Debate! What debate?

[TruthSeeker1234]

I have an hypothesis of my own. A social science hypothesis.

I hypothesize that Frank Greening just commited suicide. Not actual suicide, but 9/11 research suicide. I hypothesize that he did so following a bout with his conscience. He knows that his "crush-down then crush-up" theory of "collapse" is based on provably false initial assumptions. After our extensive email dialog, he knows that even a layperson such as myself can easily demonstrate the errors.

He may or may not know the full truth about the demolitions, but he knows perfectly well the official story is pure BS. What he'd like to do come out and say so, but he can't. So he does the next best thing, he sticks a mortal dagger into his own gravity collapse theory, and exits stage left.

 

[Horatius]

So, I did make a few extra comments!

But now, as promised, I retire for good.

I hope you don't actually retire for good. It's an interesting, and more important, new theory. It gets old going over the same ground all the time.

I like this theory, in that it actually avoids one of the hardest parts of the explosive or thermite theories, which is, how was the material applied without anyone noticing? You've actually come up with an answer that's not automatically implausible.

Of course, there are other issues which could be addressed, but I'll wait to see if you've really retired for good before getting more into it.

In any case, thank you for putting forward your hypothesis. It was a very good read, at the least.

 

[Horatius]

I have an hypothesis of my own. A social science hypothesis.

I hypothesize that Frank Greening just commited suicide.

Of course, we still haven't established that Apollo20 is Dr. Greening.

And you're just jealous because his theory makes more sense than yours.

 

[T.A.M.]

I have an hypothesis of my own. A social science hypothesis.

I hypothesize that Frank Greening just commited suicide. Not actual suicide, but 9/11 research suicide. I hypothesize that he did so following a bout with his conscience. He knows that his "crush-down then crush-up" theory of "collapse" is based on provably false initial assumptions. After our extensive email dialog, he knows that even a layperson such as myself can easily demonstrate the errors.

He may or may not know the full truth about the demolitions, but he knows perfectly well the official story is pure BS. What he'd like to do come out and say so, but he can't. So he does the next best thing, he sticks a mortal dagger into his own gravity collapse theory, and exits stage left.

You are likely wrong. I think he was making an anaology to just how easy it is to come up with a "Theory" like "Thermite", and make it look provable through "Science". He did refer to Jone's and Wood's theories as "scripts" like his.

TAM

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

You are likely wrong. I think he was making an anaology to just how easy it is to come up with a "Theory" like "Thermite", and make it look provable through "Science". He did refer to Jone's and Wood's theories as "scripts" like his.

TAM

You could be right. Perhaps Greening's gig is to just offer as many competing theories as possible, to create as much reasonable doubt as possible. It was Greening who first came out with the "spontaneous thermite" idea. I don't think his AP idea is very workable to explain the observations below the fire areas. What would ignite it down there? And how would you control the timing?

It will be interesting to see if some truthers take the bait and run with it.

Micronukes and/or directed energy still seem more able to account for the data.

 

[apathoid]

This thread reads like a bad Twilight Zone script.
Apparently, we are now going to be left alone wondering if Apollo's theory is only a movie script theory ... rolleyes:

And it's not surprising that Ace believes Dr. Greening is now a whistleblower and a troofer.

 

[OMGturt1es]

He knows that his "crush-down then crush-up" theory of "collapse" is based on provably false initial assumptions. After our extensive email dialog, he knows that even a layperson such as myself can easily demonstrate the errors.

really? that's pretty amazing.

can you demonstrate the errors, please?

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Currently it seems that you're doing a comdey routine, though starting out, it was impossible to tell. Remember we have Truthseaker here and he keeps trying to tell us, with a completely straight face, that there weren't any planes and massive satelites fired building vapourising beams that made all the steel vanish. If your comedy is more real than that (and frankly declaring that it was all done by the Queen of Hearts and her guardsmen led by Tweedledum and Tweedledee, supervised by the White Rabbit and the Jabawoky, would make more sense) then you need to label it as such or we'll take you as being serious.

"Oh, ho, ho, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a, a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was tired of being stared at.

C.D. Bales (Steve Martin), Roxanne (1987).

 

[beachnut]

Thus I would say that the GREAT 9/11 DEBATE, if there ever was one, was over before it began.

“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”

Paul Simon, The Boxer.

I am just a poor boy.
Though my story's seldom told,
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest...

Lie-la-lie... Lie-la-lie... Lie-la-lie...

 

[beachnut]

Ammonium perchlorate, NH4ClO4, is a colorless, odorless, compound that is stable at room temperature. However, when heated to above 300 °C, or subjected to friction or impact, it becomes violently reactive. In fact, ammonium perchlorate is a much-used ingredient in explosives, pyrothechnics and solid propellants such as those used in the space shuttle booster rockets.

The decomposition reactions of ammonium perchlorate are complex and variable: Cl2, HCl, NH3, N2O, NO, N2, H2O and O2 have been consistently observed as major products. The decomposition reaction is highly exothermic, releasing about 2 MJ/kg of heat energy, and is accompanied by the production of about 800 liters/kg of gases. The combustion of ammonium perchlorate in oxygen-rich atmospheres produces a diffusion flame at about 3200 °C

1. The Twin Towers were Primed with AP:

2. Boeing 767 Aircraft Strike the Towers and Start Fires

Just a movie script (like Jones' script; like Wood's script).

Please don't ask me to defend a movie script/theory.........

That would have set off the whole building at impact. Do not let Chris add this to his concrete core.

 

[Gravy]

What dolt would do this?. Is this why the WTC blew up in that fire, way back when?

But then the whole building would have burned and fell on impact.

Bad script, no go. Kind of dumb too.

Well, he kept the plot alive by mentioning the upgrading of some insulation in the 1990's.

That said, if anyone feels that it's time for Henry's bottom, click below.

 

[Pardalis]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/8790460c8f550dc00.jpg

Ah... Nice to see some of us are still using film stock for their personal pictures.

 

[Z]

Couple of problems.

1) Ammonium perchlorate in most compounds does lose potency over time. You might have something if the towers had been built in, say, '98 or so... not in the late '60s. That's the biggest problem with MOST 'constructed with explosives' theories - combustibles just never last that long.
2) If it explosively combusts at a mere 300 degrees or so, there have been several occasions that huge explosions would have happened. It's not like the entire interior structure, every beam, every electrical wire, etc., is carefully thermally controlled. Hell, electrical wiring can occasionally spike to temperatures that high. Lightning could have set off this stuff. Workers with power drills. You name it.

That's just my main problems with it.

On the other hand, there is always a good chance that insulations or something that were used changed chemical properties when exposed to jet fuel at high temperatures... I have no idea what to look for there, but I know in at least one situation I've been in, chemical interactions between JP-8 fuel fumes and the exact insulation used inside a particular service bay in Oklahoma led to the insulation becoming mildly acidic. A few days after we switched from ordinary deisel, the insulation slumped onto the concrete off of the walls - the staples holding them up had corroded. There were also reports of headaches and allergic reactions among the mechanics.

Turns out the fumes were interacting rather nastily with the insulation that was being used.

So I'm wondering...

 

[beachnut]

I HAVE addressed the issue of sudden on-set of collapse! (See post # 49). At some arbitrary moment in time WTC 1 was intact, by which I mean it was not falling over or down, 2 seconds later the upper section had dropped about 28 meters. I call that sudden on-set of collapse. What do you call it?

Gravity? So? What does this mean?

The jumper was standing. Oops, the jumper jumped. Sudden on-set of jumping. Who would know.

I would not call WTC1 or 2 intact after experience 1300 and 2200 pounds of TNT impact energy. I call the assumption, or pre condition not to be intact. I would call it extreme damage. Considering the energy impact alone is more energy needed to cut most if not all of the steel columns. Plus you could see the bowing of the buildings before they fell.

I have to agree for the most on 9/11, yes there was a sudden onset of fall. Yes, one second they are not falling, then in a few seconds the structure fell. But not from an intact condition.

 

[anor277]

A. W. Smith:

"If you took everything from the above list. and not knowing how much of each by volume or weight was in a fire. how would you conclude what chemicals in dust and air samples came from where?"

Well, exactly!

That's why AP in the thermal insulation is the perfect crime....

Can we test for the presence of ammonium perchlorate in the remaining residue? In other words is there possible evidence that can demonstrate the absence of ammonium perchlorate? What is proposed as the reducing agent in the putative ammonium perchlorate reaction?

 

[beachnut]

Well, he kept the plot alive by mentioning the upgrading of some insulation in the 1990's.

That said, if anyone feels that it's time for Henry's bottom, click below.

I was trying to read all of it (the thread) but I have failed it is time for... Plus I had to change my post to reflect my failure to grasp what has happen to my mind after "All lies and jest", Lie-la-lie... (what da heck happen here)?

 

[beachnut]

Can we test for the presence of ammonium perchlorate in the remaining residue? In other words is there possible evidence that can demonstrate the absence of ammonium perchlorate?

The proof against AP is the fact the building did not rise several stories as it fell, or takeoff like the space shuttle.

 

[Gravy]

The proof against AP is the fact the building did not rise several stories as it fell, or takeoff like the space shuttle.

It's nice to see that some people are blissfully unaware of the work of Ms. Judy Wood.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Putting aside any assumptions about Apollo20's motivations here and simply addressing the conspiracy theory, it seems to me to be as seriously flawed as CD and energy beams from space. I can see two big, glaring, drive-a-bus-through-them holes in the plot at a fairly cursory investigation.

1. The fireproofing on the floor trusses was IIRC applied during building of the towers and so has been there since 1964. This means that in 1964 the former members of the conspiracy foresaw that a time would come when they would want to destroy the towers, and that, for 37 years, knowledge of this design feature was preserved and passed on ready for use at the appropriate time, without the secret being leaked. That's the sort of conspiracy theory I wouldn't expect to see outside a film script or a David Icke interview.

2. More pertinently, why didn't the WTC1 fire set off the AP?

Dave

 

[Horatius]

Well, he kept the plot alive by mentioning the upgrading of some insulation in the 1990's.

1. The fireproofing on the floor trusses was IIRC applied during building of the towers and so has been there since 1964.


Dave

But that's the brilliance of this plan! He did account for the time factor, and by utilizing a building upgrade that we know actually occured. A hide-in-plain-sight kind of thing. Brilliant. Still totally wrong for other reasons, but much less wrong than all the other CD ideas.

I think I might go over to the Dark Side just for this theory!


Think about it - now we have an actual lead on who we should be interrogating - all the company employees who installed the new "insulation" (should that be "exploation"??). Somebody call the NYPD, quick! We don't even need to tell them we suspect sabotage! Just tell them that a scientific study leads us to suspect "irregularities" in their work may have "contributed" to the "collapse", in a manner that might be criminally negligent, and let them do the rest!

"Never do for yourself what you can trick an expert into doing for you"
-Miles Naismith Vorkosigan