Virginia apologizes for slavery

Am I the only one who thinks gestures like the Virginia resolution are a good thing, but that any claims for reparations should be summerily dismissed? While I think the historical factor is a bogus argument against resolutions, I think it's entirely germaine to arguments against reparations.

I remember this story. In the debates didnt some hillbilly senator complain about the apology and asked "when will the jews apologize for killing Jesus?"

That idiot. Everyone knows the Romans killed Jesus. If anything it should be the Catholic Chruch apologizing for the conduct of a civil entity to which it permanently attached itself.
 
As a Black man, VA saying they regret for slavery is cool and I'm against reparations.


I'm feeling a lot of love in this room!

As a North Carolinian, I'd like to personally apologize for Clay Aiken. Sorry, guys!

What part? I'm from Reidsville.
 
But not apologize for it?

If you go back you will see I drew a distinction between "living memory" and before. The force dispersal you mention not only happened well within living memory it has also been well within the powers of the UK to have rectified the situation and it is terrible that we haven't done so.

I'm quite happy to say "sorry it shouldn't have happened" for whatever good it does - however I would rather spend time and effort on enforcing the various legal judgements that have ruled against the UK's illegal actions.
 
You are making a lot of assumptions here.

If you look at the data, the "elite and rich" slave-owner who owned a large plantation with many slaves was indeed a very small group.

However, most slave-owners were not the "elite and rich" and owned less than five slaves. They used them as labor, often working next to them.

True, but the ones who didn't own slaves had larger families to make up for it, and/or multiple family units in the same household. The large family or families working together made up for the fact that they couldn't afford slaves.
 
It seems in Caswell, Granville, and Orange County, the idea of the tiny "elite and powerful" few and the enormous amounts of poor in one house just doesn't add up.

That's 3 counties out of 100. I've done the genealogical research. 10-15 children were not at all uncommon in poor farming families. Those counties you mentioned were not granted out the way most of the state was. Around here, they'd just give someone 1000 acres in a grant. Then they'd set up the farm house.
 
Yes, but I don't think anybody in Virginia today either denies slavery happened or that it was bad. So the apology, here, serves no purpose.
Sure it does. It cow-tows (sp) to the PC nazis. And in VA, the racist PC nazis rule far above all.


I remember this story. In the debates didnt some hillbilly senator complain about the apology and asked "when will the jews apologize for killing Jesus?"
I would call that a racist remark, but we all know it's not racist if it's aimed at whitey.

And whether it's the Jews or Romans, somebody owes Christians an apology about Jesus, and all Christians persecuted throughout time. Somebody also owes Irish, Italians (etc) apologies for the persecutions they faced as immigrants to this country. And where's the apology to Ind....er Native Americans of course. The North also owes an apology to the South for the atrocities of the Civil War. Course the South probably owes a few as well. We also owe some apologies to Korea and Vietnam, no doubt, among others. Men of course also need to apologize to women for the persecutions women endured for centuries. And where's the apology from the Huns for their brutality towards Europe??
 
Shera said:
I've personally always found it incomprehensible how the Southern elite managed to get the rest of their countrymen to support them in a war that was against their interests.

Because it was about a whole lot more than just slavery. The protectionists tariffs hurt the poor farmers and families a lot more than it did the elites. In fact, the biggest reason for the increasing rift between the northern and southern states throughout the first half of the 19th century was the tariff issue.

Then there was the issue of creeping Federal power, which the northern states liked because they were the majority in both houses and the southern states didn't like for the same reason.

But even then, they ultimately didn't cry war, just secession. If Lincoln hadn't sent in the troops, and had surrendered Fort Sumter like he did the rest of the military bases, no one would have been attacked. The South was on the defensive.

But this was not the cause of the Civil War. Like you say Tariffs caused a strain in relations only in the first half of the 19th century, not the latter.
Only one state threatened to leave the Union over tariffs and that was South Carolina in the 1830s. SC and the Federal government were able to reach a compromise. The tariffs rate were lowered and the federal govt wast still able to use tariffs to nurture a growing manufactuing base that could not hope to be competitive against the more established and mature European one for quite some time. Many politicians were in favor of the tariffs because they wanted a strong manufacturing base in the advent that the nation had to go to war again.

I have a transcript of the Lincoln Douglas debates in 1858 by Holzer. In the seven debates that each occurred over many hours (attention spans were longer then ;) ) Douglas only mentions Tariffs a few times, and each time it was only to cite it as an example of one of the differences between the Whig and Democratic parties that stopped being an issue after 1850.

As for "creeping Federal power" -- it was supportive of the Southern States right to have slavery within their own borders. Congress even passed a law requiring law enforcement in the Northern States to cooperate and return runaway slaves to their Southern owners. (Fugitive Slave Act of 1850)

IMHO, the Southern States succeeded after Lincoln won the presidency because even though he had said that he would do nothing to interfere with the institution of slavery within the South, they didn't believe him. In the debates, when asked, he would say that he believed that eventually the USA would be entirely all free or all slave. As a result I don't think the Southern states trusted that he wouldn't do anything to interfere with slavery. But ironically, if they had not succeeded from the Union, there is no reason to believe (based on his previous statements, actions and personal beliefs) that Lincoln would have.

So I still stand by my opinion that it was not logical for the 66% (based on Mike B's links which uses 1860 census statistics) or the 75% (based on the Sparknotes link in my post #60 which probably used the 1850 census statistics) of the white southerners who didn't own slaves to support their wealthier neighbors by joining them in the Civil War.

The real reason that the southern non-slave owners may have supported the war was because growing up and being indoctrinated in a stratified society it was no doubt of great importance to them that they were not in the absolute bottom social tier. But I'm straying too far away from the OP ...
 
Interesting posts Mike B. :)

I just want to add that although the stats cited in your posts are slightly different than the one I quoted from Sparknotes (in post #60) and show that more white people owned slaves and more of them - I don't view this as a conflict but as confirmation of a trend. Your cites are generally from the 1860 census and Sparknotes probably used data from the 1850 census.

It makes sense that in a slave based economy white people without slaves would either leave for other opportunities* or eventually start owning slaves themselves in order to be economically competitive with their neighbors.

* Other opportunities included free or cheap land available in the West and also the California Gold Rush that occurred between 1848 and 1855.
 
Only one state threatened to leave the Union over tariffs and that was South Carolina in the 1830s. SC and the Federal government were able to reach a compromise.

For awhile. The situation was even better in the 1840s. But then in the 1850s it started getting worse again. Read Lincoln's first inaugural address; he promises not to interfere with the institution of slavery but is very adamant about collecting the tariffs.

Why do you think the Union refused to relinquish Fort Sumter like they did their other bases in the South? It was so they could blockade and collect the duties. Slavery had nothing to do with that move.
 
It makes sense that in a slave based economy white people without slaves would either leave for other opportunities* or eventually start owning slaves themselves in order to be economically competitive with their neighbors.

Except that it wasn't actually that financially viable to own slaves. One of the big reasons for the Fugitive Slave Act that you mentioned in your other post was that it was too expensive for slave owners to go and get them back.

Slavery was on the way out. It was getting to be too much trouble to keep the slaves and cheaper to just hire labor. Without the FSA, it might have vanished a lot sooner. We certainly didn't need to kill 600,000 people to free them.
 
That's 3 counties out of 100. I've done the genealogical research. 10-15 children were not at all uncommon in poor farming families. Those counties you mentioned were not granted out the way most of the state was. Around here, they'd just give someone 1000 acres in a grant. Then they'd set up the farm house.

So I have your assertions vs. hard numbers?

At least you will admit that the "trusim" about smaller slave-owning families is a bit more complicated?

And your assertion was simplisitic?
 
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For awhile. The situation was even better in the 1840s. But then in the 1850s it started getting worse again. Read Lincoln's first inaugural address; he promises not to interfere with the institution of slavery but is very adamant about collecting the tariffs.

Here's a copy of Lincoln's first inaugural address:
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html
(It’s a very short speech.)

He does not mention tariffs. And as I mentioned in my previous post, even Douglas said Tariffs were no longer a political issue after 1850 in his 1858 debates with Lincoln.

Also per Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Tariff:

On November 19, 1860 US Senator Robert Toombs denounced the "infamous Morrill bill" as the product of a coalition of "the robber and the incendiary...united in joint raid against the South" in his speech advocating secession to the Georgia Legislature. However, Toombs said preservation of slavery was the cause of secession. Of the four Secession Declarations, only Georgia's mentions the tariff issue. [4]

On the other hand, cotton state representatives hoping to lure Virginia into their new nation promised a protective tariff that would enable Virginia to become an industrial state, replacing New England as the source of manufactured items.

The new Confederacy also needed revenue and it passed a tariff of about 15%

So there you have it:
  • Only one of the Southern states that issued secession declarations mentioned tariffs as a cause of secession. The reason they gave for seceding was to preserve slavery.
  • The Southern states were not opposed to tariffs. On the contrary:
    • They promised Virginia they would implement one to enable her to become an industrial state. As a new country they would need their own industrial region, and they were fully prepared to create one with the help of protective tariffs. Yes, that's right. The Confederacy was going to create an industrial region for the same reason and using the same methods as the USA.
and​
* They implemented one immediately to finance their war.​

All this supports the conclusion that the South did not seceed over the issue of tariffs.

shanek said:
Why do you think the Union refused to relinquish Fort Sumter like they did their other bases in the South? It was so they could blockade and collect the duties.


As far as I know they did not voluntarily relinquish any bases. At this point it was war and taking forts away from the enemy is what enemies do when they are at war. Fort Sumter was at the opening of the Charleston Harbor. I can think of several good reasons why the military would want to deprive their enemy of an important harbor.

Slavery had nothing to do with that move.
The North did not go to war over the issue of slavery. They went to war to prevent the Southern States from leaving the Union. You had mentioned Lincoln's first inaugural speech -- that is what he spent most of his time talking about: His reasoning as to why the states had the legal right to prevent the Southern states from succeeding from the Union.

The South did not believe that the North wouldn't interfere with their institution of slavery. They believed this despite the fact that Lincoln had said many times he did not have the "inclination" or the "legal means" to "interfere with the institution of slavery". (Quotes from his first inauguration speech.) They believed this despite the fact that the Fugitives Slaves Act of 1850 existed and redundantly restated one of the articles in the Contitution, that fugitive slaves must be returned to their owners even if they had escaped to a free state.

Once Lincoln won the election for presidency South Carolina decided to seceed and other Southern states joined her later. They left the Union over the issue of slavery.
 
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Except that it wasn't actually that financially viable to own slaves. ...

Slavery was on the way out. It was getting to be too much trouble to keep the slaves and cheaper to just hire labor. ...

A quick comparison of the statistics from the 1850 and 1860 censuses available from the University of Virginia's Historical Census Browser does not support your conclusion.

Per the web site http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/collections/stats/histcensus/index.html:
The data and terminology presented in the Historical Census Browser are drawn directly from historical volumes of the U.S. Census of Population and Housing.
 
The reason they gave for seceding was to preserve slavery.
The reason TOOMBS gave for seceding was to preserve slavery.

Sure slavery was certainly a significant part of why the South broke off, although not the only one.
 
We should have a National Day of Apology. We'll set aside one day a year to apologize to every person we meet for our ancestors actions and inactions. If a person should be of mixed race or nationality, then they should apologize to themselves out loud.
 
We should have a National Day of Apology. We'll set aside one day a year to apologize to every person we meet for our ancestors actions and inactions. If a person should be of mixed race or nationality, then they should apologize to themselves out loud.
As long as I get a paid day off for it, I'll vote it in.
 

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