9/11 Physics from Non-Experts

you are essentially correct. The Design load, in the case you use, is 100 lb. Design load gives a positive margin.
Margin is described as (Allowable/actual)-SF. THis value should always be >0.0.
In other words (yours, to be precise), at design load, you are still that safety factor away from boo-boo.

what about span limited by deflection? In simple spans the allowable deflection in a simple floor truss is usually limited to 1/360 of span or 1 inch in thirty feet. so each pair of 60 foot floor trusses should have been able to accept a live load of ten tons before deflecting beyond 2 inches.
 
what about span limited by deflection? In simple spans the allowable deflection in a simple floor truss is usually limited to 1/360 of span or 1 inch in thirty feet. so each pair of 60 foot floor trusses should have been able to accept a live load of ten tons before deflecting beyond 2 inches.
Huh?
We were talking generalities--was not specific, except as it pertained to Myriad's question.
And it doesn't matter what you're talking--load or deflection. In the design region, it da$n well better be linear!
And deflection is definitely a function of load.
I do analysis, not design. M'kay?:)
 
You have to know the moment of inertia, I, to calculate that deflection. You can't just wave your hand and have it appear...
 
You have to know the moment of inertia, I, to calculate that deflection. You can't just wave your hand and have it appear...

I'm stumped. That stuff came from left field. I have no idea where he/she's headed with it. The 2 inch deflection is a specification to which you design your floor, based on whatever load you anticipate being applied--the design load, or Myriad's VIN load.
You would then make sure that the margin was positive, as I showed above. If not, back to the drawing board.
 
Okay, let me see if I can understand this argument. I'm very confused, and I hate being confused, even more than I hate soundling like an idiot, so I'm going to risk sounding like an idiot in order to try to sort this out.

There's some Very Important Number, let's call it for the moment the "VIN Load," which represents the load a building floor is rated for, according some Very Important Piece Of Paper which is created somewhere in the course of erecting a big honking building.

Mr. Urich is claiming that the VIN Load represents the most the building can withstand without Bad Things Happening. So that, if the VIN Load is 100 lbs, then the building can support 100 lbs. and if you put 101 lbs there, it's likely to have a boo-boo. Therefore it's forbidden to put more than 25 lbs. in the building, in order to leave a fourfold safety factor.

(BTW, I'm not so confused that I don't understand that I should be saying pounds per square foot, not just pounds; I'm using plain pounds to simplify the phrasing of the examples.)

Mr. Mackey is claiming that the VIN Load represents the load that the building is designed and expected to carry in normal expected use (or perhaps, at the high end of an estimated range of loads for various expected uses). Therefore, if the VIN Load is 100 lbs, you can put 100 lbs there, and no boo-boo will happen because if the Important Piece Of Paper says 100 lbs, the building must be constructed to actually support considerably more than that (though that safety factor is not necessarily x4).

Is this an accurate summary?

I'm one of the duellists, and I don't work on structures, so everyone, please feel free to go back and check my work.

Here's how I understand it:

There is some conservatism built into what you've called the VIN Load, which I would call the "design load." The conservatism arises because building code has some standard values for things like flooring and estimated use by occupants, and these values are naturally rounded up. You can't set up a test office and measure that it weighs 91 lb / ft2, and then use that figure in your calculations -- you must use the agreed-upon value of 100 lb / ft2. That sort of thing.

However, there is no way the design load is conservative by a factor of 4.

The structure is built so that its "rated capacity" is equal to or greater than the design load. The rating means that, according to code, the structure is certified to carry that load, not just that calculations show it's theoretically possible. In order to get this certification, you have to include additional "safety factors." In the case of the WTC, this is a complex function because you're adding many loads together, each has its own safety margin requirement, and there are other aggregating factors such as "live load reduction" that are designed to reduce the requirements where multiple safety factors pile up and give you an excessively conservative structure.

So, in other words, ultimate strength of the structure > rated capacity = design load > actual load.

Approximately speaking, ultimate strength = (safety factor) * rated capacity = (safety factor) * design load = (safety factor) * (actual load + weight padding).

The design considerations for the WTC are handled in NIST NCSTAR1-1, which describes the design load and safety factor calculations. However, it is important to note that NIST actually calculates the true load of the structure in a completely different fashion, as seen in Chapter 4 of NIST NCSTAR1-2A. The structure "as built" does not always match the plan, which is why NIST found that some (very few) structural members of the WTC had demand-to-capacity ratios of greater than 1, i.e. they were eating up some of the safety factor described above in day to day usage. It happens.

You can't get too carried away with DCR, though, because of overlapping requirements. For example, one of the primary considerations for the Tower design was wind load. Some structural elements were sized for the wind, and thus without wind, just standing upright, these structural elements had quite a bit more capacity than needed. Thus the DCR for other elements is sometimes very low, like 0.3. It depends on what elements you're talking about.

My primary argument against Gregory Urich, however, is that if we follow his numbers and accept his assumptions (which I don't), the results he gets badly fail the "sniff test." He would have us believe the WTC was so over-conservative that I question if it could have handled any occupants at all. I don't think he'd even be able to finish the structure within his computed weight limit, let alone furnish and actually use it.

Any comments and substitutions of proper terms of art from structural engineers, architects, and the like are welcome.
 
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I'm one of the duellists, and I don't work on structures, so everyone, please feel free to go back and check my work.

Here's how I understand it:

There is some conservatism built into what you've called the VIN Load, which I would call the "design load." The conservatism arises because building code has some standard values for things like flooring and estimated use by occupants, and these values are naturally rounded up. You can't set up a test office and measure that it weighs 91 lb / ft2, and then use that figure in your calculations -- you must use the agreed-upon value of 100 lb / ft2. That sort of thing.

However, there is no way the design load is conservative by a factor of 4.

The structure is built so that its "rated capacity" is equal to or greater than the design load. The rating means that, according to code, the structure is certified to carry that load, not just that calculations show it's theoretically possible. In order to get this certification, you have to include additional "safety factors." In the case of the WTC, this is a complex function because you're adding many loads together, each has its own safety margin requirement, and there are other aggregating factors such as "live load reduction" that are designed to reduce the requirements where multiple safety factors pile up and give you an excessively conservative structure.

So, in other words, ultimate strength of the structure > rated capacity = design load > actual load.

Approximately speaking, ultimate strength = (safety factor) * rated capacity = (safety factor) * design load = (safety factor) * (actual load + weight padding).

The design considerations for the WTC are handled in NIST NCSTAR1-1, which describes the design load and safety factor calculations. However, it is important to note that NIST actually calculates the true load of the structure in a completely different fashion, as seen in Chapter 4 of NIST NCSTAR1-2A. The structure "as built" does not always match the plan, which is why NIST found that some (very few) structural members of the WTC had demand-to-capacity ratios of greater than 1, i.e. they were eating up some of the safety factor described above in day to day usage. It happens.

You can't get too carried away with DCR, though, because of overlapping requirements. For example, one of the primary considerations for the Tower design was wind load. Some structural elements were sized for the wind, and thus without wind, just standing upright, these structural elements had quite a bit more capacity than needed. Thus the DCR for other elements is sometimes very low, like 0.3. It depends on what elements you're talking about.

My primary argument against Gregory Urich, however, is that if we follow his numbers and accept his assumptions (which I don't), the results he gets badly fail the "sniff test." He would have us believe the WTC was so over-conservative that I question if it could have handled any occupants at all. I don't think he'd even be able to finish the structure within his computed weight limit, let alone furnish and actually use it.

Any comments and substitutions of proper terms of art from structural engineers, architects, and the like are welcome.

I wouldn't be suprised to see that magic number of 4. Let me explain though. Individual elements are designed for different live loads. For example, the floor trusses (I say joists) were supposed to be designed to be serviceable at 100 psf live load (today this means a deflection of L/360, not sure if it was the same then), and have an ultimate capacity to support twice that. This is for a large variety of reasons, but you wouldn't want to see an individual joist fail and possibly cause a progressive collapse just because some numbnut put something on it that it wasn't rated for. As you spread away from localized elements, like the floor joist to girders, the live load that those members are designed for becomes smaller. This is because of the statistical unlikelyhood that the entire tributary area of that girder would be loaded to full capacity. When you go all the way out to the column, the design live load is 50psf, though this depends on how large the tributary area is.


Ultimate strength is also a term used elsewhere in structural engineering. The ultimate strength of a member is the absolute limit of what that member can handle in terms of load and no more. One pound more would cause that member to eventually collapse (steel failure in bending can be very ductile and take a long time to occur).

You'll never see me use the term "safety factor" with modern construction, it's rapidly becoming an outdated term. This is due to the fact that are methods of analysis or becoming much better and accurate. In modern construction, beams and joists are almost never sized to carry a certain load without breaking. They are sized so that they don't deflect more than what the occupants are comfortable with and the architectural cladding can withstand without cracking. Another example, live load deflections are limited to L/360, though A992 steel that makes up wide-flanges can easily deflect to L/120 or L/80 without failing. Structural members supporting masonry are designed to L/550 (or was it L/600? I forget). The actual strength can play a role, but it's usually in ultimate strength considerations. We design buildings such that under a load of 1.0*wind there will be no damage and will be serviceable aftewards. However we also design them such that a load of 1.6*wind will not cause the building to immediately collapse. For earthquake the service level load is 0.7*Earthquake and the ultimate is 1.0*E but that's due to how earthquake loads are derived. Even then, most structural floor elements are sized for their deflection, not strength.

What GregoryUlrich is missing is the mechanical room loads (which can be very high), the wall facade and probably interior partitions. Interior partitions, if full height, are generally designed at 20psf dead load. If they're not full-height, they can be designed under live load as their effect on the building mass for earthquake loading is not significant. A full-height partition is a light-gauge steel framing and architectural cladding that clips to the top (joists or floor deck above) and to the slab below. Other partitions are typically what you'd expect of cubicles.
 
You'll never see me use the term "safety factor" with modern construction, it's rapidly becoming an outdated term. This is due to the fact that are methods of analysis or becoming much better and accurate.

Quite right. The WTC Towers, of course, were designed about 40 years ago, and modern design requirements are figured differently. I found NIST NCSTAR1-1 to be extremely dry reading but still useful in capturing the state-of-practice when the Towers were designed.

What GregoryUlrich is missing is the mechanical room loads (which can be very high), the wall facade and probably interior partitions. Interior partitions, if full height, are generally designed at 20psf dead load. If they're not full-height, they can be designed under live load as their effect on the building mass for earthquake loading is not significant. A full-height partition is a light-gauge steel framing and architectural cladding that clips to the top (joists or floor deck above) and to the slab below. Other partitions are typically what you'd expect of cubicles.

Agreed. This is why I keep pointing people to Chap 4 NIST NCSTAR1-2A, which indeed uses 20 psf as an as-built estimate of actual load for the partitions, along with other things added in. Gregory Urich also apparently considers the core to be nearly empty space, and that's hardly accurate...

Thanks for your comments.
 
Gregory Urich:

When you claim that no one has published a detailed estimate of the mass of a Twin Tower, may I direct you to the very detailed calculations (18 pages worth!) under the heading "Mathematics of the WTC fires, Part Three", on the website www.takeourworldback.com.
 
Um... Dr. Greening, with respect for your scientific insight, I might humbly suggest that you find a better place to host your ideas than "www.takeourworldback.com", as that site contains more flagrant anti-semitic rambling than anything I've ever seen before. Surely you can find a more suitable forum?

ETA: Searching for your article, I find the only incidence of the word "mathematics" on the page you linked appears in the sentence "Hence, the legend of "German gas chambers in Poland" is widely believed for decades, by those who refuse to do the mathematics or study the physics, chemistry or biology."

Surely this is a mere oversight on your part??

ETAII: Let me further add that the very bottom of that page contains a plethora of easily debunked Sept. 11th claims, everything from "melted and partially boiled steel" to "Bojinka." Even if you somehow missed the thousands of words and links of virulent anti-semitic screed, I fail to understand why you'd want the slightest bit of association with them. If your directing us here is a joke, it is in extremely poor taste.
 
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What Mr. Urich is claiming

Okay, let me see if I can understand this argument. I'm very confused, and I hate being confused, even more than I hate soundling like an idiot, so I'm going to risk sounding like an idiot in order to try to sort this out.

There's some Very Important Number, let's call it for the moment the "VIN Load," which represents the load a building floor is rated for, according some Very Important Piece Of Paper which is created somewhere in the course of erecting a big honking building.

Mr. Urich is claiming that the VIN Load represents the most the building can withstand without Bad Things Happening. So that, if the VIN Load is 100 lbs, then the building can support 100 lbs. and if you put 101 lbs there, it's likely to have a boo-boo. Therefore it's forbidden to put more than 25 lbs. in the building, in order to leave a fourfold safety factor.

(BTW, I'm not so confused that I don't understand that I should be saying pounds per square foot, not just pounds; I'm using plain pounds to simplify the phrasing of the examples.)

Mr. Mackey is claiming that the VIN Load represents the load that the building is designed and expected to carry in normal expected use (or perhaps, at the high end of an estimated range of loads for various expected uses). Therefore, if the VIN Load is 100 lbs, you can put 100 lbs there, and no boo-boo will happen because if the Important Piece Of Paper says 100 lbs, the building must be constructed to actually support considerably more than that (though that safety factor is not necessarily x4).

Is this an accurate summary?

What is the actual correct term for the thing I'm calling the "VIN Load"?

What is the important piece of paper that authoritatively establishes it for any given building?

Are you both referring to the same Very Important Number as I've implied above, or is part of the confusion a disagreement about which Very Important Number to use?

I hope you can help me with this. Thanks.

Respectfully,
Myriad

The 100 psf is just the design load so the building will not get a boo-boo.

Here is the code from NISTNCSTAR1-1A pg 11:

"In regard to strength requirements, the member or assembly must be capable of supporting the following (note: no specific reference to a particular type of building material is given in this section of the Code):
  1. Without visible damage (other than hairline cracks) its own weight plus a test load equal to 150 percent of the design live load plus 150 percent of any dead load that will be added at the site, and
  2. Without collapse its own weight plus a test load equal to 50 percent of its own weight 250 percent of the design live load plus 250 percent of any dead load that will be added at the site.
The latter loading is to remain in place for a minimum period of one week..."


This means that the WTC floors ouside the core should be able to support at least 288 psf before there is a risk of boo-boos.

Thus R. Mackey's earlier discussion of safety factors is completely wrong.
 
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This means that the WTC floors ouside the core should be able to support at least 288 psf before there is a risk of boo-boos.

Thus R. Mackey's earlier discussion of safety factors is completely wrong.
I'm afraid you'll have to explain that to me.

If, as you just stated, the floors outside the core should be able to support 288 pounds per square foot (which seems perfectly reasonable to me) before suffering crippling damage, why are you insisting they were only loaded to 27 pounds per square foot in real life?

This isn't a safety factor of four you're now claiming, it's a safety factor of ten!!

Why do you think the above calculation supports you, and not me?
 
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Thanks

Gregory Urich:

When you claim that no one has published a detailed estimate of the mass of a Twin Tower, may I direct you to the very detailed calculations (18 pages worth!) under the heading "Mathematics of the WTC fires, Part Three", on the website www.takeourworldback.com.

I hope I said I am unaware of any detailed estimate.

Anyway thanks for the link! I'll check it out.
 
Live load

I'm afraid you'll have to explain that to me.

If, as you just stated, the floors outside the core should be able to support 288 pounds per square foot (which seems perfectly reasonable to me) before suffering damage, why are you insisting they were only loaded to 27 pounds per square foot in real life?

This isn't a safety factor of four you're now claiming, it's a safety factor of ten!!

Why do you think the above caculation supports you, and not me?

This doesn't support my estimated actual live load. But it does indicate a safety factor of 2.8 if the building is fully loaded to design load. I don't claim a safety factor within the design load. I claim that buildings are rarely loaded over the entire floor area at the full design load.

Anyway, I'm claiming that live load (25 psf) plus superimposed dead load (8 psf) = 33 psf outside the core which I have corrected you before on.

Lets look again at the live load more realistically this time:

I claim 25 psf average actual live load based on the fact that there were on average 250 people working on each floor. (Before I used 800 cubicles and 400 cubilcles for the sake of argument making assumptions in favor of your argument.) Now let's use 250 cubicles at 25 sq ft each plus 10 sq ft of access area. Then lets add all the other stuff.

So we have 35 sq ft x 25 lbs/sq ft = 875 lbs which we can divide up among normal cubicle stuff.

1 person = 200 lbs
1 cubicle = 200 lbs
files and books and paper = 200 lbs
1 computer (circa 1995) = 60 lbs
printer, chair, and misc 215 lbs

I think this is pretty reasonable for the cubicle areas.

Now the other stuff. We have used 8750 sq ft which means we have at least 20,000 sq ft left for conference rooms, lunch area, storage, closets, file areas, main frames, USBs, copiers etc. That means we have 250 tons to play with.

10 USBs = 10 tons
10 mainframes = 10 tons
10 copiers = 10 tons
10 files areas = 50 tons
10 safes = 10 tons
100 conference tables = 25 tons
1000 conference chairs = 20 tons

I have made everything essentially out of concrete and we still have at least 100 tons left.

I suggest we finish our discussion of liveloads before we get into superimposed dead loads (cable, ducts, ceilings, flooring, cooling, heating, sprinkler, water, sewer, etc.)
 
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Mechanical rooms

...
What GregoryUlrich is missing is the mechanical room loads (which can be very high), the wall facade and probably interior partitions. Interior partitions, if full height, are generally designed at 20psf dead load. If they're not full-height, they can be designed under live load as their effect on the building mass for earthquake loading is not significant. A full-height partition is a light-gauge steel framing and architectural cladding that clips to the top (joists or floor deck above) and to the slab below. Other partitions are typically what you'd expect of cubicles.

I know I am missing the mechanical floors. I am also missing the hat truss and antenna. Since I have overestimated the core, I believe it will be a wash. I will do my best to deal with this when I update my paper.
 

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