]

Far away from harm?

Physical distance is largely irrelevant when discussing "whistle blowing".

HAHAHA!

Only a truther could possibly think that way. An assassin in every neighborhood in the world, I guess.

Incidently, your post is still mere rhetoric. You just throw away claims and expect some of them to stick.


Gosh, Mirage. You'd swear you're ignoring everything I said in my previous posts. What's the problem ? It seems to me like you're ignoring all the ones with arguments.

 

[beachnut]

Sigh.

I quoted. Go back and read in context.

I haven't claimed any understanding which I do not possess.

I firmly stated 503 mph carefully calculated is significantly less that a speculative 570 mph dropped into a simulation.

I don't claim the abilty to code codecs but I do use them extensively. You want to challenge me in the use of Avid codecs with Unity SAN operations just bring it on!

MM

You posted a reference to 500 mph from a source. The source was talking about ATC said twice the legal limit. The legal limit is 250 KIAS, not mph. Twice the limit is 500 KIAS, that is 570 mph. The paper you used the 503 falsely assumed the ATC was 500 mph as the news source quoted. The news source was wrong since ATC used KIAS. As you know a nautical mile is 6076 feet. A knot, in KIAS, knot indicated airspeed is based on a nautical mile.

I was trying to help you understand why the speed is closer to 590 mph than it is to 503, and why. Plus I did a video check months ago, came up with about 590 mph from video frames. Looking at your post quote of 503 was easy to see the error in the paper you took it out of, and why they favored the lower value since they thought they were backed up by ATC information. I have seen others calculate the speed from video and they were all close to 570 - 590.

If you take the damage done to the WTC, those damage models based on energy confirm the higher speed. You have been reading too much into running the models NIST ran at different speeds. The NIST guys had no agenda to prove anything right or wrong, you can see their goals, and the truth movement is reading too much into the models.

You were quibbling over the speeds, I guess you do not want any input on the speeds and why they may be low. I was trying to give you expert analysis of why the paper you quoted with 503 mph could be in error. If you do not want someone who understands ATC jargon, speed limits below 10,000, and other flying topics, then do not post stuff that is not even in range with supporting evidence.

 

[LashL]

Sorry C. You are mostly wrong! Canadian Tire is the largest tenant of 2180 but not the sole tenant. I am quite sure the building is 22 stories but that's not something I've given any thought to recently.

2190 is certainly not a 6-story building and I know for a fact that it has been there as long as 2180.

Stating facts that aren't facts makes me wonder about other statements you've made with such certainty?

You may be correct about 2200 Yonge, it's commercial on the ground and sub basement and largely apartments above.

MM

I call it the "Canadian Tire building" because that is how it is colloquially known because of the big Canadian Tire logo on the top. Like First Canadian Place is known colloquially as the "Bank of Montreal building," like the tower at 40 King is known as the "Scotia Bank building" and like Commerce Court West is known as the "CIBC building".

I am not at all implying that Canadian Tire is its only tenant. Far from it.

However, Emporis is a very good source for building info, and it happens to coincide perfectly with the information provided by the property management company responsible for leasing out the available space in the Canada Square buildings.

I dare say that they know far more about the details of the buildings they manage than you do. And they say that the information I posted above is correct, and that your unsupported assertions to the contrary are incorrect.

http://www.northamrealty.com/assetPortfolio/2180yonge.shtml

http://www.northamrealty.com/assetPortfolio/2190yonge.shtml

http://www.northamrealty.com/assetPortfolio/2200yonge.shtml

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=canadiantirebuilding-toronto-canada

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/sh/?id=100993&txt=2200+yonge&button=Search

It is noted on Emporis that all completed high-rise buildings in Toronto with 12 or more floors are listed in this database.

2190 Yonge is not listed. That would appear to be because it is only 6 stories tall.

So, tell me, how did you manage to be on the 22nd floor of a building that is only 18 storeys tall?

Stating facts that aren't facts makes me wonder about other statements you've made with such certainty?

Oh, the irony.

 

[Gravy]

Regarding members of 9/11 Truth, do you really enjoy attacking and insulting fellow Americans and world citizens who are merely giving what they feel is thoughtful expression to their beliefs?

What a laugh. This guy doesn't know the difference between lies and honesty, between baseless accusations and evidence, between research and uninformed opinion, or between making the same mistakes over and over without learning, and correcting those mistakes.

Poor MM! Can't a person just make unfounded accusations of mass murder without being taken to task?

You have to be blind if you don't realize that you are a member of a group with a similar representation.

Maybe when MM gets some time he'll show us what we got wrong, and admit his continual string of errors.

beachnut the followers of 9/11 truth are not a group of mean spirited paranoid neanderthals. They are ordinary human beings who aren't afraid to think outside of the box.

No, they're just nasty, incompetent ignoramuses.

It's easy to preen in front of the mirror rejoicing at being a NASA engineer, a lawyer, a doctor, or a NYC our guide, but that doesn't make you superior to those who occupy less prestigious occupations.

News flash: tour guide is not a prestigious occupation, and relying on ad hominems instead of facts is foolish. Not a single debunker here has pulled rank without backing their statements with facts.

He and his entire club of liars can't argue the facts, so they've decided to advance their cause by whining. That's childish behavior.

...and the twoof goes marching on. OJ ws framed!

Meanwhile....

 

[twinstead]

Hmm..

Hitler's Germany!

The Gulf of Tonkin incident (prelude to the Vietnam War)

Watergate

Wall Street Scandals

Weapons of Mass Distruction in Iraq

Just a few. Lots of people knew. No one spoke up until forced to!

You have been watching too many Hollywood movies.

Yes there have been brave heroic people throughout history and they usually have made a supreme sacrifice for being so.

Hence the expression; "I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero!"

MM

Do you honestly think that if the internet had existed during Hitler's Germany that still nobody would have 'spoken up'? Do you think that perhaps other nations' citizens were indeed speaking up about Hitler's Germany during that period?

You can spin away however you want to explain why nobody has come forward to expose what you think is a MOST obvious hoax. The only people 'afraid' to come forward in the Nazi period were people in Germany. Why is it that so many experts from around the world are so afraid of the evil Red White and Blue Empire?

And, I don't recall seeing your response to the fact that world wide, experts are changing their building codes because of the study of 911.

You are trying to force feed me crap. You are trying to rationalize the complete and thundering absence of qualified dissent concerning 911. You arrogantly suggest that I and those who think like me are somehow brainwashed because we DARE not think like you.

Fine. Let's see how far your fantasy goes...

 

[Corsair 115]

I'm well aware that "cruising" is not the same as "maximum" and your assumption that I thought differently was mistaken.

Your own posts contradict this assertion, since you constantly repeated the maximum cruising speed number as if it was the maximum speed possible by the aircraft. I suggest you reread your posts.

I'm also well aware that the cruising speed of a car is totally irrelevant when discussing the maximum cruising speed of a Boeing 767-200 at 35,000 feet of altitude.

Your memory seems to be in error, so please let me refresh you. That was an analogy offered by another poster attempting to demonstrate the difference between recommended maximum speed and the maximum physical speed possible by a vehicle. I understood the analogy; I'm not quite sure why it seems you did not grasp it. It would seem you have confused it with something else.

I've largely ignored what you've had to say because in comparison with what R. Mackey was posting, your comments were juvenile and thoughtless.

I challenge you to find a single post of mine to you that has taken on a juvenile or disrepectful tone. You won't find one, because I have gone out of my way to be as civil as possible towards you so that you cannot use that sort of assertion.

That you are doing so, and doing so without citing any supporting evidence or examples (and, I note, still not addressing the outstanding issues), calls into question your motives and honesty in terms of forthrightly discussing the issues raised in this thread.

 

[Architect]

Those codecs referred to an area of my expertise that were not expected to be your area of expertise. Architect referred me to a topic that I was unfamiliar with and I just meant to give him a taste of his own medicine.

I fear you miss the point:the structural issues, and in particular the recognition in the Eurocode of the dangers posed by progressive collapse, are germaine to the discussion at hand. Therefore it is reasonable that we consider them. Digital codecs are not, as far as I am aware.

 

[stateofgrace]

Hmm..

Hitler's Germany!

The Gulf of Tonkin incident (prelude to the Vietnam War)

Watergate

Wall Street Scandals

Weapons of Mass Distruction in Iraq

Just a few. Lots of people knew. No one spoke up until forced to!

You have been watching too many Hollywood movies.

Yes there have been brave heroic people throughout history and they usually have made a supreme sacrifice for being so.

Hence the expression; "I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero!"

MM

Yes MM there have been many scandals and secrets have been exposed. They are now a matter of record. See secrets do not remain secret for long, when these secrets are actually factual based. There is always a general desire to exposes wrong doing and there is never a need or want to suppress it.

This is where you fail, you appear to truly believe that anybody who does not agree with you simply does so because they are afraid to think outside the box or afraid to face the truth. In this you are incorrect, I can only speak for myself, I am neither afraid of the truth nor have I any desire to see it suppressed. Equally so if there was anything at all that was promoted as the truth that warranted further investigation it is almost certain these secrets would be exposed. People would talk, there would be whistle blows because as you have said yourself, throughout history many people have made sacrifices and have risked everything to exposes wrong doing. Yet, nobody has stepped forward about 911, a conspiracy of mass murder that took place over five years ago. Why are people being quiet MM, where is this bravery you like to promote? The same bravery you pretend to have and of course anybody who disagrees with does not process.

Why MM, after five years does this massive conspiracy that involves thousands of people, including those who investigated it, still remain secret?

You know why, because it does not exist, other than in your mind. It is your chance to take the moral high ground and pretend that you and your fellow truthers are actually being brave, speaking out. You want to be recognised and be given the accolade that genuinely brave people get. This will never happen because you will never expose what is not there. To compensate for this you get all upset and call people blind, incapable of being able to think for themselves, a frightened group that seeks to reinforce their own beliefs with group mentality.

It must be so frustrating for you, unable and unwilling to accept that your vast conspiracy is simply in your mind and is not based in reality. For reality is that was there anything behind these theories, they would have been exposed years ago and by far braver people than you and your movement will ever be.