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20 People Shot Dead on Virginia Tech Campus

Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
yup, but note that mine are "classy"
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No they aren't.

You're assuming things about someone based on nationality and state. You're exhibiting prejudice. Prejudice isn't "classy", except to the bigot's eye (surprise surprise?)

I live in Texas, but I'm an atheist. I live in Corpus Christi, but I'm an atheist. This city has an extremely high Christian Evangelical crowd, and yet I'm an atheist. You cannot judge me based on geographic location.

I was born in Germany. I lived in Germany. I also lived in Korea. I also lived in Alabama. I also lived in Indiana. You cannot judge me based on any of those locations, or else you'll get very contradictive stereotypes.

I personally believe that people should have the right to bear arms. I think that everyone has the right to be able to protect themselves and their family. I also consider most humans capable of making rational informed decisions, even when they do not.

I also do not consider firearms to be "death rays", to be compared to nuclear weapons (as I've seen done in this forum). Nor would I go out of my way to kill an air marshal like CF Larsen would.

I understand firearms, and I have a healthy respect for them. And I accept a few core truths about firearms in America:

1) Firearms are common, and always will be.
2) Firearms will always be in the hands of someone, if they are willing to get them, even if they're willing to break the law.
3) Most people are good people.
4) Thus, if more people are allowed to have firearms, chances are greater that firearms end up in the hands of good people.

That's where I stand on the subject, really.
 
William Parcher said:
Then the killer knows to shoot the professor first without giving any warning. Then don't just stand there and shoot at others...take some form of cover (the doorway?) and start popping and ducking. If you see anyone in the room with a gun, you focus on them or just flee. If you get return fire from the room, you flee. Just as you are about to duck into another room, you hide your gun and pretend to be running from a killer. You can give a "description" of the killer or not. You might get those students to help you barracade the door and even find out if any are armed by asking for just that. At the right moment you drop the proff and start banging away at any known students with guns.

If you are the killer and you intentionally give false information to students who do not know you are the killer, you could ramp up the deaths. Of course it's all going to stop at some point, but the death toll might still be something like at VT.
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I'm sorry, but do you have any evidence at all that the situation you described has ever happened? Ever?

'Cause this honestly seems like pure and total bullspit. And speculation.

What was it that someone talked about earlier here? I think it was QuixoteCoyote or somesuch... the "900 ninjas assault you in an alleyway" example? Basically, going from "what if..." to "what if..." until you get into extremes.

The above seems like an extreme "what if..." scenario. Might as well insert flying cowboys and ninjas.
 
Tony said:
Absolutely. And that's a question that should be asked. But I think it's silly, in the pursuit of answering that question, to jump to the conclusion that society or guns are to blame. It's much more complicated and goes much deeper than that.
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Jumping to a conclusion would be unfortunate. Blaming guns might be premature. On the other hand, my question was about why the people who do this seem to choose the United States to do it more often than other places. It does seem that "blaming" society is appropriate. More accurately, we really should ask what is different about our society compared to other societies in which these incidents occur less frequently.
 
Mephisto said:
Y I would find it difficult to simply secure my own position outside the building while imaging the carnage going on inside.

You are correct that it is difficult and advanced training modules address this specific problem to attempt to wean an officer from his instinct to do the "Chicago bum rush" and disregard their assigned task when attempting to operate as a cohesive unit in situations like this.
WARNING! Grizzled, Jaded, Old-Timer, "My flashlight's got more time in the on position than you got on the job, kid" Anecdote Alert!!
In high risk entry training (or some such macho, quasi-militarily named course I took when on Gang/Tactical Team) we spent an entire day doing choreographed drills where teams of 2 officers effected a high risk felony stop with one of the officer's assigned to ignore EVERY action by an active subject and concentrate ONLY on a second, inactive subject in a simulated "vehicle" (2 chairs). We did this over and over while HBT (Hostage, Barricade, Terrorist) team instructors kept telling the "Guard" officer to only watch the inactive subject and keep him at gunpoint. Complete success. Then we moved into flowing scenarios in a parking lot with real vehicles and consequent limited visibility. The scenarios are videotaped and each team is sequestered until all are finished. Tape after tape showed the "guard" officer letting himself be distracted by the actions (screaming, flailing, refusal to show hands) of the driver as he is being ordered out of car and in that moment the "inactive" passenger turns and fires multiple rounds or a third offender pops up from back seat with shotgun and blasts at everyone. In my group of 8 teams only one team survived because only one guard officer stuck to his assigned task, saw the gun in time to shoot.

If the guys with long guns were there for anti-sniper cover or just plain cover (both very plausible) then they had the backs of other coppers and did their job correctly. I'd be pretty pissed if I thought I had cover and got lit up because some supercop, gloryhound was writing checks MY ass had to cash.
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BPSCG said:
What I have been trying to say is that if society can only protect me up to a certain point, then I have a right and a responsibility to protect myself. And society has no ethical right to try to take that right away from me.
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^---- +1
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
When Rice Krispies are outlawed, only outlaws will have Rice Krispies.

I blame Kellogg's for this tragedy.
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If they outlaw evolution, only outlaws will evolve.
 
Meadmaker said:
It does seem that "blaming" society is appropriate. More accurately, we really should ask what is different about our society compared to other societies in which these incidents occur less frequently.
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"Blame" is the wrong word. You're right when you say "More accurately, we really should ask what is different about our society compared to other societies in which these incidents occur less frequently". And although I could make a few guesses as to why, I really don't know, but I'm pretty sure that guns have very little to do with why it happens.
 
Katana said:
I guess what I'm saying is that these were likely four of many well-armed officers on the scene. How do we know that the rest of their team wasn't already at work on entering the building while they were to cover other potential exits for the gunman (i.e. windows)?

I realize that I didn't see the clip that you did, so maybe I'm really off-base.
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Sure you're not a Cop yourself, Katana? More likely, former SEAL/UDT? You rock! Come to Chicago. C.P.D. could use you.
 
Tony said:
Since when it is "classy" to be a xenophobe and a racist?
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mm like what happened with my argument (my comments "against" you are not arguments, just mere annotations), you didnt get it. I will have to explain.

Having an American Flag as your avatar denotes that you are proud of your country. It can be argued that you are in agreement with most of its policies (in this case, regarding arms). Sure, I cant be sure, but it can be argued.

Being from Texas could also give hints in order to determine what sort of political thinking you will have.

So, there you go, simple assumptions, nothing personal and, more importantly, no personal attacks.

You are not right and Im not wrong, we simply disagree.
 
Lonewulf said:
I'm sorry, but do you have any evidence at all that the situation you described has ever happened? Ever?
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I'm talking about a novel situation where the suicidal killer knows some students may be armed. There have been cases where a murderer has tried to blend in with an excited crowd. As far as I know, they had targeted a signle person and then tried to escape. Things are different if the killer is only interested in killing many students. People in this school would be confused and scared, and a killer could pretend to be just another scared dude running from the "real killer". Add to that mix some armed students with their guns drawn. Almost nobody knows who is the real killer until it's too late.

Accomplices could create extreme chaos, especially if a number of armed students are stalking the halls looking for the real killer. If the cops storm that situation, they are going to have to treat every single student with a gun as if they are the killer - no matter what that student tells them.

If cops enter a building because of a shooting and there are other armed students (innocent) and even the possibility of a hidden accomplice... I don't know how they could control things. Others here probably know about standard LE tactics for that situation.
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
mm like what happened with my argument (my comments "against" you are not arguments, just mere annotations), you didnt get it. I will have to explain.
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I did get it, both times. You simply can't fathom someone thinking about a subject differently than you and lash out when they do (you didn't even attempt to "explain" the other time you claim I "didn't get it"). You're a racist and a xenophobe.
 
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The Central Scrutinizer said:
Rock Music. Video Games. Kelloggs.

And stop trying to blame the shooter! It's un-American!
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Man, how did I forget video games?

But Kelloggs? Don't you mean Twinkies?

I also need to add lack of national health insurance:
jimlintott said:
I just read the amok article. Very interesting. I wonder if there is a connection with ease of access to medical care and the number of events? It is suggested in the article that one of the first steps to prevention is identifying these people who are mentally ill. The family doctor is at the front line here. If you live in a place where it is expensive and, or access to medical care is limited you might get more of these events. If the U.S. had socialized medicine might these events decline? Is this maybe a reason why there is the disparity between the U.S. and Canada when it comes to these things?

I am just guessing so I would like to hear some other ideas.

I doubt it is that simple but sometimes it is easy to overlook the obvious.
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And from SFN we have:

How about:

* The shooters parents
* Drugs
* The shooters boyfriend/girlfriend
* The shooters potential boyfriend/girlfriend
* The education system
* Engrams

I will have to ask what the last one means.

I'll give the forums 24 hours and compose a revised list.
 
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Tony said:
I did get it, both times. You simply can't fathom someone thinking about a subject differently than you and lash out when they do (you didn't even attempt to "explain" the other time you claim I "didn't get it"). You're a racist and a xenophobe.
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Lets see. Im stupid, racist and xenophobe? Amazing.

I hope you will forgive me if I continue to guess, based on your charming reactions. You are old, more than 60? verbally agressive. What else, you consider yourself a patriot, and you tend to put labels to easy... maybe you were a militar?

Does this counts towards the million? I might apply.
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
Lets see. Im stupid, racist and xenophobe? Amazing.
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Now look who doesn't get it. I never said you were stupid.

I hope you will forgive me if I continue to guess, based on your charming reactions. You are old, more than 60? verbally agressive. What else, you consider yourself a patriot, and you tend to put labels to easy... maybe you were a militar?
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LOL. Sweet irony. You couldn't be more wrong. Do you always make this much of an ass out of yourself when your arguments are destroyed?
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
Lets see. Im stupid, racist and xenophobe? Amazing.

I hope you will forgive me if I continue to guess, based on your charming reactions. You are old, more than 60? verbally agressive. What else, you consider yourself a patriot, and you tend to put labels to easy... maybe you were a militar?

Does this counts towards the million? I might apply.
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Your statements have consistently been rude and prejudicial.

If I were to make an assumption given your name, I would say you desperately need to work on Right Speech. But I don't go around making rude assumptions about people, unlike someone in this thread...
 
Mephisto said:
Off-duty police officers also have an advantage in that they are trained for confrontations such as this. One other advantage is that they also carry a badge and might also be recognized by officers responding to the violence.

I can't imagine the threat an average citizen would put himself in after neutralizing an armed threat after a violent assault. Even if you are the good samaritan, just imagine how close to death you would be standing over two or more bloody bodies with a firearm in your hand when the police show up.
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Very good points. I distrust any sense of objectivity I think I may have regarding this. I guess that's because the whole point of "putting myself in anothers' shoes" is an exercise in subjectivity but from another’s point of view. Anyway, too used to running toward the gunfire, I think. You know, confronting and even actively seeking out situations that normal human nature tells us to run away from. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman wrote of this somewhere. On Killing or maybe in a speech. He speaks of Cops being a small percentage of the "one percenters", as the original outlaw bikers were dubbed. His theory, roughly outlined, is that many Cops, at least the ones that are good at it, have many sociopathic tendencies but choose to align themselves on the side of justice (or what society happens to call justice at a given time). He also speaks of a society being divided between Sheep, Shepherds and Wolves which is nice and ego-inflating (if you happen to be a shepherd) but a little trite and corny for this forum, I believe.
 
skeptigirl said:
I'll add it to the list, along mental health care issues.

So far we have the blame going to
  • abortion (parent of a Columbine victim)
  • the ban on school prayer (multiple sites)
  • gun control
  • no gun control
  • homosexuals (Phelps' usual rant)
  • evil (for whatever reason God doesn't interfere)
  • God (for reasons unknown, not punishment as claimed by Phelps, et al., and because obviously he controls these things)
  • the university for not warning people and/or closing the campus down
  • the police for not assuming a murder in a dorm meant a madman was possibly on his way to a shooting rampage
  • Bush
  • society
  • lack of mental health care for various reasons (can't force it on someone, not available, no one took action to help shooter get it)

Did I leave anything/one out?

Oh yeah, the shooter.
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Has nobody mentioned blaming immigration yet? I mean, the guy had a green card! It's only a matter of time before someone out there puts the two together.
 
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