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So what's this War about anyway?

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But I deny the global-threat "Witch hunt"

One of the central characteristics of an actual witch hunt is that the object being hunted (the witch) doesn't even exist. Are you claiming that Islamic terrorists don't exist? Because unless you are, then you're using the wrong term.

as if the "old laws" weren't effective at all if they were used effectively before 9/11.

They weren't. I've been over this before already, but you didn't seem to learn. American criminal law allows for something called "discovery". In terrorst cases, such as the trial for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, this discovery process leads to a compromise of intelligence. This isn't hypothetical: it's exactly what DID happen, and there is no way to avoid it within the normal criminal law process of the United States.
 
Yeah. Because torching a building in the middle of the night is really just as difficult as getting a 19-man crew to hijack 4 large commercial airliners and plowing them into buildings, or better yet, faking such hijackings.

Sorry, Orwell, but the difference hinges on a LOT more than whether or not the leader in question would be willing to do something like this.


So? You mean a higher security in Airports plus strong cockpit doors wouldn't eliminate this kind of attacks without Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, Military Commission Act and every other improvement the US did after 9/11 - plus preemtive wars? Sounds more Orwellian on the Administrations side, doesn't it?

Germany didn't notice when they lost the power over the Nazionalsozialisten - and they also didn't care because blind trust. And they believed in a Threat from outside and therefore every law that was passed.

Nothing is impossible if they can fool you. And THEY DID fool everyone.
 

I really have to spell it out for you?

Fine. Let me make this as clear as possible. The Bush administration is not capable of doing something like 9/11 EVEN IF THEY WANT TO. I'm paraphrasing here, but your point about how we shouldn't assume that our government wouldn't do something like that is irrelevant, since they can't do something like that.

You mean a higher security in Airports plus strong cockpit doors wouldn't eliminate this kind of attacks without Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, Military Commission Act and every other improvement the US did after 9/11

The next terrorist attack isn't likely to be a hijacking, so no, higher security at airports WON'T cut it.

Oh, and by the way: in terms of my own freedoms, the ONLY effect I've noticed is exactly the kind of hightened security at airports that you think is sufficient.

- plus preemtive wars?

The Iraq war was, in no small part, an issue of long-term threats. The middle east is deeply screwed up, we didn't make it that way, but we pay a price for its pathologies anyways. The Iraq war was part of an attempt to change that fundamental dynamic. And if it succeeds, it damned well WILL have been worth it. I can understand scepticism about whether or not it will succeed, as well as criticism about mistakes made in the process, but to think that it is necessarily unjustified even if it does succeed is simply nonsense.

Nothing is impossible if they can fool you. And THEY DID fool everyone.

The Nazis marked their rise to power not just with deception, but also with overt violence against their political opponents (and no, terrorists are not political opponents). When republicans start killing democratic politicians, I'll get worried. Until then, stop trying to project your own past failures onto us. We're not the ones who need to outlaw the Nazi party to keep it from getting a foothold.
 
Ziggy,

Bob Wodward wrote in page 213 of Plan of Attack that Bush didn't want to hear about Saddam's exile.

Chirac did.

Go ahead, Zigguny:

"Momaaa!
Iraqis are mean now!"


Bunch of Fascist whiners who cannot even take care of their own country's welfare and poverty...

I would not say the Bush and Co. are full blown fascisti, they are not killing thier opponents is the streets.

There are some vauge similarities in the use of the combination of corporate money, duping the military patriots and exploitation of the populist cause. there is certainly the abuse of civil power but not at the level of the fascisiti, and the level of media control is rather amazing but again we don't quite have the killing of journalists.

I would agree to power hungry money grubbers, but not fascisti. Most politicians are power hungry money grubbers, Dems included.

I agree with the sentiment, I just would not make the blatant comparison. They will just be scoundrels and drape themselves in the flag.
 
I really have to spell it out for you?

Fine. Let me make this as clear as possible. The Bush administration is not capable of doing something like 9/11 EVEN IF THEY WANT TO. I'm paraphrasing here, but your point about how we shouldn't assume that our government wouldn't do something like that is irrelevant, since they can't do something like that.


I know that the Bush Administration is too dumb to do that. What about the CIA who's doing this with enough experience throughout the last decades on foreign soil? They would be able to stage an attack - not in scale of 9/11, but another kind of attack.

BTW: Who did the "Anthrax" phobia? Terrorists? Are you sure?

The next terrorist attack isn't likely to be a hijacking, so no, higher security at airports WON'T cut it.

Oh, and by the way: in terms of my own freedoms, the ONLY effect I've noticed is exactly the kind of hightened security at airports that you think is sufficient.


So they will swim to America to attack you? I'm not kidding - if you secure transportation, the border and the sea, why all the hype?

The Iraq war was, in no small part, an issue of long-term threats. The middle east is deeply screwed up, we didn't make it that way, but we pay a price for its pathologies anyways. The Iraq war was part of an attempt to change that fundamental dynamic. And if it succeeds, it damned well WILL have been worth it. I can understand scepticism about whether or not it will succeed, as well as criticism about mistakes made in the process, but to think that it is necessarily unjustified even if it does succeed is simply nonsense.


Oh yeah? What about Pakistans and Koreas real Nuclear weapons? Iraq was and would have been a "toothless Tiger" without a war. So there was time enough to intervene if they had something that poses a real threat.

The Nazis marked their rise to power not just with deception, but also with overt violence against their political opponents (and no, terrorists are not political opponents). When republicans start killing democratic politicians, I'll get worried. Until then, stop trying to project your own past failures onto us. We're not the ones who need to outlaw the Nazi party to keep it from getting a foothold.


So you only would define theft as real theft if someone holds a pistol on your head and demands your money, not if someone gets your money using some sneakily methods? Basically it has the same result, doesn't it?

And I'm not saying that anyone else is a Nazi. I ask:
Would you be able to see the threat or lies?

And we all failed on the latter one, didn't we? :confused:
 
I know that the Bush Administration is too dumb to do that. What about the CIA who's doing this with enough experience throughout the last decades on foreign soil?

You've GOT to be kidding me. We wouldn't be in the mess we're in if the CIA were that capable.

They would be able to stage an attack - not in scale of 9/11, but another kind of attack.

"An" attack doesn't cut it. The first world trade center bombing, for example, pretty much had no effect on our politics.

BTW: Who did the "Anthrax" phobia? Terrorists? Are you sure?

I have no idea. But I also know that that attack hasn't had much effect at all outside of postal security - not exactly the path to power, if you ask me.

So they will swim to America to attack you? I'm not kidding - if you secure transportation, the border and the sea, why all the hype?

It's not POSSIBLE to secure all that. Seriously - how the hell do you tell the difference between a jihadi infiltrating the US and a tourist? Well, you can't really.

Oh yeah? What about Pakistans and Koreas real Nuclear weapons?

Pakistan caught the whole world by surprise, and that's quite unfortunate. It also demonstrates the futility of relying on intelligence to prevent proliferation. Now that they have nuclear weapons, though, what exactly would you propose to do about it? I don't think you have an answer to that question. I think you're just throwing mud at the wall hoping something sticks.

As far as North Korea, well, that disaster was caused by taking the "diplomatic" approach under Clinton (thank you SO much, Jimmy Carter). Again, what would you have us do now? But the North Koreans aren't jihadis. They might SELL weapons to jihadis (which is why we've got the Proliferation Security Initiative, a multilateral cooperation largely accomplished by John Bolton), but they aren't jihadis themselves. They primarily want nukes so they can blackmail us to prop them up. But that same need for support also gives us some leverage over them, leverage which we don't have against any of the oil-rich countries of the middle east.

Iraq was and would have been a "toothless Tiger" without a war.

And on paper, Al Qaeda and the Taliban were even weaker. And yet they struck us, hard, and did half a trillion dollars worth of economic damage.

So there was time enough to intervene if they had something that poses a real threat.

And how, pray tell, would we have ever known? We couldn't depend on knowing, which is precisely the problem. Just like we didn't know Pakistan was on the verge of getting nuclear weapons until they tested one. Here's a little fact for you: inspections have NEVER uncovered a single clandestine nuclear weapons program. Ever. And it's not because there haven't been any. Did Saddam have one when we invaded? Not an active one, that's true. But would we ever know when he did? No, we couldn't count on that at all.

So you only would define theft as real theft if someone holds a pistol on your head and demands your money, not if someone gets your money using some sneakily methods? Basically it has the same result, doesn't it?

No. Pay attention: I'm saying that the Nazis did MORE than just theft. They killed people. Right from the start. And that violence was an INTEGRAL part of their rise to power.

And I'm not saying that anyone else is a Nazi. I ask:
Would you be able to see the threat or lies?

Hell yes. Like I said: they were killing people. That's not exactly a difficult threat to see. In fact, it was effective precisely because it was visible, and so intimidated people.
 
Most people who disagreed with Hitler left Germany during the 1930's. So tell me, what are you still doing in the US?


That was another one of your distractions. Is there any Issue at all that would engage you to argue along a Topic instead against it?

Something like: While I think you have a valid point concerning ... But I disagree with your Idea that ... ?" :confused:
 
That was another one of your distractions. Is there any Issue at all that would engage you to argue along a Topic instead against it?

Something like: While I think you have a valid point concerning ... But I disagree with your Idea that ... ?" :confused:

I wasn't talking to you.
 
You know, I do have to admire your work ethic, though. It's not easy being as consistently wrong as you are.

And take it from Zigg, he knows what it's like to be consistently wrong.
 
And take it from Zigg, he knows what it's like to be consistently wrong.

Ion has made antisemitic jokes about me in the past. He is a coward, an idiot, and a worm. I know you and me disagree over quite a bit, but do you really want to step in the middle of this?
 
Has he? I wasn't aware.

Yes, he has. I didn't expect you to be aware, because it's not your responsibility to keep track of my flame wars, I just thought I'd give you a heads up.
 
You've GOT to be kidding me. We wouldn't be in the mess we're in if the CIA were that capable.

"An" attack doesn't cut it. The first world trade center bombing, for example, pretty much had no effect on our politics.

I have no idea. But I also know that that attack hasn't had much effect at all outside of postal security - not exactly the path to power, if you ask me.

It's not POSSIBLE to secure all that. Seriously - how the hell do you tell the difference between a jihadi infiltrating the US and a tourist? Well, you can't really.

Pakistan caught the whole world by surprise, and that's quite unfortunate. It also demonstrates the futility of relying on intelligence to prevent proliferation. Now that they have nuclear weapons, though, what exactly would you propose to do about it? I don't think you have an answer to that question. I think you're just throwing mud at the wall hoping something sticks.

As far as North Korea, well, that disaster was caused by taking the "diplomatic" approach under Clinton (thank you SO much, Jimmy Carter). Again, what would you have us do now? But the North Koreans aren't jihadis. They might SELL weapons to jihadis (which is why we've got the Proliferation Security Initiative, a multilateral cooperation largely accomplished by John Bolton), but they aren't jihadis themselves. They primarily want nukes so they can blackmail us to prop them up. But that same need for support also gives us some leverage over them, leverage which we don't have against any of the oil-rich countries of the middle east.

And on paper, Al Qaeda and the Taliban were even weaker. And yet they struck us, hard, and did half a trillion dollars worth of economic damage.

And how, pray tell, would we have ever known? We couldn't depend on knowing, which is precisely the problem. Just like we didn't know Pakistan was on the verge of getting nuclear weapons until they tested one. Here's a little fact for you: inspections have NEVER uncovered a single clandestine nuclear weapons program. Ever. And it's not because there haven't been any. Did Saddam have one when we invaded? Not an active one, that's true. But would we ever know when he did? No, we couldn't count on that at all.

No. Pay attention: I'm saying that the Nazis did MORE than just theft. They killed people. Right from the start. And that violence was an INTEGRAL part of their rise to power.

Hell yes. Like I said: they were killing people. That's not exactly a difficult threat to see. In fact, it was effective precisely because it was visible, and so intimidated people.


CIA: All they have to do is to explode a dirty bomb in a big city and Bush would declare it as national emergency. And at this point "We the People" hasn't any meaning anymore. By the way: Do you think it does anyway in overall politics?

Pakistan/China/North Korea etc.: History doesn't matter. My point is they are a bigger threat. But I tell you something: They have nuclear weapons and the US are too cowardly to intervene. Iraq hadn't, so why bother to invade?

Trillion: Where does this number come from? Are you sure they did such financial damage? Iraq is also this expensive. Now if you compare those two attacks - are you sure that's true? Of course not, because the Military Industry booms and some Politicians are getting very rich. So who cares anyway?

How to know: Oh, will I ever know if you will murder someone in the future? We should arrest you because you could probably be a threat. So this is your understanding of law and order, isn't it?

Nazis: It's not that important how they did it. Also it doesn't matter if you get rid of Nuclear Weapons in other countries by using diplomacy or military from the point of view that it has the same result. My point is that nobody has to be murdered before this could be a possible threat, do you really don't know what I mean? :confused:
 
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How to know: Oh, will I ever know if you will murder someone in the future? We should arrest you because you could probably be a threat. So this is your understanding of law and order, isn't it?

Nazis: [snip] My point is that nobody has to be murdered before this could be a possible threat, do you really don't know what I mean? :confused:


I can't believe you actually posted both contradictory ideas at the same time like this.

:boggled:
 


How to know: Oh, will I ever know if you will murder someone in the future? We should arrest you because you could probably be a threat. So this is your understanding of law and order, isn't it?

:



Is this in reference to Saddam, he did have a record of invading his neighbors Iran and Kuwait.
 
Ion has made antisemitic jokes about me in the past. He is a coward, an idiot, and a worm. I know you and me disagree over quite a bit, but do you really want to step in the middle of this?
Zuggy,

where does that lead you since 2003 when you supported the war and I didn't?

It leads you to the toilet.

Obviously your support to the war since 2003 and you not fighting in Iraq, that's:

toilet.
 
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