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Debate! What debate?

It all comes down to how much molten steel was formed. Until we can agree on an amount or range, it's pointless to speculate on this.

What is generally agreed is that there were no huge pools or even medium sized pools of molten steel. What is being discussed are micron sized droplets.

At least now you folks say there was molten steel, because I'm pretty sure I could come over here months ago and read you guys making fun of CTists saying there was.

And rightly so. We were being told, and even shown doctored photos, that there were pools of molten steel. The idea was this was somehow evidence of CD. How? I have no idea.

Now there is evidence of tiny steel particles and while they have some interest, it is a ho-hum situation. There would also likely be radioactive materials in the debris somwhere as well. Does this mean "OMG!!!! MINNI NOOOKS!", no it merely means that among the things in the tower were some radioactive samples or lots of smoke detectors.

You are talking about two different worlds of quantities, and the existance of one does justify the mad specualtion of the other.
 
I must let Apollo20 continue this discussion when he wants to, but just let me say I have seen a 100 barrel oil tank on the farm burst in to blue flame and melt. After it was emptied by Ashland oil company one day and the
bottom of the tank exposed to oxygen.
Apollo20 will have to take the conversation form here on I respectfully bow out because I as I said I am not a Scientist.
I just always thought this an abnormality, I am confident that science will prevail where ever it leads.
 
I must let Apollo20 continue this discussion when he wants to, but just let me say I have seen a 100 barrel oil tank on the farm burst in to blue flame and melt. After it was emptied by Ashland oil company one day and the
bottom of the tank exposed to oxygen.
Apollo20 will have to take the conversation form here on I respectfully bow out because I as I said I am not a Scientist.
I just always thought this an abnormality, I am confident that science will prevail where ever it leads.
While working on a car once I accidentally dropped a wrench, and it fell right on the battery terminals and melted in half within a second or two. Could the iron sphericals been formed through electrical arcing?
 
While working on a car once I accidentally dropped a wrench, and it fell right on the battery terminals and melted in half within a second or two. Could the iron sphericals been formed through electrical arcing?

Yes but you have to have a source for the arcing, and I have found none that match the amount of the material produced. Actually your wrench being high carbon steel would be an excellent source for them but they would not contain zinc.
It would take a very large amount of electrical arcing to produce the particles. Also most of the electrical arcing in the twin towers involved Aluminum and Copper not steel.

I really need to let a Scientist take it from here, I am sure that we will all hear about Dr. Greening's research when he wishes us to.
 
I'm not sure I understand why the spherical particles had to have been produced before the collapse, or even, as Gravy suggests, to have come from the towers themselves.
The samples we're talking about were mostly indoors, some fairly far from the WTC, so they probably didn't come from the fires within the piles.
 
If you will check Gravy has chastised me once or twice about possible aluminum iron oxide reactions. He did not understand what I was referring to though, and I did not wish to argue again.
I took issue with your idea that vibrations from WTC machinery may have incited thermite reactions between molten aluminum and WTC steel. I believe I did understand what you were talking about. C'mon: you'd be a lot less fun as "Sane Chainsaw." :D

I enjoy hearing about your experiments and hope you aren't still seeing spots. (cue Thomas Dolby music) "Aah! I blinded me with science!"
 
Yes Gravy I believe that was your objection, But I was just looking for the source of the particles in the air samples.

Frank I am sure will have some thing interesting to tell us when he is ready.
I am not fully aware of all of it, but I do understand some of the science but only a little, mostly what I know is a result of being born in the wrong place at the right time to witness a lot of it and be interested enough to explore the cause of the events that I witnessed.
My eyes are a lot better but still some very small minuscule dark spots. They will probably be with me for life. The cost of knowledge. I do not really notice them much anymore.
Lets hope no one ever thinks that I am sane.
That would indeed be a tragedy.
 
It all comes down to how much molten steel was formed. Until we can agree on an amount or range, it's pointless to speculate on this. At least now you folks say there was molten steel, because I'm pretty sure I could come over here months ago and read you guys making fun of CTists saying there was.

That doesn't say much though.

But anyway, I don't feel I had a proper response. Can Steel melt at 1300 degrees Celsius or not? Pardon my ignorance, I though that it couldn't.
According to ATSlab's studies yes. Also mentioned in this link.
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html
http://www.atslab.com/fire/PDF/MeltedSteel.pdf
One of the wire ends exhibited a ferrite microstructure with oxidation on the top surface and incipient melting at the grain boundaries. This particular wire end had attained temperatures of between 2100°F [1148 °C] and 2200°F [1204 °C]. This wire end had, in fact, just begun to melt, which is what we would expect if there was melting further down the wire.



Another statement by Jefferson labs states Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F). http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html
 
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The fires themselves are way to cool to have produce these. Under the NIST conclusions.
I don't know how you can say that with so little information. NIST didn't address the question of spherical iron particles in the dust. Other reports say those particles are to be expected. There may well be conditions that would produce the particles without invalidating NIST's conclusions. It seems to me that much more study would be needed to reach any conclusions about this issue.
 
I don't know how you can say that with so little information. NIST didn't address the question of spherical iron particles in the dust. Other reports say those particles are to be expected. There may well be conditions that would produce the particles without invalidating NIST's conclusions. It seems to me that much more study would be needed to reach any conclusions about this issue.

The fire test data is what throws Nist off, although I agree that fires did cause them Nist reported fire models are simply 400c to low to do it. That means that the models are off by 400c and they were not caused in a hydrocarbon fire.
Most of the reports also were made when the Chimney-jet burner effect or the Aluminum burning effect was the current theory of the fires intensity. Nist back away from those theories. However the reports were not modified to take in the change in temperature drop when the Chimney effect was abandoned, in the twin towers, the reports were not modified to reflect real world conditions, as by NIST data.
Except in the part of the production of the molten material dripping from the towers in a chimney effect in the air handling system.
There is however not enough galvanized steel in the air handling system to account for them.
It is a real mystery, and Dr. Greening hopes to solve it, and the reason the concrete was so easy to break I believe.

I simply see a mystery here that Nist left unsolved, and am looking for reasonable answer to it, if you read the physorg discussion Dr. Greening was in contact with the scientist, who produced the reports they described a fuel layer.
I have contacted a witness who because of the truthers does not want his name used publicly and he described a strange blue flame coming from lifted pieces of concrete at the site.
I do not know what the researchers told Dr. Greening but the blue flame is indicative of possible, but not conclusive sulfur reactions.
I would prefer to let Dr. Greening take it from here when he wishes, I do not presume or do I wish to talk for him.
One thing I should point out, is there is no aluminum oxide in the samples that I can see associated with the iron and zinc so it is not a thermate-thermite reaction.
Although a natural aluminum reaction Could produce steel hot enough to degass carbon the particles do not appear to be the result of a direct thermate reaction.
 
I guess what I am wondering, based on the sensed attitude in many of apollo20's posts, is...

Dr. Greening, do you feel that the NIST scientists INTENTIONALLY left areas untouched, unresearched, in order to provide a cover for the USG who orchestrated the 9/11 attacks?

OR

Dr. Greening, do you feel that the NIST scientists left areas unresearched, uninvestigated, because they were sloppy, or underfunded, or not required to?

If neither of the two options above fit, could I ask you simply,

Do you think there were areas of the WTC collapses INTENTIONALLY not addressed by NIST? If so, care to speculate on why they would not address said areas?

and in case you bring it up, I know that your opinion on these things may not be relevent to the science etc...I am just curious.

TAM:)
 
The USGS "particle atlas" gives some XRF spectra of iron spheres. Sorry I don't have a url but the site is not hard to find

Thanks.

I notice that there are two listed sources of Fe "spheres" one of which (noted as Iron 4) does contain a number of other elements including a reasonable amount of sulphur.

The other (Iron 3) is indeed sulphur free, however this does not mean it is pure iron. I note:

It is often difficult to distinguish between metals and metal oxides with qualitative EDS because of adsorbed surface oxygen or thin coatings of oxide phases such as rust. It is impossible to distinguish metals and metal-oxides with qualitative EDS analysis using a Be window x-ray detector.

Basically they are saying here that there is no way, with the techniques used, that they could determine the difference between the metal and the metal oxide. Since the X-Ray analysis shows up a major peak in the O region, this means that either they had sphericals which were O impregnated after formation, or the spherical was formed from an oxide (rust) initially. With maintenance reports indicating that indeed they were having rust problems, could this be a possible source of the sphericals?

I'd also note Crazy's post here:

Frank I would not expect them to, when I did the sulfate tests, I got iron oxide, and So2 if the iron oxide dropped into aluminum it would produce the particles but you would also have an association with Aluminum oxide.

Could this also be a source of iron oxide sphericals?

Either way, and with many other sources of iron in the towers other then the support structure itself, I feel any assumptions that "they were relatively pure iron" and that the iron was from the structural steel are just that, unsupported assumptions.

On the zinc, again we can't tell from the USGS site information the difference between Zinc and Zinc Oxide. It was mentioned eariler in this thread that the structural steel of the outer coloums were coated with Zinc Oxide, so it would seem very reasonable that there were high amounts of zinc detected as well, though I'm not sure as to your problem with the Fe/Zn ratios, you might have to explain this further.

I'd note that none of the 4 Fe species listed in the USGS tables contains any Zn, and though Iron 2 and Iron 4 would cetainly appear to be structural in origin due to the level of manganese in it. Iron 3, which is the "pure" sphere, contains no other trace metals. (chemical metals not astonomical ones. ;))
 
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Has anyone explained why these micron sized particles could not have been generated by friction during steel on hard surface impacts? This has not been explained away as a possibility far as I have seen. Even though it was brought up several times.

Of course a good question, heat is also energy, although of the highest entropy, but I'm sure there are people out who have experience with that and can tell that. Since the particles are perfectly spherical like you drop a piece of tin in the air the mechanism will be a very difficult one... Maybe Apollo/RMackey could answer this question
 
Well, well...

He said he was taking to the road indicating travel, I believe he is going looking for actual samples of the evidence for confirmation of his Ideas.

He has this Horrible habit of wanting confirmation, and having his Ideas peer reviewed and published in respected Journals.

I think it will be a waste of time though, as only one side will ever read a peer reviewed paper published in a respected Journal.

The rest will just rely on INTERNET websites like the scholars, or Alex Jones for their science incites.
 
He said he was taking to the road indicating travel, I believe he is going looking for actual samples of the evidence for confirmation of his Ideas.

He has this Horrible habit of wanting confirmation, and having his Ideas peer reviewed and published in respected Journals.

I think it will be a waste of time though, as only one side will ever read a peer reviewed paper published in a respected Journal.

The rest will just rely on INTERNET websites like the scholars, or Alex Jones for their science incites.

I really hope he does. Indeed, the internet is the last place to look for valid scientific methods or discoveries. If he has ideas, evidence and expertise, the last place he should be is on the internet.
 
I really hope he does. Indeed, the internet is the last place to look for valid scientific methods or discoveries. If he has ideas, evidence and expertise, the last place he should be is on the internet.

The INTERNET can offer you one thing though inspiration and exposure to new ideas outside ones own experience, that is valuable, in offering inspiration and incite.
I think that was what Frank was looking for on Physorg, and on Jerf, I wish him success in his work.

PS. the INTERNET did not create the non Logical universe of the Conspiracy-truth movement, it just exposed it.
 
The fire test data is what throws Nist off, although I agree that fires did cause them Nist reported fire models are simply 400c to low to do it. That means that the models are off by 400c and they were not caused in a hydrocarbon fire.

"Throws NIST off?" You don't even know where the particles come from, but you claim that their existence invalidates a major part of NIST's report about WTC 1 & 2.

That's flawed logic.
 

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