PS Audio Noise Harvester

[MortFurd]

Engineering school has brainwashed you pretty good. Your beliefs are very strong and nothing will change your mind. You don't even want to try the Harvester without putting a microphone to it, that's a serious problem. You people are not normal. Any normal person would already have bought a Harvester after reading the first 2 pages, you know you can try it for 30 days and then return it. That way you can make up your own mind.

Nobody should believe anything someone else says because it is flawed, even me. How can you know the truth about something if you don't enter inside?



It's pretty simple, buy a Harvester for only 100 bucks and hear for yourself. Then come back and laugh at the brainwashed engineers like all audiophiles already do.
Guess who are the ones wasting their time and missing out on better audio? They sit there all day with simple measurement devices, it's their "job". Then they enter forums and make meaningless posts trying to "convert" someone by telling what they hear isn't really there, and he doesn't even need to try it because he already knows everything about everything because the microphone tells him so. Who are people going to believe? It's pretty obvious.

240VAC, 50Hz would blow the noise harvester to hell. I don't think Mr. McGowan would give me my money back, then.

 

[MortFurd]

Is it because of some sort of delay time?

Nope.

The plots are a comparison of spectral content of a .wav and a .mp3 of the same music, carefully synchronized.

I'll post a plot of just the .wav later (I'm at work now.) That one gives away the story.

BTW:
The plots aren't averages, but rather representative plots from within the file.

 

[MRC_Hans]

The background noise audiophiles talk about isn't the noise from the system when no music is running through it...

That may be so, but that is the only kind of noise that gadgets like the NH have a chance of influencing. The NH just possibly might remove a bit of the noise from the power line, and that is the kind of noise you can listen for on a "silent channel". If you can't hear it on a silent channel, then it isn't there, period. It won't magically appear when you turn on the music.

There are other kinds of noise that are linked to the music, but they are, obviously, generated by components and/or functions in the signal path, and no external components will be able to influence them. .... Unless you believe in magic.

The background noise audiophiles talk about can't be heard until it is gone. It just sounds like the background is blacker and quieter, but you can't hear it in the first place. The reason for this is improved clarity of the sounds, it gives the illusion of a blacker background. If you remove AC noise from entering the system it makes the power supply work better which increases the resolution and clarity. It also reveals more low-level detail. That's why audiophiles call it blacker background.

Nonsense. Simply nonsense. You are trying to make a technical explanation, and you are not qualified for that, as you admit yourself. The result is pure technobabble.

Hans

 

[MortFurd]

That may be so, but that is the only kind of noise that gadgets like the NH have a chance of influencing. The NH just possibly might remove a bit of the noise from the power line, and that is the kind of noise you can listen for on a "silent channel". If you can't hear it on a silent channel, then it isn't there, period. It won't magically appear when you turn on the music.

Mr. McGowan is now claiming on the PSAudio forums that the noise would manifest itself as intermodulation distortion, and wouldn't necessarily be audible if there were no input signal.

The test Speco did would actually capture any IM crap, so Mr. McGowan's explanation is off the mark again.

Speco's test has a couple of short comings, but the audiophiles aren't sharp enough to catch them. Interestingly enough, they don't even argue the most obvious point:
The video is not clear enough to read the details of the plot, and the plot isn't on screen for all that long.

Instead of griping "you can't see a bleeping thing in the video," they start screaming that it couldn't show any results anyway.

Where does the myth come from that you can't measure audible differences?

 

[marting]

240VAC, 50Hz would blow the noise harvester to hell.

Unlikely.

 

[marting]

Where does the myth come from that you can't measure audible differences?

Good question. It would be relatively easy to create a CD (or higher sampling depth/rate DVDs) with stepped levels of injected noise of various types. Then we could quantify the "golden ears" some claim. However, showing how poor the ears would perform in comparison to available instrumentation would likely not be well accepted.

 

[MortFurd]

Unlikely.

The noise harvester is built for 110VAC. It might survive, but that depends greatly on the quality of parts used in the primary side. Outside of that, it wouldn't plug into the outlets here. Given the magical qualities attributed to plugs and connectors, I expect any test would be unacceptable (by the PS Audio crowd) if I ran it through adapters. Running it on a transformer would sort of defeat the purpose, too.

 

[MortFurd]

BTW:
Did anyone happen to notice if the noise harvester and other PS Audio products are UL listed? I've not seen mention of it on the PS Audio site, though I must admit that I haven't looked explicitly for that.

 

[marting]

The noise harvester is built for 110VAC. It might survive, but that depends greatly on the quality of parts used in the primary side. Outside of that, it wouldn't plug into the outlets here. Given the magical qualities attributed to plugs and connectors, I expect any test would be unacceptable (by the PS Audio crowd) if I ran it through adapters. Running it on a transformer would sort of defeat the purpose, too.

The only part(s) in the NH that would potentially be problematic would be the initial caps that series the toroid and shunt the line. These almost certainly have enough margin to tolerate 220-240VAC though they would be more sensitive to large line spikes. The toroid and those components on it's secondary would have no problem.

No doubt the adapters would destroy the NH's properties.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mr. McGowan is now claiming on the PSAudio forums that the noise would manifest itself as intermodulation distortion, and wouldn't necessarily be audible if there were no input signal.

Yes, and I'm calling him on it (unless they have censored my post). He claims he has measured it, then admits he hasn't.

Where does the myth come from that you can't measure audible differences?

From the fact that audiophiles claim to hear unmeasurable differences. However, the problem is that you can only generally measure what you set out to measure. If you don't know what it is, you may miss it. It is not a coincidence he talks about IM. This is one of the hardestthings to measure and for instance TIM (transient intermodulation) fooled techies for quite some time. One of the cases where the listeners had a point.

Not that IM is difficult to measure, once you decide to do it. Just inject two or three frequencies that don't divide into each others and record the spectrum. If any new spikes show up, you have IM.

Hans

 

[marting]

Yes, and I'm calling him on it (unless they have censored my post). He claims he has measured it, then admits he hasn't.



From the fact that audiophiles claim to hear unmeasurable differences. However, the problem is that you can only generally measure what you set out to measure. If you don't know what it is, you may miss it. It is not a coincidence he talks about IM. This is one of the hardestthings to measure and for instance TIM (transient intermodulation) fooled techies for quite some time. One of the cases where the listeners had a point.

Not that IM is difficult to measure, once you decide to do it. Just inject two or three frequencies that don't divide into each others and record the spectrum. If any new spikes show up, you have IM.

Hans

Given stable and low-drift ref clocks, It should be fairly easy to sample, then time sync and subtract to determine the nature of any noise injected into an operating system from issues such as line noise, external RF interacting with the signal and such. It would also show any non-linear effects.

 

[MortFurd]

I gave Mr. McGowan an earful on the IM problem as well.

Since Speco is using a noise source (pink noise I would assume,) IM would show up in a slightly higher over all noise level when not using the noise harveste - if the noise harvester were actually reducing power line noise.

I've been perusing the user manual for Premier Power Plant. Someone mentioned that PS Ausdio recommends removing the ground pin to avoid hum, and the manual really does say that. Can you say "safety hazard?" Youch!

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

240VAC, 50Hz would blow the noise harvester to hell. I don't think Mr. McGowan would give me my money back, then.

The noise harvester is built for 110VAC. It might survive, but that depends greatly on the quality of parts used in the primary side. Outside of that, it wouldn't plug into the outlets here. Given the magical qualities attributed to plugs and connectors, I expect any test would be unacceptable (by the PS Audio crowd) if I ran it through adapters. Running it on a transformer would sort of defeat the purpose, too.

I'm using 245 volt, 50Hz with my Harvesters. It is built for both. In Europe they sell it with Schuko adapter. You haven't even bothered to do proper research first...Why do you think you have any credibility?

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

That may be so, but that is the only kind of noise that gadgets like the NH have a chance of influencing. The NH just possibly might remove a bit of the noise from the power line, and that is the kind of noise you can listen for on a "silent channel". If you can't hear it on a silent channel, then it isn't there, period. It won't magically appear when you turn on the music.

Like on page 1, I have no words. If it isn't obvious, I can't help you.

Nonsense. Simply nonsense. You are trying to make a technical explanation, and you are not qualified for that, as you admit yourself. The result is pure technobabble.

That is what the apes said in 'Planet of The Apes' movie when the human said he could "fly".

 

[jimlintott]

It's the opposite with me. The better I make my system to more acceptable mp3 gets because the extra muddiness doesn't bother me as much. If there is muddiness from the audio system + muddiness from mp3 then it bothers me.

Wrong answer. It makes no sense that a tweak that improved the sound of a system would enable MP3s to sound good. Sounds more like your tweaks have the sound so coloured that it no longer sounds good at all.


I haven't heard your system so I can't say.



Foobar2000 with Kernel Streaming.

I assume you have a Valhalla power cable at your computer then. I suppose your computer is full of all the best Burr Brown DACs. You are probably water cooled so you don't have to hear that pesky fan.



Headphones show the source instead of add room coloration...

Headphones don't annoy other people but they don't produce volume. With headphones it will never sound like that kettle drum is in the room with you.


I heard a difference between 320 kbps mp3 and wav on crappy gear 2 years ago when I was a newbie. I thought the difference with tweaks was smaller than that so I spent a lot of money to upgrade the mp3's. For a year I had mp3 phobia. But then I listened to mp3 again and heard the truth, the mp3's sounded better than ever. Now I use them as reference tracks for my tweaks.

The truth is that MP3 is compressed data that gets compressed by selectively throwing away bits you may not need. They are okay for casual listening in the background but they, like headphones, are not for serious listening.

I am now convinced that ES is giving us near Landover Babtist quality satire.

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I've been perusing the user manual for Premier Power Plant. Someone mentioned that PS Ausdio recommends removing the ground pin to avoid hum, and the manual really does say that. Can you say "safety hazard?" Youch!

Most homes in Europe don't have grounded AC outlets. I have been running my system ungrounded my whole life. After I started tweaking I noticed the grounding wire wasn't connected to the AC outlet, so I connected it. My tweaking has made everything safer.

 

[MortFurd]

I am now convinced that ES is giving us near Landover Babtist quality satire.

If so, he's doing it all over the place. There are references to him on other forums in this thread, and other references to him (on other forums) in the PS Audio threads.

I really don't know if the guy is that bat $$$$ crazy, or just running for the title of "the world's biggest troll."

 

[MortFurd]

Most homes in Europe don't have grounded AC outlets. I have been running my system ungrounded my whole life. After I started tweaking I noticed the grounding wire wasn't connected to the AC outlet, so I connected it. My tweaking has made everything safer.

BZZZZT!! Wrong answer.

Wiring codes in Europe do require a separate ground. I have yet to encounter a country that doesn't (though I haven't traveled much in eastern Europe.)

If your house doesn't have grounded outlets, you need to complain to whatever moron wired the place. If you found a ground wire laid to the socket, but not connected, I suggest you check all of your outlets before you electrocute yourself.

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

BZZZZT!! Wrong answer.

Wiring codes in Europe do require a separate ground. I have yet to encounter a country that doesn't (though I haven't traveled much in eastern Europe.)

If your house doesn't have grounded outlets, you need to complain to whatever moron wired the place. If you found a ground wire laid to the socket, but not connected, I suggest you check all of your outlets before you electrocute yourself.

Schuko is german so you have never seen an outlet that has only 2 holes? Better do research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko

Almost all the outlets in my apartment don't have the grounding pins, just 2 holes.

 

[jsiv]

BZZZZT!! Wrong answer.

Wiring codes in Europe do require a separate ground. I have yet to encounter a country that doesn't (though I haven't traveled much in eastern Europe.)

If your house doesn't have grounded outlets, you need to complain to whatever moron wired the place. If you found a ground wire laid to the socket, but not connected, I suggest you check all of your outlets before you electrocute yourself.

I'm afraid ExtremeSkeptic is correct here. In Norway, grounding is a relatively new addition to the building codes. Most outlets in houses built up until the mid-90s are unlikely to have any grounding. The exception being wet rooms and kitchens.

I certainly have none.