Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[Cleon]

3)Never said prayer and religion prevents senseless murder, although I certainly believe there would be less of it in America if we still had voluntary prayer in public schools.

There has always been, and there will continue to be, voluntary prayer in schools. To claim otherwise is a lie--not a mistake, not a misinterpretation, a deliberate lie.

 

[slingblade]

3)Never said prayer and religion prevents senseless murder, although I certainly believe there would be less of it in America if we still had voluntary prayer in public schools.

That's the only kind of prayer public schools do have.

The brainwashing is effective, though. I've actually spoken to students who firmly believe if they pray while at school, they'll be arrested. That somehow the Thought Police will know if they say grace over their lunch tray and will haul them to jail.

And yet every time the football team heads out to the field, they do a prayer huddle.

And the contradiction never penetrates a single brain cell. Sad, really.

 

[skeptifem]

Regarding your above 1,2, and 3.

1) I never said he was a "devout" Christian. But even Jefferson himself claimed he was a Christian.

oh goodness

Thomas Jefferson was a Bible Scholar who read the Bible daily. Jefferson read the Bible in English, Greek, Latin, and French. Jefferson also contributed his own money to 10 different churches in the 8 years he was president.

He also stated that Jefferson attended church every week for seven years

2) Never said they want to change the faith of Americans.

And I believe its only going to get worse the more the ACLU and others fight to get rid of God in public life.

granted, not exactly the same thing, but generally, the point still stands. because its a silly claim thats been debunked. that you keep repeating over and over. you can be publically religious all you friggin want to as long as it doesnt involve the government in an official capacity.

3)Never said prayer and religion prevents senseless murder, although I certainly believe there would be less of it in America if we still had voluntary prayer in public schools.

do you not see how you just said you think it would prevent murders? if you do x and the result is less murders, then murders were prevented.

and there is still voluntary prayer in public school, just not official school lead prayer.

 

[DOC]

There has always been, and there will continue to be, voluntary prayer in schools. To claim otherwise is a lie--not a mistake, not a misinterpretation, a deliberate lie.

Then why have they threatened to handcuff students (at one school) in the past for praying around a flagpole.

Are you saying at the beginning of the school day there is a "specific time" set for volunteer prayer. I don't believe there is, (do you have proof of that) and if for some reason it is now allowed it would only be because of the recent fighting in court the American Center for Law and Justice ACLJ ( not ACLU) has done in court.. The American Center for Law and Justice has won some recent victories for religious speech in schools and is finally starting to educate students on their rights because so many of them (as well as school administrators) have been brainwashed by the ACLU.

 

[Cleon]

Then why have they threatened to handcuff students (at one school) in the past for praying around a flagpole.

Given your history, you're going to have to excuse me* if I'm a wee bit skeptical of this claim.

Are you saying

If you have to ask, the answer is probably "no." Don't put words in my mouth. Fowl didn't tolerate it, don't expect anyone else to. It's dishonest and sleazy**.


* Or not. I really don't care.

** Not that we expect anything better from you.

 

[Ducky]

Then why have they threatened to handcuff students (at one school) in the past for praying around a flagpole.

You're going to have to cite your source on that DOC, as I am skeptical this even ever happened.

Are you saying at the beginning of the school day there is a "specific time" set for volunteer prayer. I don't believe there is, (do you have proof of that) and if for some reason it is now allowed it would only be because of the recent fighting in court the American Center for Law and Justice ACLJ ( not ACLU) has done in court.. The American Center for Law and Justice has won some recent victories for religious speech in schools and is finally starting to educate students on their rights because so many of them (as well as school administrators) have been brainwashed by the ACLU.

Once again, you put words in other's mouths. We can tell when you use the term "are you saying."

 

[DOC]

There has always been, and there will continue to be, voluntary prayer in schools. To claim otherwise is a lie--not a mistake, not a misinterpretation, a deliberate lie.

You say I'm telling a deliberate lie and yet you don't offer any source that there has always been voluntary prayer in schools.

You (as well as others) throw the word lie around very flippantly. The fact that you put the word "deliberate" in front of the word lie proves to me that you don't understand the definition of the word lie.

Show us a source on your statement that there has always been voluntary prayer in school. And if you can't then I feel you owe me an apology.

 

[Ducky]

You say I'm telling a deliberate lie and yet you don't offer any source that there has always been voluntary prayer in schools.

You're asking someone to prove a negative. illogical. You are the one who is charged with supporting the statement that voluntary prayer is not allowed. Still waiting on you to cite where students were handcuffed for it.

You (as well as others) throw the word lie around very flippantly. The fact that you put the word "deliberate" in front of the word lie proves to me that you don't understand the definition of the word lie.

On the contrary. You have, in this very thread, progressed to lies. Here's how that works: You made many unsupported statements. When given evidence they were unsupported, inaccurate and at times downright wrong, you continued to make those statements. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that you are now willingly perpetuating false statements. That is lying.

Show us a source on your statement that there has always been voluntary prayer in school. And if you can't then I feel you owe me an apology.

Again, you are shifting your burden of evidence. You are the one claiming that it is not allowed. Support that claim, or retract it.

Also, I feel you owe several people in this thread an apology for your intellectual dishonesty, myself included. Are you going to answer my question:

I must be communist, and therefore antithetical to the American spirit, is that it?

You made statements that implied that. I am now asking you to clarify if your intent was to smear me as an anti-american anti-religious communist.

 

[DOC]

You're asking someone to prove a negative. illogical. You are the one who is charged with supporting the statement that voluntary prayer is not allowed.

Translation: Cleon said there has "always" been voluntary prayer in schools and its a false statement. Not only did he make a false statement but he accused me of lying because of the false statement he made. I'll give you proof as time permits.

Regarding the handcuff incident -- to my memory the students were threatened with being handcuffed but what actually happened to two of the students is "much worse" than being threatened with handcuffs and I'll bring in that info as time permits.

 

[Ducky]

Translation: Cleon said there has "always" been voluntary prayer in schools and its a false statement. Not only did he make a false statement but he accused me of lying because of the false statement he made. I'll give you proof as time permits.

In other words, you just wanted to fling an accusation in hopes it will detract from your own logical fallacies, and lies. Please reread my post explaining the burden of evidence for claimants. You stated first that voluntary prayer is not allowed. It is up to you to support that statement or retract it.

Cleon did not make a false statement, you put words in his mouth. He did not claim that there was a set time for voluntary prayer, as you said he did, he simply said that voluntary prayer is now, and as far as anyone can show, always has been, tolerated in schools. However, he is not the one that made the claim, you did. You need to support it.

And I have explained why we refer to you as telling lies. You have yet again ignored most of my posts.

Regarding the handcuff incident -- to my memory the students were threatened with being handcuffed but what actually happened to two of the students is "much worse" than being threatened with handcuffs and I'll bring in that info shortly.

Primary sources, please. This forum won't pay much attention if you simply produce someone like Kennedy or Barton saying it happened without primary source references.


ETA:

I am still waiting to hear your response to this DOC:

Also, I feel you owe several people in this thread an apology for your intellectual dishonesty, myself included. Are you going to answer my question:

I must be communist, and therefore antithetical to the American spirit, is that it?

You made statements that implied that. I am now asking you to clarify if your intent was to smear me as an anti-american anti-religious communist.

 

[slingblade]

You say I'm telling a deliberate lie and yet you don't offer any source that there has always been voluntary prayer in schools.

I will offer an excellent source. I predict you will [try to] find a flaw and reject it. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

From the U.S. Department of Education:

Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," [ 9 ] and the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." [ 10 ] Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. [ 11 ] For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," [ 12 ] and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech.

[ 9 ] Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969).

[ 10 ] Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995).

[ 11 ] Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302 (explaining that "not every message" that is "authorized by a government policy and take place on government property at government-sponsored school-related events" is "the government's own").

[ 12 ] Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.

Now. You lie when you say voluntary prayer is forbidden. An apology and admission of your error is appropriate.

I am not holding my breath.

EDIT: and by the way, Doc: you will find people in schools abusing this policy, both ways. It doesn't mean they're right, and it doesn't mean they get away with it. It means they've made a mistake, and they need to be corrected. That's all it means. Gads.

 

[DOC]

Cleon did make a false statement by saying that voluntary prayer has always been allowed in schools.

If voluntary prayer has always been allowed in public schools why has Senator Byrd of West Virginia been trying (for many years) to get a constitutional admendment passed that allows voluntary prayer in public schools.


From the website First Amendment Center. The article is "Senator Byrd introduces Amendment allowing School Prayer"

"The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in separate cases that state-imposed school prayer and moments of silence in schools are unconstitutional. The Court has also said that prayers at public school graduation ceremonies are unconstitutional, as are student-led prayers over public address systems at public school football games.

Byrd's proposed amendment reads, "Nothing in this Constitution, including any amendment to this Constitution, shall be construed to prohibit voluntary prayer or require prayer in a public school, or to prohibit voluntary prayer or require prayer at a public school extracurricular activity."

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16832


And if voluntary prayer has always been allowed in public school why were two students put in a police cruiser and threatened with mace for praying around a flagpole. I'll give you the cite on this in my next post.

 

[slingblade]

Cleon did make a false statement by saying that voluntary prayer has always been allowed in schools.

If voluntary prayer has always been allowed in public schools why has Senator Byrd of West Virginia been trying (for many years) to get a constitutional admendment passed that allows voluntary prayer in public schools.

He's a grandstanding moron trying to curry the favor of those who mistakenly believe he's changing something.

I just showed you the Supreme Court's own words plainly stating:

"nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day,"

Do you get it yet?

And if voluntary prayer is allowed in public school why were two students put in a police cruiser and threatened with mace for praying around a flagpole. I'll give you the cite on this in my next post.

When I see the cite and the story, and when I do the proper research into it, I can answer you. This is what intelligent people who are really trying to discover truth do.

But I already told you: You are going to find examples of people who screw this up. All they mean is that someone screwed it up.

 

[Ducky]

Cleon did make a false statement by saying that voluntary prayer has always been allowed in schools.

If voluntary prayer has always been allowed in public schools why has Senator Byrd of West Virginia been trying (for many years) to get a constitutional admendment passed that allows voluntary prayer in public schools.


From the website First Amendment Center. The article is "Senator Byrd introduces Amendment allowing School Prayer"

"The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in separate cases that state-imposed school prayer and moments of silence in schools are unconstitutional. The Court has also said that prayers at public school graduation ceremonies are unconstitutional, as are student-led prayers over public address systems at public school football games.

Byrd's proposed amendment reads, "Nothing in this Constitution, including any amendment to this Constitution, shall be construed to prohibit voluntary prayer or require prayer in a public school, or to prohibit voluntary prayer or require prayer at a public school extracurricular activity."

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16832


And if voluntary prayer has always been allowed in public school why were two students put in a police cruiser and threatened with mace for praying around a flagpole. I'll give you the cite on this in my next post.

I couldn't tell you what the motivations are to introduce that bill, but as you can clearly see in slingblade's posts, that amendment would be superfluous. Do you have any response to her cite from the US Department of Education?

As for your mace flagpole story, you need to provide primary sources.

 

[slingblade]

This one?

Faw: And the Christian Coalition insists students are persecuted all the time for their religious beliefs. Listen to Ralph Reed describe a 15-year-old student in Metropolis, Illinois.
(Mr. Ralph Reed) “...who was escorted into a police paddy wagon, handcuffed, and threatened with mace because she tried to lead a prayer around the school’s flagpole.”
Faw: Outrageous? Indeed. But visit tiny Metropolis, talk to local officials, and you’ll hear Ralph Reed’s horror story did not happen.
Mr. Don Smith (School Superintendent): There was no paddy wagon. There was a police car. There were no handcuffs used, And there wasn’t no mace. The so-called Christian Coalition has, in essence, misrepresented the facts.

Is that the story you mean? Yes, now I'd love to see that cite. Go ahead, show me. But I want to see the original story from 1995. Not Ralph Reed's biased interpretation of it.

The original story. Show me.

EDIT: I also found this:

In 1991 Pat Robertson's 700 Club aired reports that school children were prevented from praying around a flagpole at a public school in Metropolis, Illinois. In fact, the dispute involved adults who were arrested for trespassing on school grounds (school district policy did not to allow adults to come onto school grounds uninvited). It was the adults, not the children, that were placed under arrest (voluntary prayer around a flagpole is perfectly legal).

I thought the story was first told in 1995, but it seems it's been around since 1991 at least. Oddly, though, I can find no primary or original source for this story. Apparently, the only place it was ever "reported" was on Pat's show.

How odd. My proof has numerous cites of SCOTUS case law behind it, and yours has.....?

 

[Ducky]

Law enforcement doesn't use "paddy wagons" anymore. They transport prisoners one at a time if possible, in squad cars. The only people that use the term "paddy wagon" are on black and white movies from the 40s.

What do you have to say, DOC, to Slingblade's sources?


I am still waiting for an answer to this:

Also, I feel you owe several people in this thread an apology for your intellectual dishonesty, myself included. Are you going to answer my question:

I must be communist, and therefore antithetical to the American spirit, is that it?

You made statements that implied that. I am now asking you to clarify if your intent was to smear me as an anti-american anti-religious communist.

 

[DOC]

Well I said I'd be back with the cite about the students who were put in a police cruiser and threatened with mace. The cite is from testimony at a congressional hearing dealing with a proposed amendment called "The Protection from Personal Intrustuion Act.

There are many horror stories in this cite. For example the girl who was told by her principal she couldn't read her bible on the school bus because it was a violation of church and state. And the student who was told by the principle and the school board attorney that anyone who submitted a speech for the graduation keynote address that included a prayer or reference to God would be removed from the graduation program.

But the one about the students at the flagpole is the one I think really shows that voluntary prayer has not always been allowed at public school and that Cleon (and fowlsound for that matter) should offer me an apology for saying I am a liar.

Here's the "praying at the schoolyard flagpole" story given at the Congressional hearing

"Early in September, Misty had learned about an event being conducted by students in schools across America. The event was the National Day of Student Prayer, sometimes called ''See You At The Pole.'' Misty's youth pastor had told her about the event and encouraged her to consider participating. With a small circle of friends, Misty joined in quiet prayer in the minutes prior to the ringing of the first bell at school. The students stood in a circle, hands joined, around the school's flagpole.

Together and individually, the students prayed for each other, for their fellow students, for the school faculty and administration, and for their community. Only one thing went wrong for these students: they were seen praying by school officials, who called the City police who called the County Sheriff. Soon officers of the law were on campus with the purpose of breaking up the student prayer gathering.

When the students declined the officers' demand to discontinue their prayer, the officers sprang into action. Misty and a classmate were grabbed and placed under arrest and confined in a police cruiser. One officer who had menaced the students—while they prayed—with a can of mace entered the front seat of the cruiser in which Misty was confined and waved the can of mace around again. Misty and her fellow in prayer crime were confined to the cruiser for about fifteen to twenty minutes, and failed to report to class in accordance with the bells ringing on campus.

Finally, the principal of Misty's school concluded that she had probably learned her lesson and could be released. The administrator asked the police and sheriff's deputy to carry her around behind the school in the cruiser and then, out of sight of the student body, to release her. After she was allowed to return to school, Misty's nightmare had not ended. Soon school administrators revoked the honor given to Misty for her service to the school and threatened to jeopardize her good academic standing."

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju57840.000/hju57840_0.HTM#0

 

[slingblade]

Well I said I'd be back with the cite about the students who were put in a police cruiser and threatened with mace. The cite is from testimony at a congressional hearing dealing with a proposed amendment called "The Protection from Personal Intrustuion Act.

And so you did. This is a solid source. One I can trust. Thank you.

There are many horror stories in this cite.

Okay, wait. Put the hyperbole down. What happened at Virginia Tech a couple of weeks ago--THAT was a horror story. Okay? These stories are of unpleasant incidents, yes, but no horror was involved here.

Okay?

For example the girl who was told by her principal she couldn't read her bible on the school bus because it was a violation of church and state.

This is where you are making a mistake of reasoning. Please hear me out and read what I'm posting carefully, all right?

You do have the right to pray voluntarily in public school. You are allowed, if you prefer that term, to pray in public school.

You know this, because the cases in your cite were all corrected. (I read all the way down to the bottom. Did you?) None of them were allowed to stand, because the school officials in every case of voluntary prayer were wrong to stop it. They were wrong, because voluntary prayer is allowed in public school.

Having a right often means some people will try to deny you that right from time to time. That is why we have a court system: you can seek redress for this wrong, because it is a wrong. At least, as far as I can tell from the anecdotes related at that hearing.

You most certainly do have a right to pray, or read your bible, or talk about religion, voluntarily, provided you follow your school's guidelines for any kind of conversation. By that, I mean if you aren't allowed to talk in the halls, then it doesn't matter what the subject is--you aren't allowed to talk religion or anything else in the halls. Can we agree that it's not a violation of your rights in that case?

What happened to Misty was unfortunate and wrong, but it does not prove that prayer is not allowed--it proves exactly the opposite.

You should not be holding this case up as one that shows prayer isn't allowed, but one that shows, unquestionably, that it is allowed! Or else Misty wouldn't have won her suit.

Like I told you earlier: someone made a mistake. And it was corrected.

That is how you KNOW.

 

[Cleon]

Cleon did make a false statement by saying that voluntary prayer has always been allowed in schools.

You're lying again.

If voluntary prayer has always been allowed in public schools why has Senator Byrd of West Virginia been trying (for many years) to get a constitutional admendment passed that allows voluntary prayer in public schools.

That would be former Ku Klux Klansman Senator Byrd, yes? (Odd, the way you include that bit sometimes, and leave it out others...)

In any event, it's a stunt.

 

[Cleon]

Well I said I'd be back with the cite about the students who were put in a police cruiser and threatened with mace. The cite is from testimony at a congressional hearing dealing with a proposed amendment called "The Protection from Personal Intrustuion Act.

So it's not a news story, it's not a court case, it's merely the repetition of a story that it happened.

Color me underwhelmed.

But the one about the students at the flagpole is the one I think really shows that voluntary prayer has not always been allowed at public school and that Cleon (and fowlsound for that matter) should offer me an apology for saying I am a liar.

Not at all. You are a liar. If that bothers you, you really should stop lying.

Here's the "praying at the schoolyard flagpole" story given at the Congressional hearing

Again, story. Unverifiable story.

You know what's interesting about this? There is no other account of this story on the web anywhere. Googling "misty newberry" and "aclj" returns jack squat:

Your search - "Misty Newberry" aclj - did not match any documents.

There are no news stories that come up, no court transcripts, not even a press release or propaganda bit. Nada.

So this guy says it happened, but--mysteriously--there doesn't seem to be any evidence that it actually did, or that it happened the way he says it did.

Again--you'll have to excuse me* if I'm a wee bit skeptical.

* Or not. I really don't care.