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Skeptics For 911 Truth

pagan, you clearly have no idea what real "critical faculties" are, and are completely unworthy of the title "skeptic". The "official" conspiracy theory is backed up with mountains of evidence, including video confessions by the perpertrators, and by their mentors. To assume that the 19 identified hijackers did not in fact hijack the planes, in the face that they were known Al Qaeda trainees, is an abrogation of Occam's Razor. I myself am one of those who think the administration and the military could have done more to prevent the atrocity, and certainly I am not in favour of any of the human rights violations they have been guilty of since. But that does not make them directly responsible for the act the way the vast bulk of the Truth movement would like everybody to believe.

The people you are gracing with the title of "skeptics" are actually twisters of the truth, going so far in some cases as to deny that planes even crashed, and apparently "laughing at the obvious CGI animations". This is not skepticism, it's verging on mental illness. These are the people you are fellow-travelling with, and it's time you woke up.
 
No that would be bad science.
I wouldn't want to lead your investigations.

Give us the list you came up with all by yourselves - I'd be curious as to how it compares with other lists.

What are the skeptics top 10 problems with the official story?

You'd have to ask every skeptic individually, there isn't a standard manual of procedure.

I had a number of problems with the official story, all of which turned out to be a result of knowing next to nothing about it other than what I heard from a family member who'd read Griffin and watched Loose Change. When I actually tried to find out some information for myself I immediately discovered there was actually nothing to them. I can't even remember now what they were, but www.911myths.com deals with all of them very thoroughly.

My only remaining problem - and it's a very minor one - with the official story is Jowenko's opinion on WTC7, although it's notable that, taken overall, his testimony directly contradicts every conspiracy theory far more comprehensively than it does the official explanation. It also contradicts a lot of eyewitness testimony and flies in the face of common sense, but I try to have the intellectual honesty not to reject the word of an expert just because it clashes with so many other accounts. I'm looking forward to the NIST report on WTC7, which should help clear up the contradiction, although I hope they're a little more careful with their use of the word "essentially" than in the WTC1/2 report.

Now that I've avoided leading your investigations, would you like to give me your own top ten?

Dave
 
The semantics is on our side. We are the sceptics, you are the believer in a conspiracy theory.
You can have the semantics. Facts, science and reality are on our side. Too bad you are so dain bramaged!
 
You are not a skeptic, however. You are a denialist, or as we say around here: a "Truther", twoofer, troother, looser, conspiracist, or conspiracy theorist. Take an appropriate label.
I prefer "conspiraloon".
 
No we want something short and punchy.

Forgetting the 'truth' for a minute, lets just talk about the official story - you see so much uncertainty when you look at the official explanation of that day. It makes me skeptical and I think as much of it should be removed as possible before I start deducing anything. Too many 'known unknowns' as they say.

So I'm not so much for 911 Truth, as against 911 Uncertainty.
Maybe this angle is the uniter?
Are you sure you're not confusing technical exactness in wording for uncertainty? Making a statement in a formal paper such as, "X was likely a contributing factor for Y" is not representing, necessarily, uncertainty. Rarely, in scientific and technical papers, will you get a statement of absoluteness. This comes back to the idea that science and skepticism make provisional agreements with conclusions and is one of the hallmark traits that helps prevent dogmatism.
 
But, we don't have any proofs
That's all you needed to say. No proofs, no evidence, just a remarkable lack of common sense, lack of deductive reasoning skills, inability to understand science, etc etc.
 
Yeah but it's not a scientific issue, more a police matter to be honest - call it judicial or maybe civic? Either way you're transferring onus from govt to academia. I believe this is a flawed approach.

No it's certainly not a black box logical problem, it's a data collection issue.
It's not schroedingers cat - "is he?/isn't he?", and so on. We can open this box. We can get more data.

We can get our hands on the cat and legally torture it to get answers now.
Post Patriot Act - just imagine how enriched the data pool would become if we cast our new powers of investigation back through the social archive of that day?

It is a scientific issue though. The objective, verifiable, empirical evidence regarding the events that day are perfect to be scrutinized using scientific methodology. The reports and studies that have been released are the works of scientists, engineers, and other professionals; not of gov't paper pushers just generating a press release for the news agencies.
 
Huh? You are the conspiracy theorist. You believe in the Bush adm. conspiracy theory. We don't, we are the sceptics.

No, you're the conspiracy theorist.

The Bush adm conspiracy theory is what is on the table. Nothing else. We truthers use our critical faculties to debunk this conspiracy theory that you try to defend. You are the believer we are the sceptics.

There is no Bush Admin Conspiracy Theory, there is the theory that Arabs hijacked the planes and crashed them into the buildings (and shanksville). The WTC's fells due to a combination of things. So thats the Al-Quada CONSPIRACY (note: not conspiracy THEORY).

So far nothing has been debunked in our, and the majorities eyes. If you had such sound proof then you'd have the public on your side. And us. But you don't.

Our debunking activities of this official theory has resulted in the conclusion that it is false on many accounts. So we have strong suspicions that it was an inside job.

Again, you have no set proof. You have anomalies, which are present in EVERYTHING. (NB: Cory Lidle's Plane Crash)

But, we don't have any proofs who did it. To determine that we need further investigations.

You continue to scream for a new investigation, yet refuse to say who would be on the commission for a new investigation, and refuse to say which scientists would be able to test the WTC remains etc.

You are mudding the waters here. The semantics is on our side.

JimBenArm said:
You can have the semantics. Facts, science and reality are on our side.
 
Uncertainty with all the official explanations I'm afraid, and there's been a few. But no we're not uncertain of the testimony, and it's when you stand that up against the official explanation that the problems start to occur, and this is where the uncertainty lies. It made me skeptical. And I think I should remain that way until I hear a better official explanation.
Not meaning to be rude, but who cares what you think? I doubt astrophysicists care what "Earth is the center of the universe" people think, but they would be interested in evidence that "Earth is the center of the universe" people could present that would show the astrophysicists to be wrong.

If you can present the evidence that caused you to feel the available reports are wrong/insufficient/<insert adjective here>, please do so.
 
Huh? You are the conspiracy theorist. You believe in the Bush adm. conspiracy theory. We don't, we are the sceptics.

The Bush adm conspiracy theory is what is on the table. Nothing else. We truthers use our critical faculties to debunk this conspiracy theory that you try to defend. You are the believer we are the sceptics.

Our debunking activities of this official theory has resulted in the conclusion that it is false on many accounts. So we have strong suspicions that it was an inside job.
But, we don't have any proofs who did it. To determine that we need further investigations.

You are mudding the waters here. The semantics is on our side. We are the sceptics, you are the believer in a conspiracy theory.

A "conspiracy theory" is not equivalent to a "theory which contains a conspiracy therein".

A "conspiracy theory" is a very specific thing. Definitions include, but are not limited to

Quote:
A conspiracy theory attempts to explain the ultimate cause of an event or chain of events (usually political, social, or historical events) as a secret, and often deceptive, plot by a covert alliance of powerful or influential people or organizations. Many conspiracy theories claim that major events in history have been dominated by conspirators who manipulate political happenings from behind the scenes.
The first recorded use of the phrase "conspiracy theory" dates back to an economics article in the 1920s, but it was only in the 1960s that it entered popular usage. It entered the supplement to the Oxford English Dictionary as late as 1997. [1]
The term "conspiracy theory" is used by mainstream scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with particular methodological flaws.[2] The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss claims that are alleged by critics to be misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish, irrational, or otherwise unworthy of serious consideration. For example "Conspiracy nut" and "conspiracy theorist" are used as pejorative terms. Some whose theories or speculations are labeled a "conspiracy theory" reject the term as prejudicial.
The term "conspiracy theory" may be a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. However, conspiracy theory is also used to indicate a narrative genre that includes a broad selection of (not necessarily related) arguments for the existence of grand conspiracies, any of which might have far-reaching social and political implications if true.
Whether or not a particular conspiracy allegation may be impartially or neutrally labeled a conspiracy theory is subject to some controversy. Conspiracy theory has become a highly charged political term, and the broad critique of 'conspiracy theorists' by academics, politicians, psychologists, and the media cuts across traditional left-right political lines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory


Quote:
Main Entry: conspiracy theory
Function: noun
: a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators
- conspiracy theorist noun
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/conspiracy%20theory


Quote:
conspiracy theory
- belief that event is plot: a belief that a particular event is the result of a secret plot rather than the actions of an individual person or chance

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpag...spiracy+theory

This is different from a theory (in the scientific sense) that contains a conspiracy

Quote:
Conspiracy*
Conspiracy, in law, agreement between persons to do something illegal or criminal. In this offense, the mere agreement of the conspirators is...
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpag...x?q=conspiracy

Quote:

Main Entry: con·spir·a·cy
Pronunciation: k&n-'spir-&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
Etymology: Middle English conspiracie, from Latin conspirare
1 : the act of conspiring together
2 a : an agreement among conspirators b : a group of conspirators
synonym see [SIZE=-1]PLOT[/SIZE]
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/conspiracy


Quote:
In the criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more natural persons to break the law at some time in the future, and, in some cases, with at least one overt act in furtherance of that agreement. There is no limit on the number participating in the conspiracy and, in most countries, no requirement that any steps have been taken to put the plan into effect (compare attempts which require proximity to the full offence). For the purposes of concurrence, the actus reus is a continuing one and parties may join "the plot" later and incur joint liability and conspiracy can be charged where the co-conspirators have been acquitted and/or cannot be traced. Finally, repentance by one or more parties does not affect liability but may reduce their sentence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29

To equate the two terms is equivocation.

To further expound on my point that "a conspiracy theory" <> "a theory containing a conspiracy"

Quote:
SKEPTIC
November 2006 issue
Wronger Than Wrong
Not all wrong theories are equal
By Michael Shermer

In belles lettres the witty literary slight has evolved into a genre because, as 20th-century trial lawyer Louis Nizer noted, "A graceful taunt is worth a thousand insults." To wit, from high culture, Mark Twain: "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." Winston Churchill: "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." And from pop culture, Groucho Marx: "I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it." Scientists are no slouches when it comes to pitching invectives at colleagues. Achieving almost canonical status as the ne plus ultra put-down is theoretical physicist Wolfgang Pauli's reported harsh critique of a paper: "This isn't right. It's not even wrong." I call this Pauli's proverb.

Columbia University mathematician Peter Woit recently employed Pauli's proverb in his book title, a critique of string theory called Not Even Wrong (Basic Books, 2006). String theory, Woit argues, is not only based on nontestable hypotheses, it depends far too much on the aesthetic nature of its mathematics and the eminence of its proponents. In science, if an idea is not falsifiable, it is not that it is wrong, it is that we cannot determine if it is wrong, and thus it is not even wrong.

Not even wrong. What could be worse? Being wronger than wrong, or what I call Asimov's axiom, well stated in his book The Relativity of Wrong (Doubleday, 1988): "When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Asimov's axiom holds that science is cumulative and progressive, building on the mistakes of the past, and that even though scientists are often wrong, their wrongness attenuates with continued data collection and theory building. Satellite measurements, for instance, have shown precisely how the earth's shape differs from a perfect sphere.

The view that all wrong theories are equal implies that no theory is better than any other. This is the theory of the "strong" social construction of science, which holds that science is inextricably bound to the social, political, economic, religious and ideological predilections of a culture, particularly of those individuals in power. Scientists are knowledge capitalists who produce scientific papers that report the results of experiments conducted to test (and usually support) the hegemonic theories that reinforce the status quo.
In some extreme cases, this theory that culture shapes the way science is conducted is right. In the mid-19th century, physicians discovered that slaves suffered from drapetomania, or the uncontrollable urge to escape from slavery, and dysaethesia aethiopica, or the tendency to be disobedient. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, scientific measurements of racial differences in cognitive abilities found that blacks were inferior to whites. In the mid-20th century, psychiatrists discov-ered evidence that allowed them to classify homosexuality as a disease. And until recently, women were considered -inherently inferior in science classrooms and corporate boardrooms.

Such egregious examples, however, do not negate the extraordinary ability of science to elucidate the natural and social worlds. Reality exists, and science is the best tool yet employed to discover and describe that reality. The theory of evolution, even though it is the subject of vigorous debates about the tempo and mode of life's history, is vastly superior to the theory of creation, which is not even wrong (in Pauli's sense). As evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins observed on this dispute: "When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."

Simply wrong. When people thought that science was unbiased and unbound by culture, they were simply wrong. On the other hand, when people thought that science was completely socially constructed, t hey were simply wrong. But if you believe that thinking science is unbiased is just as wrong as thinking that science is socially constructed, then your view is not even wronger than wrong.

Michael Shermer is publisher of Skeptic (www.skeptic.com). His new book is Why Darwin Matters.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?cha...mber=2&catID=2
 
Huh? You are the conspiracy theorist. You believe in the Bush adm. conspiracy theory. We don't, we are the sceptics.

The Bush adm conspiracy theory is what is on the table. Nothing else. We truthers use our critical faculties to debunk this conspiracy theory that you try to defend. You are the believer we are the sceptics.
No you are not, you are somebody who is driven by his loathing of an individual, that you will believe anything that is said about him. You will support anything that you feel you can use to rub Bushs nose in it.
There is NO Bush Adm conspiracy , there is facts, eye witness accounts, independent reports, a massive criminal investigation, video footage, DNA from the passengers, personnel effects from the passengers. There are recorded phone calls from the passengers, there are family members of passengers who have shared with the world their heartbreaking story. There is transcripts from the black boxes, there is flight data from the black boxes. There are martyrdom videos, there are confession videos, there were prior warnings, there have been nothing but complete and utter acceptance of their dreadful actions by Al Qaeda.
There are people in jail right now for their part in it, there are people being hunted all over the world for their part in it and there are people in custody for their part in it.
There is accounts from firemen, policemen, the first responders. There are reports from those who saw it all. There is even people on this very forum who were part of it all.
Our debunking activities of this official theory has resulted in the conclusion that it is false on many accounts. So we have strong suspicions that it was an inside job.


You have zero critical thinking skills. You are an accuser, who foolish thinks he is having a go a Bush and co when in reality you accuse Americans of mass murder of 3000 of their own.
Save you pathetic excuses, let the mask down and say it, have the courage and balls to say what you really believe.
But, we don't have any proofs who did it. To determine that we need further investigations.

Really?

And what need further investigation , in your unbiased, impartation opinion? The only people who have strong suspicions of an inside job are those, just like you that have absolutely zero ability to think for themselves, so you whine on and on about the Bush administration . this gives you perfect cover to spew your anti American garbage. You play on the fact that Bush is unpopular and you expect everybody to leap to his defense. Well son beam it will not happen, because people are not really defending Bush and Co, they are defending the truth, the facts, reality. Of course you will simply fail, once again has you have done on countless other times to grasp this. You will simply use you well worn, well tried pathetic Bush tactics. This is the limit of your thinking skills. Allow me to sum it up for you.

Bush = Bad, Bush=evil, Bush=nasty, Bush did 911,I hate Bush.You no listen to me, you love Bush.

There it is pal , your life in a nutshell.
You are mudding the waters here. The semantics is on our side. We are the sceptics, you are the believer in a conspiracy theory.
No you are an anti American fool who like to get off on baiting people on a forum. You like to laugh and poke fun at this event, knowing there are many American people on this forum. You like to tease them , because you think you are clever, funny, intelligent. But in reality you are none of these.

You are an internet kook, that is accusing Americans of mass murder of 3000 of their own.
 
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I'm toying with the idea of forming a new group, Skeptics For 911 Truth, closely affiliated with Scholars For 911 Truth and Justice and related groups. Anyone thought of doing something like this?
I'm trying to think of a good design for a banner.

Like, I'm totally thinking of forming this new group called "rational people who use common sense and logic to get through life"...

oh wait, that already exists...it is called the JREF Forum. So how did you get in?

TAM:)
 
Huh? You are the conspiracy theorist. You believe in the Bush adm. conspiracy theory. We don't, we are the sceptics.

Nobody in the "Bush Administration" has a conspiracy theory. The current conclusion is what's on the table, and it was created by (among others)
stilicho said:
FBI NIST SEC FEMA FDNY Port Authority 9/11 Commission NORAD NEADS FAA GTE

So either every person working in every agency of the US Government, Port Authority, FDNY/NY Police and Military is beholden to Bush up to the point of contributing to mass murder, and every expert in academia and business is willing to stay silent

or they all support a conclusion based on the available facts.

That, by definition, cannot be a "conspiracy theory".

The Bush adm conspiracy theory is what is on the table. Nothing else.
What about the holograms, fake planes, false flags, controlled demos, space beams, chickenwire buildings, illuminati joos and Halliburton? Surely they're on some table somewhere? I keep hearing about them.

Our debunking activities[...]we have strong suspicions [..]we don't have any proof[..]we need further investigations.

We are the sceptics.

By claiming an Inside Job/Coverup you become a Conspiracy Theorist
 
Yeah but it's not a scientific issue, more a police matter to be honest - call it judicial or maybe civic?

Actually, you're exactly right. When judging human affairs (where perfect knowledge is impossible), you need a judicial standard of proof and not a scientific one.

Unfortunately for you, the judicial standard of proof is lower than the scientific standard.

The evidence must prove the occurrance beyond a reasonable doubt when trying to establish guilt. There can be unanswered questions. There can be loose ends. There can even be seeming contradictions. But, in the end, reasonable doubt must be raised.

When looking at the mountains of evidence of the official explanation of 9/11 and the paucity of evidence of any MIHOP or LIHOP scenario, the conclusion is simple - conspiracy theorists are idiots.
 
Actually, you're exactly right. When judging human affairs (where perfect knowledge is impossible), you need a judicial standard of proof and not a scientific one.

Unfortunately for you, the judicial standard of proof is lower than the scientific standard.

The evidence must prove the occurrance beyond a reasonable doubt when trying to establish guilt. There can be unanswered questions. There can be loose ends. There can even be seeming contradictions. But, in the end, reasonable doubt must be raised.

When looking at the mountains of evidence of the official explanation of 9/11 and the paucity of evidence of any MIHOP or LIHOP scenario, the conclusion is simple - conspiracy theorists are idiots.

OK skeptics - you can show us what you're made of.

Can anyone tell me whats 'woo' about this post?
I'll let you think.
 
OK skeptics - you can show us what you're made of.

Can anyone tell me whats 'woo' about this post?
I'll let you think.

Here's an attempt at a maxim:

Only people who are too stupid to know how stupid they are behave condescendingly and assume they are the intellectual superiors of those around them.

Feel like proving the maxim wrong?

Stop playing games, Scooby, tell us what you think is wrong with Loss Leader's argument and we'll have a proper discussion.

By the way, nobody here has anything to prove to you - your scorn is a weak and feeble thing.
 
Hmmmmm....let's see......

Loss Leader, as always, is completely correct, fair and truthful. The only thing woo about his post is the fact that you don't seem to understand it.

Would you care to explain what you find "out of place" or "woo" about his post.

Enlighten us.
 
So either every person working in every agency of the US Government, Port Authority, FDNY/NY Police and Military is beholden to Bush up to the point of contributing to mass murder, and every expert in academia and business is willing to stay silent...
Right, Tirdun.

And I didn't even include the people at the inscrutable 'voice-synthesiser' laboratory, Van Romero, the Democratic Party (through acquiescence), every local reporter in New York City, airport surveillance personnel at Logan Airport, and the county coroner in Shanksville. Oh, and Noam Chomsky.

They are all employed by Dick Cheney.
 
I'm sorry you'll have to do better than that, it's got more woo than you can shake a stick at. It's riddled with it.

Come on, don't make me skeptical.
 

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