Couterpunch's article: What did Israel know about 9/11

[busherie]

i'm afraid on this forum, people use irony, cynism, and jokes more than their logic.

I'm disapointed. Things have changed

 

[Loss Leader]

That these spies were acting strangely

(Bolding mine.)

Bye bye, Busherie. Enjoy your klan rallies.

 

[Pardalis]

That these spies were acting strangely (waving a lighter like in a concert, according to the photo the FBI later developped, but again, read the article)

BTW, do you have direct evidence of this?

It's not in the article, and the I've only found sources that infer what the FBI saw in the pictures they seized. Is there a direct source that confirms this? I find this odd that people would know the contents of pictures the FBI have in their possession.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Busherie,
I suspect that many have read the article, as a number have evidenced above. It's just a re-hashing of the old Ketcham "expose" (which has been disproved, but which he'll hang onto forever) on the art students and the ABC News and Fox News stories.
What we've seen is that he repeatedly offers speculation and assumption as fact. What you see is carved-in-marble TRUTH.

One pertinent example. A question which anyone with half-a-brain should ask... Why were these veteran Mossad agents so STUPID as to position themselves in an open public park with a view of the towers when there were thousands of buildings in which they could have rented a space with a view and set-up professional cameras and equipment.... and EVEN STUPIDER to be seen by witnesses celebrating? My speculation would tend towards the fact that they were a bunch of immigrant workers who saw something that they assumed would garner sympathy for Israel. Ketcham's conclusion was that they were celebrating the brilliance of their own Mossad intelligence-gathering ability. This is absurd, as are many of his stupid conclusions on the art students - i.e. that one of them had served in the military from the ages of 18 to 21. Whoa! In a country where military duty is mandatory? This guy served in the military! That clinches it for me!

 

[busherie]

BTW, do you have direct evidence of this?

It's not in the article, and the I've only found sources that infer what the FBI saw in the pictures they seized. Is there a direct source that confirms this? I find this odd that people would know the contents of pictures the FBI have in their possession.

I screwed up there. I couldn't find the source. I read it somewhere. I apologize I haven't serious on this. I'll let you know when I find it.

Busherie,
I suspect that many have read the article, as a number have evidenced above. It's just a re-hashing of the old Ketcham "expose" (which has been disproved, but which he'll hang onto forever) on the art students and the ABC News and Fox News stories.
What we've seen is that he repeatedly offers speculation and assumption as fact. What you see is carved-in-marble TRUTH.

One pertinent example. A question which anyone with half-a-brain should ask... Why were these veteran Mossad agents so STUPID as to position themselves in an open public park with a view of the towers when there were thousands of buildings in which they could have rented a space with a view and set-up professional cameras and equipment.... and EVEN STUPIDER to be seen by witnesses celebrating? My speculation would tend towards the fact that they were a bunch of immigrant workers who saw something that they assumed would garner sympathy for Israel. Ketcham's conclusion was that they were celebrating the brilliance of their own Mossad intelligence-gathering ability. This is absurd, as are many of his stupid conclusions on the art students - i.e. that one of them had served in the military from the ages of 18 to 21. Whoa! In a country where military duty is mandatory? This guy served in the military! That clinches it for me!

I agree you raise a logical question. Maybe they screwed up. But do you explain this quote of Ketcham's article:

"However, what was "absolutely certain", according to Vincent Cannistraro, was that the five Israelis formed part of a surveillance network in the New York- New Jersey area. The network's purpose was to track radical Islamic extremists and/or supporters of militant Palestinian groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The former CIA counterterrorism officer who spoke anonymously told me that FBI investigators determined that the suspect Israelis were serving as Arabic-speaking linguists "running technical operations" in northern New Jersey's extensive Muslim communities. The former CIA officer said the operations included taps on telephones, placement of microphones in rooms and mobile surveillance. The source at ABC News agreed: "Our conclusion was that they were Arab linguists involved in monitoring operations, i.e., electronic surveillance. People at FBI concur with this". The ABC News source added, "What we heard was that the Israelis may have picked up chatter that something was going to happen on the morning of 9/11"."

 

[Foolmewunz]

I screwed up there. I couldn't find the source. I read it somewhere. I apologize I haven't serious on this. I'll let you know when I find it.




I agree you raise a logical question. Maybe they screwed up. But do you explain this quote of Ketcham's article:

"However, what was "absolutely certain", according to Vincent Cannistraro, was that the five Israelis formed part of a surveillance network in the New York- New Jersey area. The network's purpose was to track radical Islamic extremists and/or supporters of militant Palestinian groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The former CIA counterterrorism officer who spoke anonymously told me that FBI investigators determined that the suspect Israelis were serving as Arabic-speaking linguists "running technical operations" in northern New Jersey's extensive Muslim communities. The former CIA officer said the operations included taps on telephones, placement of microphones in rooms and mobile surveillance. The source at ABC News agreed: "Our conclusion was that they were Arab linguists involved in monitoring operations, i.e., electronic surveillance. People at FBI concur with this". The ABC News source added, "What we heard was that the Israelis may have picked up chatter that something was going to happen on the morning of 9/11"."

Busherie,
Bolding mine. Look again at the statement. Surely he's not quoting Cannistraro, and then in your next sentence, saying that he spoke anonymously?

Once again only in Raimondo's article and the one in your OP (all but a rehash of Raimondo, anyway) do you find any variation of the above, with Cannistraro saying that there was a certainty that they were Israeli agents.

As with eighty per cent of Ketcham's article, he is quoting un-named sources, or sources that spoke in confidence, and we're supposed to believe him? Then he throws in a name here and there, and by mixing them up, the readers wind up believing that all the quotes are from the same source. Why would Cannistraro speak "on the record" and then ask to be anonymous? Makes no sense from where I sit.


Here's what I was able to find from the original ABC News report.... Note how different Cannistraro's statements are below versus what Ketcham and Raimondo are attributing to him. (With no links to their source material, as usual.) Bolding mine.

Published on Saturday, June 22, 2002 by ABC News
The White Van
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?

<<<snip>>>


Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS, said federal authorities' interest in the case was heightened when some of the men's names were found in a search of a national intelligence database.

<<<snip>>>

According to Cannistraro, many people in the U.S. intelligence community believed that some of the men arrested were working for Israeli intelligence. Cannistraro said there was speculation as to whether Urban Moving had been "set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists in the area, particularly in the New Jersey-New York area

<<<snip>>>

 

[MaGZ]

Other than Raimondo's fertile imagination, please cite the source for the bolded part. They were never spying on the hijackers, they lived near the Mail Boxes Are Us (or whatever it was called), not the hijackers, and they were kids.... Would mossad send a bunch of lower-twenty-somethings to track dangerous jihadists? Not likely.

The feds in the USA had the same findings as the feds in Canada. Their crime was shucking bad art by appealing for sympathy, as hard-working and dedicated students trying to get by.

The local agents of the FBI believed the Israeli Art Students (Mossad) were monitoring the hijackers. This is why they gave this story to Carl Cameron at Fox News.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm

Investigators from numerous government agencies are part of a working group that's been compiling evidence since the mid '90s. These documents detail hundreds of incidents in cities and towns across the country that investigators say, "may well be an organized intelligence gathering activity."

The first part of the investigation focuses on Israelis who say they are art students from the University of Jerusalem and Bazala Academy. They repeatedly made contact with U.S. government personnel, the report says, by saying they wanted to sell cheap art or handiwork.

Documents say they, "targeted and penetrated military bases." The DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, and even secret offices and unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel. The majority of those questioned, "stated they served in military intelligence, electronic surveillance intercept and or explosive ordinance units."

Another part of the investigation has resulted in the detention and arrests of dozens of Israelis at American mall kiosks, where they've been selling toys called Puzzle Car and Zoom Copter. Investigators suspect a front.

Shortly after The New York Times and Washington Post reported the Israeli detentions last months, the carts began vanishing. Zoom Copter's Web page says, "We are aware of the situation caused by thousands of mall carts being closed at the last minute. This in no way reflects the quality of the toy or its salability. The problem lies in the operators' business policies."

Why would Israelis spy in and on the U.S.? A general accounting office investigation referred to Israel as country A and said, "According to a U.S. intelligence agency, the government of country A conducts the most aggressive espionage operations against the U.S. of any U.S. ally."

A defense intelligence report said Israel has a voracious appetite for information and said, "the Israelis are motivated by strong survival instincts which dictate every possible facet of their political and economical policies. It aggressively collects military and industrial technology and the U.S. is a high priority target."

The document concludes: "Israel possesses the resources and technical capability to achieve its collection objectives."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

A spokesman for the Israeli embassy here in Washington issued a denial saying that any suggestion that Israelis are spying in or on the U.S. is "simply not true." There are other things to consider. And in the days ahead, we'll take a look at the U.S. phone system and law enforcement's methods for wiretaps. And an investigation that both have been compromised by our friends overseas.

HUME: Carl, what about this question of advanced knowledge of what was going to happen on 9-11? How clear are investigators that some Israeli agents may have known something?

CAMERON: It's very explosive information, obviously, and there's a great deal of evidence that they say they have collected — none of it necessarily conclusive. It's more when they put it all together. A bigger question, they say, is how could they not have know? Almost a direct quote.

HUME: Going into the fact that they were spying on some Arabs, right?

CAMERON: Correct.

 

[Thunder]

the mossad is no smarter then the CIA. if they knew...we knew.

 

[firecoins]

Actually, they were across a river and in another state. They were nowhere near the airport from which the planes took off, the flight path of the planes or their final destination. The towers were one hundred and ten stories tall; they were visible for miles and miles. Something on the order of ten million people were "close" to the WTC by your definition. I was. So was my mother. Where were you that day?

.

I agree with what your saying but these guys were 10 minutes from Newark Airport by car. Flight 93 took off from Newark airport.

Mossad agents would not celebrate the 9/11 attacks. This claim seems rather dubious to me. Intelligence agents of any country try to conceal their identity. They don't want attention.

 

[Loss Leader]

I agree with what your saying but these guys were 10 minutes from Newark Airport by car. Flight 93 took off from Newark airport.

Well, on a Tuesday morning at 9:00, ten minutes can take four hours but you're right that they were close to Newark. And the Shanksville flight did take off from Newark. However, the two WTC flights took off from Boston.
I meant that this so-called intelligence cell was nowhere near the originating airport. If they were tracking terrorists, they were terrible at it.

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Just addressing this one point: however, the fact that they were subsequently deported as illegal aliens (if I recall correctly), rather than prosecuted for terrorism or related offenses, clearly shows you that, after questioning them very extensively, the police no longer had any serious suspicions that they were connected in any way to the attacks.

Dave

Kind of like those folks that were planning to blow up planes flying from London to the US. Big story a few months ago. Bush still takes credit for foiling the plot. I think it had something to do with shampoo bottles.

Those guys got released, too. So I guess the Police were done with them.

Then there was the Bin Laden family living in the US...

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Well, on a Tuesday morning at 9:00, ten minutes can take four hours but you're right that they were close to Newark. And the Shanksville flight did take off from Newark. However, the two WTC flights took off from Boston.
I meant that this so-called intelligence cell was nowhere near the originating airport. If they were tracking terrorists, they were terrible at it.

Ummm, gee, maybe their were other cells?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Then there was the Bin Laden family living in the US...

Do you actually know anything about the history of that family? No guess not. Under your apparent ideas if your brother murders someone we better lock you up in the cell next to him right?

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Then there was the Bin Laden family living in the US...

Do you actually know anything about the history of that family? No guess not. Under your apparent ideas if your brother murders someone we better lock you up in the cell next to him right?

Puh-leeze.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Well if you don't think that all family members should be tarred with the same brush when one commits a crime, what was your point in bringing them up?

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Then there was the Bin Laden family living in the US...

Do you actually know anything about the history of that family? No guess not. Under your apparent ideas if your brother murders someone we better lock you up in the cell next to him right?

I know that one of the brothers was implicated in an illegal immigration ring in Orlando. But I don't know all there is to know about it.

But, if my brother killed 3000 people in an act of war, I would HOPE they would hold me for quite some time, and question the living hell out of me. They hold people without charges for years in Gitmo. So yes, I would expect to be held and questioned extensively.

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Especially if I lived in the same state that the accused hijackers were living in at the time. And I had been hanging out with some of them (this has been reported. I didn't personally see them together, so no, I can't prove it).

 

[PhantomWolf]

So yes, I would expect to be held and questioned extensively

They were, to the satisfaction of those questioning them. 24 of the 26 people on the plane were questioned by the FBI before they left. So now the only question is, how long is it pertinent to detain and question an innocent person. I think you'll find that at the time under US law they can hold you only up to 24 hours without charges. Or are you suggesting that their rights should have been thrown out just because they had the misfortune of being related to a member of a VAST family (he has something like 40 sibblings to various mothers) and one that had, had nothing to do with other members of the family for years.

 

[DavidJames]

I know that one of the brothers was implicated in an illegal immigration ring in Orlando. But I don't know all there is to know about it.

But, if my brother killed 3000 people in an act of war, I would HOPE they would hold me for quite some time, and question the living hell out of me. They hold people without charges for years in Gitmo. So yes, I would expect to be held and questioned extensively.

How do you feel about Dylan, Merc, Lyte, JDX, Killtown, DC and all the other Tin Hatters who claim to have evidence implicating the U.S. Government in the murder of 3000 people yet have never (to my knowledge) gone to the police, a DA, insurance investigator, a lawyer, anyone with the power to act on that evidence.

The brother in your scenario has nothing but a blood relationship to the suspect and you want him held "for quite some time" and question "the living hell" out of them.

How about it Mr. skepticalcriticalguy, how should those that claim to have evidence be treated. Before you say they can't go to the authorities because "they" are in on it, think about all the crackpots who manage to get a lawyer, or how about approaching an equivalent person in a foreign govt, Certainly not every policemen, lawyer, district attorney is in on it are they?

How about if someone murdered your mother, would you want those that claimed to have evidence present it to the authorities or would you perfer they make videos about the murder and sell them?

 

[Babbylonian]

But, if my brother killed 3000 people in an act of war, I would HOPE they would hold me for quite some time, and question the living hell out of me. They hold people without charges for years in Gitmo. So yes, I would expect to be held and questioned extensively.

Why? Once they're satisified that you're not in on your brother's crime (assuming you aren't), then why would they continue to hold you? Just to be able to say later that they did? I have a stepbrother whom I haven't seen in 5 years, and hadn't seen for almost 10 before that - if he blows up a building, how much questioning should I have to undergo before continuing on with my life?

As for your reference to Gitmo, the people are being held there under the excuse that they're enemy combatants (an argument about that would be another thread entirely). Is anyone related to Osama and company to be considered an enemy combatant? That would seem to be the logic you propose.