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Quotes critical of evolution

No, I saw it, but it doesn't answer the question. Milton is not arguing that the life we see today is the only possibility, but rather that random mutations are just as likely be deleterious or produce lesser complexity as they are to be beneficial or to produce greater complexity. So, it's a tautology to say: "Well, we're here, so the cumulative effect of random mutations and natural selection must have led to the mind-boggling complexity of man, not to mention the complexity of other animals." Yes, we and they are here, but there are two other possibilities: (1) Evolution guided by some process, and (2) A special creation.

Also, please note that mutations often produce lesser complexity. This isn't a problem with evolution at all. I would refer you to the vestigial "rear legs" in predecessors of current cetaceans (whales), and the typical lack of any external evidence of these legs in modern cetaceans. If you would like some really cool examples of decreased complexity as shown in chronological progress, study parasites for a while.
 
If it's entirely wrong, how about a mathematical model demonstrating the plausibility of random mutations and natural selection producing man from a single-celled organism in under 4 billion years?

How about you either argue the point or conceded it, and stop moving the goalposts in such a ridiculous way.
 
What, specifically, is wrong with Milton's analysis?



Many things, but mainly his use of probability, one can refer to aggregate probability in a general sense and in fact compute it. But probability always comes down to discrete events. So his statement about the aggregate probability is silly.

One can discuss the distribution of events and wether or not the distribution matches the guessed at probability.

But if one flips a coin ten times and gets heads ten times (assuming it is a random toss) one can not say that it is impossible, the aggregate probability is .5 to the tenth(.00024?) power or something like that. But each coin toss is still 50%, you can not say that :"this is so small a chance that it is unlikely" because the probability is still 50% at each toss. So while the distribution of the sequence of ten in a row is 24 of ten thousand, it doesn't matter because the chance at each toss is fifty percent.

In a very large universe with the likely figure of ten to the seventieth particles in it and maybe 15 billion years, the chances of something that happens one in ten trillion times has a chance of happening. Just because it is unlikely, out of the number of events that 10 to the seventieth particles can engage in, there is a very good likely hood that it will happen.

Then we get to the question of what is the probability of each step leading to abiogenesis and natural selection.

If we say that two particles in a given set have a one in a million chance each year of making a step in that process that means that there are many chances where that will happen over fiveteen billion years. And that is just one set, what is the probability of sets that involve the combination of ten to the seventieth partcicles, even if we eclude one in a million of those particles you still have ten to the sixty fourth particles, one in a billion: ten to the sixty first particles. These numbers are huge. So the probability distribution of low chance events is still likely to happen.

Then we can look at the idea that abiogenesis is also effected by natural selection where the events in the development of abiogenesis are possibly having an increasing chance of occuring.
 
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If it's entirely wrong, how about a mathematical model demonstrating the plausibility of random mutations and natural selection producing man from a single-celled organism in under 4 billion years?

Part I of my Answer:

Did you know that a human can evolve from a single cell in only 9 months? It happens all the time, when anyone is born. True, this is not "random" mutation at work, but, at least we can begin to develop a model of how such a thing can occur within a 4-bilion year framework.

The first thing you have to do is throw out the notion of humans being "multi-cellular" for just a moment. It helps to understand the probabilities better, if you think of humans as colonies of single-celled life forms.(Although each cell itself, being eukaryotic, could be said to be a colony of mutually symbiotic bacteria. But, that is going out of scope for this discussion.)

The only thing that really needs to mutate (or, at least mutate the most), is the genetic material that "instructs" how the body is to build itself. (Once you get to "multi-cellular coordination, this only really needs to happen in the germ line cells (the eggs, sperm, or equivalent).)

So, you have four billion years for cells to multiply, with each offspring offering slightly different experiments in survival, some surviving longer than others, some developing different strategies for survival than others. Each one working out how to organize their community members for the benefit of the colony...

The above is probably oversimplified. But,
Tell me if this helps you recognize how much more plausible cumulative evolution is, so far.

I will continue with Part II, once we establish an understanding of everything said, thus far.

Oh, and sorry about not giving the Dawkins quotes, yet. I will try to post them, tonight.
 
Part I of my Answer:

Did you know that a human can evolve from a single cell in only 9 months? It happens all the time, when anyone is born. True, this is not "random" mutation at work, but, at least we can begin to develop a model of how such a thing can occur within a 4-bilion year framework.

The first thing you have to do is throw out the notion of humans being "multi-cellular" for just a moment. It helps to understand the probabilities better, if you think of humans as colonies of single-celled life forms.(Although each cell itself, being eukaryotic, could be said to be a colony of mutually symbiotic bacteria. But, that is going out of scope for this discussion.)

The only thing that really needs to mutate (or, at least mutate the most), is the genetic material that "instructs" how the body is to build itself. (Once you get to "multi-cellular coordination, this only really needs to happen in the germ line cells (the eggs, sperm, or equivalent).)

So, you have four billion years for cells to multiply, with each offspring offering slightly different experiments in survival, some surviving longer than others, some developing different strategies for survival than others. Each one working out how to organize their community members for the benefit of the colony...

The above is probably oversimplified. But,
Tell me if this helps you recognize how much more plausible cumulative evolution is, so far.

No, it doesn't help one iota because it's so general as to be meaningless. If random mutations and natural selection brought us to where we are today, why hasn't anyone been able to develop a coherent model explaining even a small portion of the progression? Simply asserting that all kinds of wonderful things can happen in nearly four billion years doesn't prove a thing.

I will continue with Part II, once we establish an understanding of everything said, thus far.
That may be a while . . .

Oh, and sorry about not giving the Dawkins quotes, yet. I will try to post them, tonight.
Again, I look forward to that.
 
I find it very interesting, and informative, which posts you choose to ignore or respond to. :rolleyes:
 
Actually, I made the mistake of formulating that last response, while at work, just before a pile of things to do were given to me. So, that response got awkwardly cut off, in the middle. I hope not to do that, again. But, I shall attempt to make up for it, by moving my original point forward a bit.

No, it doesn't help one iota because it's so general as to be meaningless.
...
Simply asserting that all kinds of wonderful things can happen in nearly four billion years doesn't prove a thing.
The gist of my last post was to reduce the complications needed to evolve. We may look at humans as refined, complicated structures. But, all that is necessary for natural selection to work off of, is the DNA inside a single cell or two, at a time.

If random mutations and natural selection brought us to where we are today, why hasn't anyone been able to develop a coherent model explaining even a small portion of the progression?
They did! It's called cumulative probability. And, again, I'm sorry if my last post didn't get to the part that made that clear.

So, here is Part II:

One more point to get across, before we move into the Framework. (This is important, so pay attention): Natural Selection is blind. It never plans ahead. The creationists who argue the "single direction" are missing the point: Life did not have to end up the way it did! Life forms ended up the way they did as a consequence of selection pressures. Humans could easily have looked completely different, if the environment our ancestors were in was slightly different.

So an over-simplified example of the cumulative probability framework might work something like this:
Animal A and B have three offspring: C, D, and E. C has slightly more fur, D slightly less fur, and E has about the average amount of fur, in between. However, E is slightly less aggressive when finding mates.
If the environment happens to get a little cooler, C is likely to survive better than its siblings. If it gets warmer, D would probably survive better. But, if both C and D are eaten by a predator, E will have less competition in the breeding arena, and its genes will likely survive.
We might not be able to see ahead which one will make it. But, if we leap forward into the future, under a few scenarios, we can see how those small changes can be magnified:

Let's say we look at that species 100 years into the future: If their environment got gradually colder, the whole time, we would not only see more fur, but perhaps different colored and structured fur, as well.
If the environment kept getting warmer, we would see fur dissipate, and the animal's behavior might be different as well: Perhaps it swims more often to stay cool on broiling hot days, even though their ancient cousins never swam at all.
Both of those could also be the case if E survived, but: the mating preferences would be transformed: Instead of those animals adapting war-like methods to compete for mates, complete with "weapon" adaptations, mating would be more peaceful; "Weaponized" members would be selected out.

So, the bottom line, in that simple scenario, is that there are at least three paths (not "one" as the creationists claim) that the animal could have gone, depending on how the environment changed. A and B were only slightly different from C, D, and E. However, far into the future, the species would look and act very, very different, based on which of the three survived.

Of course, it is also possible that more than one of them could have survived, lived in different environments, and given enough time, would fork into different species.

This applies to humans, as well. Evolution is not a ladder. There is no reason we evolved the way we did, except for how the selection pressures worked out, in each environment our ancestors found themselves in. If the environment was slightly different at any stage, those differences would cause the selection pressures to work out differently, and those differences would be magnified, and we would look very different as a result.
Only our ego and arrogance makes us humans believe that there is only one possible way we could have become humans.

Are we getting the picture, yet?

From a mathematical perspective: C, D, and E were relatively probable mutations of their parents, A and B. If we look 100 years in the future: X, Y, and Z would be very improbable mutations of A and B. But, each generation between AB and XYZ, had mutations that were quite probable from their own parents. Selection pressures are what drove the animal to transform in any particular direction, over time.

In Part III, I will offer some real life examples, from the field. I do not have time to write them in, right now.

That may be a while . . .
Sometimes it does. Simple scientific ideas are often non-intuitive, and require a little patience to see their power.

Again, I look forward to that.
From page 121 of The God Delusion:
What is it that makes natural selection succeed as a solution to the problem of improbability, where chance and design both fail at the starting gate? The answer is that natural selection is a cumulative process, which breaks the problem of improbability up into small pieces. Each of the small pieces is slightly improbable, but not prohibitively so.
The creationist completely misses the point because he... insists on treating the genesis of statistical improbability as a single, one-off event. He doesn't understand the power of accumulation.
Dawkins also uses a safe cracker as an analogy. The likelihood of a safe cracker hitting the right combination on a bank safe, using only a couple of random numbers, is usually very low. But, on page 122, Dawkins states:
Imagine a badly designed combination lock that gave out little hints progressively – the equivalent of the 'getting warmer' of children playing Hunt the Slipper. Suppose that when each one of the dials approaches its correct setting, the vault door opens another chink, and a dribble of money trickles out. The burglar would home in on the jackpot in no time.

The quotes are admittedly redundant to other posts in this thread, but at least it shows he did not abandon the argument.
 
No, it doesn't help one iota because it's so general as to be meaningless. If random mutations and natural selection brought us to where we are today, why hasn't anyone been able to develop a coherent model explaining even a small portion of the progression? Simply asserting that all kinds of wonderful things can happen in nearly four billion years doesn't prove a thing.

Uh huh, and what evidence do you have that not a single progession(mistaken notion that that is and a loathsome concept in the TOE) has been explained. What evidence do you have to present?

I will grant you that the evolution of eohippus into other forms that lead to modern horses may not be to your liking.

So when you say'Develop a coherent moed; explaining even a small portion of the progeression", what are you questioning.

The evolution of bacteria to resist antibiotics is somewhat know so I can state with some measure of certainty that a small portion of the progression(ugh, that awful deterministic word again) towards antibiotic resistance is know.

So what area do you think we don't know about? Abiogenesis is a theory at this point. Evolution is a theory, what evidence do you have for an alternate theory that explains the observable world and makes a prediction that TOE does not make?
 
Actually, I made the mistake of formulating that last response, while at work, just before a pile of things to do were given to me. So, that response got awkwardly cut off, in the middle. I hope not to do that, again. But, I shall attempt to make up for it, by moving my original point forward a bit.

The gist of my last post was to reduce the complications needed to evolve. We may look at humans as refined, complicated structures. But, all that is necessary for natural selection to work off of, is the DNA inside a single cell or two, at a time.

They did! It's called cumulative probability. And, again, I'm sorry if my last post didn't get to the part that made that clear.

So, here is Part II:

One more point to get across, before we move into the Framework. (This is important, so pay attention): Natural Selection is blind. It never plans ahead. The creationists who argue the "single direction" are missing the point: Life did not have to end up the way it did! Life forms ended up the way they did as a consequence of selection pressures. Humans could easily have looked completely different, if the environment our ancestors were in was slightly different.

So an over-simplified example of the cumulative probability framework might work something like this:
Animal A and B have three offspring: C, D, and E. C has slightly more fur, D slightly less fur, and E has about the average amount of fur, in between. However, E is slightly less aggressive when finding mates.
If the environment happens to get a little cooler, C is likely to survive better than its siblings. If it gets warmer, D would probably survive better. But, if both C and D are eaten by a predator, E will have less competition in the breeding arena, and its genes will likely survive.
We might not be able to see ahead which one will make it. But, if we leap forward into the future, under a few scenarios, we can see how those small changes can be magnified:

Let's say we look at that species 100 years into the future: If their environment got gradually colder, the whole time, we would not only see more fur, but perhaps different colored and structured fur, as well.
If the environment kept getting warmer, we would see fur dissipate, and the animal's behavior might be different as well: Perhaps it swims more often to stay cool on broiling hot days, even though their ancient cousins never swam at all.
Both of those could also be the case if E survived, but: the mating preferences would be transformed: Instead of those animals adapting war-like methods to compete for mates, complete with "weapon" adaptations, mating would be more peaceful; "Weaponized" members would be selected out.

So, the bottom line, in that simple scenario, is that there are at least three paths (not "one" as the creationists claim) that the animal could have gone, depending on how the environment changed. A and B were only slightly different from C, D, and E. However, far into the future, the species would look and act very, very different, based on which of the three survived.

Of course, it is also possible that more than one of them could have survived, lived in different environments, and given enough time, would fork into different species.

This applies to humans, as well. Evolution is not a ladder. There is no reason we evolved the way we did, except for how the selection pressures worked out, in each environment our ancestors found themselves in. If the environment was slightly different at any stage, those differences would cause the selection pressures to work out differently, and those differences would be magnified, and we would look very different as a result.
Only our ego and arrogance makes us humans believe that there is only one possible way we could have become humans.

Are we getting the picture, yet?

The picture you're painting I got long ago, but, again, it's all glittering generalities.

From a mathematical perspective: C, D, and E were relatively probable mutations of their parents, A and B. If we look 100 years in the future: X, Y, and Z would be very improbable mutations of A and B. But, each generation between AB and XYZ, had mutations that were quite probable from their own parents. Selection pressures are what drove the animal to transform in any particular direction, over time.
How much time? Where is the model that shows what biologists believe to have happened in less than four billion years could plausibly have happened via an unguided process?

In Part III, I will offer some real life examples, from the field. I do not have time to write them in, right now.

Sometimes it does. Simple scientific ideas are often non-intuitive, and require a little patience to see their power.

From page 121 of The God Delusion:

Quote:
What is it that makes natural selection succeed as a solution to the problem of improbability, where chance and design both fail at the starting gate? The answer is that natural selection is a cumulative process, which breaks the problem of improbability up into small pieces. Each of the small pieces is slightly improbable, but not prohibitively so.
Quote:
The creationist completely misses the point because he... insists on treating the genesis of statistical improbability as a single, one-off event. He doesn't understand the power of accumulation.

How well do you think Dawkins understands it? Does he have a degree in math or statistics?

Dawkins also uses a safe cracker as an analogy. The likelihood of a safe cracker hitting the right combination on a bank safe, using only a couple of random numbers, is usually very low. But, on page 122, Dawkins states:
Quote:
Imagine a badly designed combination lock that gave out little hints progressively – the equivalent of the 'getting warmer' of children playing Hunt the Slipper. Suppose that when each one of the dials approaches its correct setting, the vault door opens another chink, and a dribble of money trickles out. The burglar would home in on the jackpot in no time.

The quotes are admittedly redundant to other posts in this thread, but at least it shows he did not abandon the argument.
Okay, fair enough.
 
Uh huh, and what evidence do you have that not a single progession(mistaken notion that that is and a loathsome concept in the TOE) has been explained. What evidence do you have to present?

I will grant you that the evolution of eohippus into other forms that lead to modern horses may not be to your liking.

So when you say'Develop a coherent moed; explaining even a small portion of the progeression", what are you questioning.
I'm questioning the improbability of the Darwinist model.

The evolution of bacteria to resist antibiotics is somewhat know so I can state with some measure of certainty that a small portion of the progression(ugh, that awful deterministic word again) towards antibiotic resistance is know.
Your comments on the following analysis would be appreciated:
http://www.alternativescience.com/talk.origins-antibiotic.htm

In particular, see this recent update:

"Microorganisms multiply very rapidly. Under the right conditions of temperature and nutrients, a single bacterium can reproduce in minutes, giving rise to more than 4 million offspring in 8 hours. This rate of reproduction is more than fast enough to demonstrate the Darwinian process of mutation and natural selection happening in real time. In thousands of laboratories all over the world, literally billions and billions of reproductions take place under controlled conditions. The DNA of these microorganisms can be analysed as a matter of routine. Yet no microbiologist has so far announced observing the appearance of a new species of bacteria through the Darwinian process of the natural selection of genetic mutations (other than the bogus claims described above.)

"If the natural selection of genetic mutations really were the primary driver of evolution, then there should be hundreds, or even thousands of new species appearing on an almost daily basis. Schoolkids should be able to breed new species on their classroom window sill. Yet far from such profligate innovation, what is actually found in the laboratory is stability and resistance to change - what Ernst Mayer called genetic homeostasis.

"What is true for rapidly breeding microrganisms is likely also to be true of much slower breeding multi-celled creatures; that far from being the driver of evolution, the natural selection of genetic mutations has a neglible effect on inheritance."

So what area do you think we don't know about? Abiogenesis is a theory at this point. Evolution is a theory, what evidence do you have for an alternate theory that explains the observable world and makes a prediction that TOE does not make?
First, there is no plausible theory on how life could have come into existence randomly. Second, evolution is not necessarily the same as Darwinism. And evolution through a guided process leaves far less to be explained than an unguided process that relies overwhelmingly on random mutations.
 
You are absolutely correct that mutations are just as likely to be deleterious, but these mutations result in the organism with that mutation failing to procreate as well as its unmutated fellow organisms. This means that deleterious mutations are naturally deselected. Benificial mutations result in an organism procreating better than its fellow organisms, so its mutation is passed on to more of the next generation, and that generation pass on to more of the next, and so on.

It is indeed a tautology to say "we're already here, therefore the probability of us being here is 1". It's a tautology regardless of how you propose we got to this stage. That's the entire point. The fact that we're here doesn't actually say anything about how we got here (look up the anthropic principle). The argument that the probability is so low that it couldn't have happened randomly is saying precisely the opposite, and is thus erroneous. More to the point it completely ignores the main point of evolution, that benificial mutations will naturally be selected by means of population competition pressure. There's only so much food to go round, and there are always other animals that are out to get you, so those animals that are better at getting food and avoiding becoming food will be far more likely to pass on their genes, not to mention disease resistance. We can actually see in humans the effects of reducing this pressure (and improving medical science) - deleterious mutations are not efficiently bred out of the population, leading to people with various genetic diseases being able to lead full lives and pass on their genes. Selection pressure weeds out those organisms less fit for the environment in which they live.

So on to your two other possible scenarios;

1) Guided evolution. What is guiding the evolution? By Ockham's Razor you're invoking a guide where none is required, as you're ascribing to evolution anyway! Further, you have to explain a non-intelligent guide, or you raise the inevitable question, "where did the guide come from?" and a non-intelligent guide defaults to "selection pressure" and you have evolution by natural selection.

2) Special creation. This, by definition, requires a creator, that must be at least as complex as we are, which leads to the inevitable question, "where did the creator come from?" and from there it's turtles all the way down!

Many things, but mainly his use of probability, one can refer to aggregate probability in a general sense and in fact compute it. But probability always comes down to discrete events. So his statement about the aggregate probability is silly.

One can discuss the distribution of events and wether or not the distribution matches the guessed at probability.

But if one flips a coin ten times and gets heads ten times (assuming it is a random toss) one can not say that it is impossible, the aggregate probability is .5 to the tenth(.00024?) power or something like that. But each coin toss is still 50%, you can not say that :"this is so small a chance that it is unlikely" because the probability is still 50% at each toss. So while the distribution of the sequence of ten in a row is 24 of ten thousand, it doesn't matter because the chance at each toss is fifty percent.

In a very large universe with the likely figure of ten to the seventieth particles in it and maybe 15 billion years, the chances of something that happens one in ten trillion times has a chance of happening. Just because it is unlikely, out of the number of events that 10 to the seventieth particles can engage in, there is a very good likely hood that it will happen.

Then we get to the question of what is the probability of each step leading to abiogenesis and natural selection.

If we say that two particles in a given set have a one in a million chance each year of making a step in that process that means that there are many chances where that will happen over fiveteen billion years. And that is just one set, what is the probability of sets that involve the combination of ten to the seventieth partcicles, even if we eclude one in a million of those particles you still have ten to the sixty fourth particles, one in a billion: ten to the sixty first particles. These numbers are huge. So the probability distribution of low chance events is still likely to happen.

Then we can look at the idea that abiogenesis is also effected by natural selection where the events in the development of abiogenesis are possibly having an increasing chance of occuring.

I find it very interesting, and informative, which posts you choose to ignore or respond to. :rolleyes:
Still no response for these posts?
 
I'm questioning the improbability of the Darwinist model.


Your comments on the following analysis would be appreciated:
http://www.alternativescience.com/talk.origins-antibiotic.htm

In particular, see this recent update:

"Microorganisms multiply very rapidly. Under the right conditions of temperature and nutrients, a single bacterium can reproduce in minutes, giving rise to more than 4 million offspring in 8 hours. This rate of reproduction is more than fast enough to demonstrate the Darwinian process of mutation and natural selection happening in real time. In thousands of laboratories all over the world, literally billions and billions of reproductions take place under controlled conditions. The DNA of these microorganisms can be analysed as a matter of routine. Yet no microbiologist has so far announced observing the appearance of a new species of bacteria through the Darwinian process of the natural selection of genetic mutations (other than the bogus claims described above.)
Yeah so, I asked a simple question about genetic variation and how you said that there is no evidence of progression (ugh, what a bad word), and instead of saying where you think there is no evidence of progression you stand there wave your hands and say, well no new bacteria have been developed.

So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?

I will post this question every time you post until you answer.

You have moved the goal post in the first discussion.

So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?
"If the natural selection of genetic mutations really were the primary driver of evolution, then there should be hundreds, or even thousands of new species appearing on an almost daily basis.
Bogus assertion
Schoolkids should be able to breed new species on their classroom window sill. Yet far from such profligate innovation, what is actually found in the laboratory is stability and resistance to change - what Ernst Mayer called genetic homeostasis.
So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?
"What is true for rapidly breeding microrganisms is likely also to be true of much slower breeding multi-celled creatures; that far from being the driver of evolution, the natural selection of genetic mutations has a neglible effect on inheritance."
So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?
First, there is no plausible theory on how life could have come into existence randomly. Second, evolution is not necessarily the same as Darwinism. And evolution through a guided process leaves far less to be explained than an unguided process that relies overwhelmingly on random mutations.

And that is only becuase you do not understand the theory of natural selection.

So what does the guiding Rodney I will ask that question too until you answer.
 
So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?

What does the guiding Rodney?

And please don't quote other people's websites. In this thread when we have pointed out the errors of thought in the web site, you have done what? Ignored the critique.

talk about glittering generalities, you own the shop! ;)
 
Yeah so, I asked a simple question about genetic variation and how you said that there is no evidence of progression (ugh, what a bad word), and instead of saying where you think there is no evidence of progression you stand there wave your hands and say, well no new bacteria have been developed.

So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?

I will post this question every time you post until you answer.

You have moved the goal post in the first discussion.

So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?

Bogus assertion

So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?

So I ask you again, how is bacterial resistance to antibiotics not an example of natural selection?


And that is only becuase you do not understand the theory of natural selection.

So what does the guiding Rodney I will ask that question too until you answer.

PS Rodney can you defend even one of the silly assertiona made at that website?
Such unexpressed genes are known to be sometimes 'switched on' by environmental pressures of just the life-threatening kind that are applied to bacteria in the lab. So, even if antibiotic resistance were genuinely arising during the experiment, it is not necessarily arising de novo, as Dr Max claims, but may merely be a genetic throwback.

Where is the evidence of that that enviromental factors can switch on unexpressed genes?
 
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If the natural selection of genetic mutations really were the primary driver of evolution, then there should be hundreds, or even thousands of new species appearing on an almost daily basis. Schoolkids should be able to breed new species on their classroom window sill.
What definition of species is this author using, and for which organisms?

I suspect schoolkids can breed new species of bacteria on their window sill, if they approach the problem correctly.

~~ Paul
 
I'm questioning the improbability of the Darwinist model.


Your comments on the following analysis would be appreciated:
http://www.alternativescience.com/talk.origins-antibiotic.htm

In particular, see this recent update:

"Microorganisms multiply very rapidly. Under the right conditions of temperature and nutrients, a single bacterium can reproduce in minutes, giving rise to more than 4 million offspring in 8 hours. This rate of reproduction is more than fast enough to demonstrate the Darwinian process of mutation and natural selection happening in real time. In thousands of laboratories all over the world, literally billions and billions of reproductions take place under controlled conditions. The DNA of these microorganisms can be analysed as a matter of routine. Yet no microbiologist has so far announced observing the appearance of a new species of bacteria through the Darwinian process of the natural selection of genetic mutations (other than the bogus claims described above.)


Nylon eating bacteria


And you really, really do not want to get into an argument on the definition of bacterial species and the exchange of genetic material, unless of course you have a backgound in microbiology?
 
Still no response for these posts?

I'm not sure if this was addressed to Rodney in particular or readers in general, but I'll have a go anyway.

So on to your two other possible scenarios;

1) Guided evolution. What is guiding the evolution? By Ockham's Razor you're invoking a guide where none is required, as you're ascribing to evolution anyway! Further, you have to explain a non-intelligent guide, or you raise the inevitable question, "where did the guide come from?" and a non-intelligent guide defaults to "selection pressure" and you have evolution by natural selection.

2) Special creation. This, by definition, requires a creator, that must be at least as complex as we are, which leads to the inevitable question, "where did the creator come from?" and from there it's turtles all the way down!

It's possible to argue that a guided missile demonstrates non-intelligent guidance. I don't need to explain the origins of a guided missile in order to identify it as such, it's behaviour is recognisably different from an unguided, ballistic, missile.
If someone standing in the targetted location shouts "Who the f*** fired that?", it's a reasonable, if ill-timed, question. The response "Sorry, you can't ask that, it's turtles all the way down" isn't right.
It's quite possible to recursively analyse this set of systems and say the behaviour of the missile is the result of the non-intelligent guidance system, which was designed by human intelligence, which evolved (unguided).
In other words, the complexity of the complex system you're looking has unguided evolution as it ultimate origin, it's proximate origin may not be.

Guided evolution is a logically consistent possibility, that's what artificial selection is after all; the argument against it (pre-human) comes down entirely to the lack of any supporting evidence.
 
First, there is no plausible theory on how life could have come into existence randomly. Second, evolution is not necessarily the same as Darwinism. And evolution through a guided process leaves far less to be explained than an unguided process that relies overwhelmingly on random mutations.
I've already addressed this, but since you've ignored that post I'll repeat it, and hopefully make it clearer.

To do this I'll follow the logic of guided evolution to its inevitable ends.

There are two possible ways that evolution could be guided;

1. The first of these is intelligently, i.e. something watches how things progress and tweaks them if it doesn't like what's happening. This intelligence has two possible forms, natural and supernatural.

1a. The natural would be some form of being which exists within the physical laws of our Universe, i.e. aliens. This however raises the question of how the aliens got to be so intelligent as to play with evolution without leaving any traces of their tinkering. They must be at least as intelligent and advanced as humans, and if evolution by natural selection can't work then logically something must have guided the aliens' evolution. But whatever it was that guided the aliens evolution must also have been intelligent and advanced and......... well I could keep going forever, an infinite regression of intelligently evolved creatures. You seem fond of calculating probabilities, so would you care to work out the probability of an infinite regression?

1b. The supernatural explanation is some form of intelligence that exists outside of the physical laws of our Universe, and is thus undetectable by any means. That would be god, and since it is undetectable it leaves science and becomes philosophy and theology. At which point all scientific enquiry comes to a halt and we have a god of the gaps. This effectively defaults to "Nobody knows how evolution works, so god did it!" There are no possible answers, so we should give up asking questions.

2. The second form the guide can take is non-intelligent. This must be some set of rules or laws which govern how evolution progresses. Well we have some evidence (a heck of a lot, actually) of how evolution progresses from the fossil record, bacteria, viruses, vestigial structures, etc. and these seem to show that creatures adapt to their surroundings. The big question, of course, is, "how do they adapt? What mechanism allows the adaptation?" Well, investigation of DNA seems to show that DNA itself changes randomly with some of these changes helping organisms to adapt positively, and some causing negative adaptations. Those adaptations which are positive allow the organism to thrive, whilst the latter usually result in the organism dying out. So the guide for non-intelligently guided evolution would seem to be pressure on populations from their environment, i.e. evolution by natural selection.

I predict, however, that you will completely ignore this post.
 

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