Iraq war + WMD's = LIE

3) Chemical Weapons in Fallujah
I call BS, but admit to knowing little about this. Where's the evidence?

There is none. I believe he's refering to the use of white phosphorous munitions, which were used, and which other nut jobs labelled as chemical weapons. But white phosphorous is an incendiary weapon, not a chemical weapon.

4) Depleted Uranium everywhere
And not a drop to drink. The hazards of DU, as has been pointed out, are overrated. Pulverised and inhaled, there may be individual health risks, but environmentally and in general terms, it's a low risk.

More to the point, the risk is heavy metal toxicity, not radiological. One wouldn't call lead or arsenic a nuclear weapon, but both are dangerous.

TC329 has no idea what the terms chemical weapons OR nuclear weapons actually means. And since those are not exactly difficult words to understand (or figure out), I can only conclude he's an idiot.
 
5) and the lies about WMD.
I think the government(s) (particularly my own) actually believed that there would be WMDs found to justify their pre-emptive invasion. There's no evidence of outright lying that I've seen, just heavy spin afterward as damage limitation.

I agreed with pretty much everything you said Big Les although I initially supported the war based on a belief in that it was necessary to rely on the integrity of the chief executive to make the correct decision because of his access to intelligence that was not available to the average citizen.

I do quibble with your statement that there is no evidence of outright lying though. I agree that Bush and Blair both possibly thought there would be some WMD in Iraq. I think, however, that the strength of evidence for their conclusions was absolutely misrepresented. The underlying evidence for WMD in Iraq was very suspect and in every case the dubiousness of that evidence was lied about. There have been long threads on this point at JREF and there were some people that participated in those threads that did not share my view on this, but for me the evidence is overwhelming: Bushco was absolutely engaged in organized lying about the evidence for WMD in Iraq.

A counter to the view that Bush and Blair actually thought that Hussein had WMD is that every time secret intelligence about the location of the WMD was provided to the inspectors, the inspectors found nothing. This might have made an average person suspicious about the reliability of the evidence. It is also, at least suspicious, that the war was pushed forward before the inspectors had completed their inspections. If Bush and Blair had been so certain that WMD existed I think they might have waited for the absolute proof of what they knew to be there to be unearthed.
 
Seeing how this was moved from the Conspiracy Theory Forums then it's safe to say that you do acknowledge that :

1) Chemical Weapons were used by the US on Fallujah
Define "chemical weapons." If your definition includes incendiaries, please see the UN regulations on chemical weapons, specifically the section on definitions. I don't care if you don't like that definition, that's the definition, and if you don't like it you're welcome to register your objections with the UN.

2) Nuclear Weapons (DU) have been used all over the country
DU is not a nuclear weapon. Nuclear weapons produce nuclear detonations. DU is only extremely weakly radioactive; it is more dangerous in terms of heavy metal poisoning, which you can get just as badly or worse from tungsten or lead, than it is in terms of radioactivity. While there is anecdotal evidence that exposure to low-level radiation over a long period of time can have health risks in excess of those commonly accepted, the plural of anecdote is not evidence, and there certainly is no credible evidence of this at this time, and considerable evidence to the contrary. Finally, define "all over the country."

3) A genocide is being carried out in Iraq
Genocide is the attempted killing of every single member of a certain race; that has been extended to a religious group that is technically not mono-racial, IMO fairly if not entirely accurately, in the Jews. Nothing like that is being attempted in Iraq. The most pessimistic estimates of casualties are in the hundreds of thousands, and more reasonable ones in the tens of thousands, in a country inhabited by 26 millions. It isn't even decimation. It isn't even within an order of magnitude of decimation. Not even the most exaggerated claim makes it that high.

4) Torture is common place
Certainly I am very much not in favor of the use of torture, by anyone, at any time, for any reason. First, there is the proven fact that it does not work if one's objective is to gather information. So the only reason for using it is punishment, and I'm not in favor of using it to punish someone; my country's constitution specifically forbids it, as a matter of law. Second, if it is being used for punishment, it is punishment of people who have not been found guilty of anything. Being found guilty requires that someone have appeared in front of a legally constituted court, and been presented with the opportunity to mount a defense against the accusations against them, not to mention have the accusations and evidence presented to them publicly. I consider it a stain on my country's honor that the situation in Abu Ghraib was allowed to occur, and far moreso that those responsible for oversight who failed that responsibility were not tried for it.

On the other hand, what do you mean by "common place?" And by the way, who precisely is doing the torturing? We have so far one accusation of a series of incidents perpetrated by a small number of individuals, who were caught and punished (though, as I say, those responsible for seeing to it it didn't happen in the first place were not punished, or even accused). Are you saying the Iraqis are doing it to each other? Well, apparently that may be true- but if it is, what precisely would you have the occupying force, which is at least notionally supposed to be supporting the government that is engaging in this torture, do about it? Just leave? Think they'll stop? I think not. And by the way, just precisely what do you define as "torture?" And how does that relate to sawing a living human being's head off with a knife? Is THAT torture?

5) We invaded a country based on Right Wing Extremists WILD CONSPIRACY THEORY
This appears to be true. Not only that, but it appears that they had enough information to know that it was before moving forward. This is incompetent at best, evil at worst.

On the other hand, I have to admit that even I thought they'd find SOMETHING. I mean, be it twenty-year-old gas shells, or another insecticide factory, or at least they'd fake something up if they couldn't put their hands on something that at least LOOKED like it might be INTERPRETED as a WMD. But they didn't even bother to lie about it. Ever wonder why that is?

And by the way, while I think it was a stupid decision no matter what the justification, I do have to admit that the man was definitely a loose cannon in the ME. Not that the situation's any better now then before we started, and potentially worse, but he was, after all, a pretty unsavory fellow. And we at least STARTED with SOME of them thinking maybe it was gonna be OK we'd invaded. Now, they all just think we're dips**ts, but given the incompetence this administration has shown over and over again, I guess that's no surprise. Apparently they got a bunch of political cronies and ideological bedfellows over there who were just as incompetent as they were to try to run things, and it's all gone to hell in a handbasket.

I do think we need to clean it up, and I think most people think so too. And cleaning it up is a hell of a problem. And I don't think the way numb nutz is going about it is going to help any; the only hopeful sign I see is that someone relatively competent seems to be in charge on the ground, but I fear that there are still a bunch of the same dumb cronies over there screwing things up, and I know for sure there are on this side of the operation, so I have no doubt that come the end of the summer, we're going to see some fireworks. It might well come before that; after all, how long do you stay on the sinking ship telling everyone everything's OK before you decide it might be a good idea to find one of those boats they're supposed to have on there in case it sinks?

So three of your five assertions strike me as unfounded, or using definitions that are not commonly accepted for specific technical terms that you are using for shock value. Two of the five appear to have some foundation in fact, though even in one of those two cases there is strong equivocation possible, and the single remaining one is based on interpretation. While I agree with your emotional state, I do not agree with your facts. I think also that presenting non-factual data in this case, as in all others I can think of, is counterproductive. Basically, I see no reason why what you've said here will help.
 
I, for one, support every single action the US government do. Whether they torture innocent children, gas millions of Chinese, stage a nuclear attack on Paris, or make men eat their own faeces. Remember now, that I dont believe they are responsible for 9/11, so I must support everything they do right?

Right?

What the hell are you talking about?

Do YOU even know!?
 
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Damn that is SO accurate. That was every Democrat to ever exist?

Back to reality. They have all admitted they made a mistake and want to correct it. Bush is the only moron still "staying the course" after he himself admitted it was a mistake.:boggled:

(Hilary might as well be in the Bush administration)


Everyone had the same "intelligence" get over it. Try this on for reality, Saddam needed to have his ass kicked - hard.
 
I'm just curious as to where members of this forum stand on the war in Iraq, torture in Abu Ghraib, Chemical Weapons in Fallujah, Depleted Uranium everywhere, and the lies about WMD.

So does the average JREF support the war in Iraq or not?

Well it's clear on who's side you're on. Apparently you're all for beheadings and suicide bombers killing non combatants in public places. We'll throw in human shields for good measure.
 
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