20 People Shot Dead on Virginia Tech Campus

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Well, there are those here who would have you believe that if others had had guns, all those people untrained in the use of handguns would likely have increased, rather than decreased, the carnage.

Indeed, and my guess (and given my knowledge about guns, American universities and what actually happened that is all it is) is they are probably correct in relation to this specific incident.

However there are those who state this to be a fact and argue that the situation could not possibly be made worse by the presence of more guns. I do not agree with that as it implies that it is impossible e.g for the police to enter building at the same time as the armed student shoots the attacker, assume that the guy who has just shot someone is the bad guy and shoot him. This does not include any assumption about the competence of either of the shooters.

To then use that as a justification for arming more people while not addressing whether making arms more readily available would increase the incidence of such attacks (even if it reduced the severity) seems to me unjustified.

FWIW, I don't think that heavy gun control would currently work in the US (again based on extremely limited knowledge) due to the level of gun ownership and the signficant percentage of the population who would not support it.

 

[fuelair]

I guarantee that students would be less likely to debate whatever grade they were given.

Cute but beneath you.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

No, although I do not disagree with that point. I refer to posters who have given statistics showing that if guns had been legal on campus (CP only) that more than 30 people would have been killed - just not all at once. Those statistics are amazingly flawed, but even if correct are essentially saying "better the 33 died as they did than to allow guns on campus under legally controlled conditions which statistically might (if the stats I was using were valid) eventually result in more deaths over a year."

I find this argument morally flawed. Others seem to agree.

Actually, I was being nice, at least two of the posts did say that - just not with the words in exactly the same order (and different numbers as the body count changed).

Just to make sure I understand you:

If the statistics are right (a whole separate argument), and fewer people in total would die with a "no guns on campus" policy than a "allow some/all guns" policy, the former is morally flawed?

If so, why?

 

[SirPhilip]

I find this argument morally flawed. Others seem to agree.

It was a freak killing spree. They happen; and if you waved a magic wand and made all the guns disappear (talk about irrational..) it wouldn't have changed anything. Similarly, students carrying firearms around school campuses, while certainly making any spree killer's situation a lot more difficult, just isn't appropriate. A solution is at least two security guards on campus, each with M4 carbines and appropriately trained in police CQB techniques. It makes sense, especially with terrorism on the rise, that universities will become targets.

 

[shanek]

Having been the subject of both armed and non-armed crime, I prefer the situation in the UK, where thieves do not carry guns. Having had two guns pointed at me is not a nice thing.

Well, I would say that the differences you're experiencing in the UK go way beyond whether guns are allowed or not.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If students at VT are "packing heat," the gunman's first awareness of this fact would likely be when he hears a sharp noise behind him followed by what feels like a hammer to the back of his spine, followed by difficulty breathing. Unless his first shots happen to take out all the people who are packing.

Could you please cite your evidence that firearms turn pussies into real men? Why would firearms make people go from compliant to combative?

 

[SirPhilip]

As a student of Filipino martial arts we were shown a law-enforcement instructional video entitled Surviving Edged Weapons, (obviously directed at the law enforcement community) which stated that an officer with an unholstered handgun requires 15 feet against a knife-wielding attacker to effectively engage him as a target.

Indeed, non shooters don't realize just how difficult it is to actually hit a rapidly moving target with a pistol in a crisis situation, but action movies would have you believe it is as simple as point and clicking. The only reason he was able to kill so many people was they were confined yet attempting to move away from him. Had he stepped through that door and was immediately tackled, he would have been completely taken off guard, even if he managed to drop the assailant. There was also, apparently, three shots for every victim. I would be living with a lot of guilt had I ran away in such a situation. Sad..

 

[ponderingturtle]

Keeping citizens from being able to obtain firearms has obviously not stopped the attack. That was the entire goal, and it failed.

The CIA failed to prevent 9/11, so we need to disdand it. Clearly inteligence does not work. That was the entire goal, it failed.

 

[bigred]

never mind.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I would agree if such an escape were to start at the top. As long as cops and government has access to guns, so should the public. And frankly, this Bush administration, coupled with a few recent cases of police atrocities have only served to make me more supportive of gun rights.

What weapons do you limit that to? Should I be able to buy anti aircraft weapons, land mines and the like?

 

[ponderingturtle]

The fact remains, this event has nothing to do with gun control and those people, especially those in the european press, who are trying to make it into a gun control issue are simply exploiting the deaths of these people to further their political agenda. It's pretty sickening actually.

Why is that sickening but BPSGC is not sickening? He also immediatly decided to turn tragety into political statement. Or is it only sickening when the other side does it?

 

[BPSCG]

Could you please cite your evidence that firearms turn pussies into real men? Why would firearms make people go from compliant to combative?

False dichotomy. Somewhere between "pussies" and "real men" is "Joe Blow."

In any case, as others have repeatedly pointed out here, firearms do not change the type of person you are; they only change your ability to react in this kind of situation. If there's a fire in your house, and you have no fire extinguisher, you get out. That does not make you a pussy. If you have a fire extinguisher, you might stay and try to fight the fire. That does not make you a "real man."

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, no, that wasn't really what I've been trying to say. Though I'll certainly acknowledge that if I am having a discussion with an armed man, I will make every effort to be respectful and courteous to him.

But this is just the terrorists winning, they are controling your behavior with fear of violence. The very definition of terrorism.

 

[Katana]

It is the "quantum effect". I saw it on Oprah so I know it's true. She shoots her show in Chicago which is even more proof.



I guess northsider when you lived in city? Can you share what suburb? So much weird synchronicity going on here I want to see more strange connections. Yes, I am a Chicago Cop. Rogers Park area now. Wild West Side before. Blue shirt patrol then gang team (plainclothes), tactical team (plainclothes) now back to uniform on a beat.



To visit or live?



If you are female (and since there is a Mr. Katana then it is probable) like your Avatar you would get on pretty quick due to Equal Opportunity standards. Even faster if you are an ethnic minority. That applies even more so to promotions. I will let you know when they are accepting applications. They may be now for all I know. I will check. 2 year college requirement. The age requirement has changed over the years. Was a max of 34ish then that was found unconstitutional then they got one back somehow. Minimum is 22, I believe. Can find out the current if you wish.



Can you tell me what you do? I went from The Boston Consulting Group (peon level) to Chicago Police. I was sick of the cubicle life and let myself "blue sky" about what I would be if I wasn't afraid of a major change. Then I made that change. Best decision of my life and second best thing to happen to me (my son being #1 and he not being a decision). All my peers thought I was nuts. I laugh more in a week now then I used to in a year and I used to laugh a lot even before! "It's all about the Yuks!"



And I you. You have made me feel so welcome! I am truly grateful. I will happily volunteer to take you on a ride-along if you want to get a feel for the job. I can easily get you a vest (bullet-resistant) for the tour of duty. You just have to sign a waiver and have a sponsor (me). I have taken people before and they loved it and developed a whole new perspective on police officers. Any time you want, let me know.

TBL, figured I'd just send you a PM.

 

[Mephisto]

Cute but beneath you.

I forgot to add a - I don't take too many of Dustin's posts seriously and the thought of arming professors obviously doesn't take into consideration the amount of professors who shouldn't be trusted with crayolas, much less a firearm.

I think my assertion toward the beginning of the thread that key personnel in each building be given a radio (complete with a duress code and timely/routine status checks during an incident) is sufficient to allow police to pinpoint a gunman.

 

[Kerberos]

No, although I do not disagree with that point. I refer to posters who have given statistics showing that if guns had been legal on campus (CP only) that more than 30 people would have been killed - just not all at once. Those statistics are amazingly flawed, but even if correct are essentially saying "better the 33 died as they did than to allow guns on campus under legally controlled conditions which statistically might (if the stats I was using were valid) eventually result in more deaths over a year."

I find this argument morally flawed. Others seem to agree.

Let's try to follow that train of thoughts to its (il)logical conclusion. Churchill should not have opposed Hitler because WW2 resulted in tens of millions of dead people, any negative consequences of letting Hitler go on unopposed can be apparently be discounted because they're hypothetical, not actual (on account of the fact it wasn't done). Somehow though I doubt you'd support such use of the same "logic". Fact is that it is 100% pointless to assess a policy except against either another policy which will of cause be hypothetical.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Sometimes, I really hate my species. I wonder if the dolphins would adopt me.

Only if you are a non-smoker.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes. At a college in Virginia, no less.

Note: Although the magazines he was carrying were empty, the one in the gun still had three rounds in it.

Again that does not fit the question as the individual was a off duty law enforcement officer again. The point being sherifs deputy. Want to try for a civilian bystander?

 

[Katana]

More on the shooter:

BLACKSBURG, Va. - The gunman involved in the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history had previously been accused of stalking two female student and had been taken to a mental health facility in 2005, but no charges were filed, police said Wednesday.

Cho Seung-Hui worried one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in 2005 that police were called in, said Police Chief Wendell Flinchum.

He said the woman declined to press charges and Cho was referred to the university disciplinary system. The case was then outside the scope of the police department, he said.

In a separate incident, the department received a call from Cho’s parents who were concerned that he might be suicidal and he was taken to mental health facility, Flinchum said.

Cho's roommates and professors described on Wednesday a troubled, quiet young man who rarely spoke to his roommates or made eye contact with them. Roommates Joseph Aust and Karan Grewal said his bizarre behavior became even less predictable in recent weeks.

Cho started waking up as early as 5:30 a.m. instead of his usual 7 a.m., Aust, told ABC's "Good Morning America."

Link

I wonder what the follow-up was after the parents' telephone call.

 

[ponderingturtle]

According to Heavy Gun Control Advocates, people with guns are stupid and will start shooting each other, and go around shooting people without threatening/warning. Weird.

And the guns make real men out of pussies is a weird arguement that gun advocates seem to use alot. No one has done anything to show that having a gun makes resistance instead of compliance more likely.