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Quotes critical of evolution

This just shows a complete and total lack of an understanding of probability, there is no aggregate probability there is only discrete probability at a single event.
So is the following contention by Milton true or false?

"Although making no public comment, Dawkins evidently took this point on board, because he dropped the claim from all later books and concentrated instead on attempting merely to mitigate the improbability of Darwinism by other means."
 
Yes. See http://www.alternativescience.com/richard_dawkins.htm

Excerpt:

"When he wrote The Blind Watchmaker in the 1980s, Darwinism appeared to be securely buttressed by mountains of detailed natural observations that supported its main contentions: observations such as the divergence of Galapagos Finches, industrial melanism in moths, and vestigial organs in the human body. With all this evidence, Darwinists could feel confident that they were on sure ground in general, even if matters of detail were not yet fully worked out. But while he was tirelessly recycling arguments from the anthropic principle, Dawkins failed to notice that this ‘evidence’ was melting away around him, like snow on a spring morning, thanks to better observation and clearer thinking.

"Through the work of Peter and Rosemary Grant, for example, we now know that there are not 13 divergent species of finch on the Galapagos islands but a single species with many varieties – just like the many varieties of dog. We know, too, that ‘industrial melanism’ has no relevant connection to evolution or natural selection but merely to shifting balances of population. And we know that organs previously thought to be ‘vestigial’ do in fact have important functions of which we were simply ignorant. Dozens of similar examples can be given. We now know also that, far from being ‘a mechanism for generating improbability’, natural selection is a tautology lacking any scientific content.

"Dawkins has failed to notice that this receding tide of fact has left him marooned alone atop Mount Improbable and that what was once a useful tool of explanation for a complex web of facts is now no more than empty sloganising."


...have you actually READ "The Blind Watchmaker"? And if you did, did you just read it for the pictures?

Seriously, what the hell? To claim that he relies on slogans and that he's ignoring any kind of "evidence" shows that you either did not read his book, or skipped most of the important parts.

I'd say more, but most of what I have to say would be claims of libel and possible slander (supposing this was spoken out loud), as well as some insults, so I think I'll deviate.
 
So is the following contention by Milton true or false?

"Although making no public comment, Dawkins evidently took this point on board, because he dropped the claim from all later books and concentrated instead on attempting merely to mitigate the improbability of Darwinism by other means."
The contention is indeed false. Dawkins did not drop the claim. He still stands strongly by the point, and makes it every-so-often.

There is so much evidence for evolution, though, that he doesn't have to repeat the same old schtick, all the time, in his books. He would rather move on to other bits of evidence. This is unlike ID, which has not made any new arguments since about the 15th century.

(If you disagree with my "15th century" claim, please provide the more recent evidence that has been uncovered for ID. Thanks.)


ETA: Dawkin's most recent book "The God Delusion" makes the argument for cumulative probability, starting on page 119 in the hardcover edition.
Therefore, Milton's claim is quite false.
 
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ETA: Dawkin's most recent book "The God Delusion" makes the argument for cumulative probability, starting on page 119 in the hardcover edition. Therefore, Milton's claim is quite false.
Milton's claim preceded "The God Delusion", but in that book does Dawkins specifically take on the following assertions by Milton?

"In 1992, I pointed out in print that Dawkins’s suggestion is mathematically flawed. It is true of the probability of unrelated events (such as tossing a coin) but is untrue of related events such as the cumulative natural selection of random genetic mutations. Indeed it is the cumulative nature of natural selection (which Dawkins proposed as its greatest strength) that is in fact its greatest weakness from the point of view of its improbability.

"The need for genetic mutations to occur in the correct sequence to feed into the one-way accumulation of natural selection at just the decisive moment is the very factor that makes it so increasingly improbable as a natural mechanism.

"From a mathematical viewpoint, the probability of life evolving via the natural selection of ten big mutations is exactly the same as the probability of life evolving via ten thousand small mutations, if the order in which the mutations must occur is taken into account (and, of course, the order is crucial)."
 
Milton's claim preceded "The God Delusion", but in that book does Dawkins specifically take on the following assertions by Milton?

"In 1992, I pointed out in print that Dawkins’s suggestion is mathematically flawed. It is true of the probability of unrelated events (such as tossing a coin) but is untrue of related events such as the cumulative natural selection of random genetic mutations. Indeed it is the cumulative nature of natural selection (which Dawkins proposed as its greatest strength) that is in fact its greatest weakness from the point of view of its improbability.

"The need for genetic mutations to occur in the correct sequence to feed into the one-way accumulation of natural selection at just the decisive moment is the very factor that makes it so increasingly improbable as a natural mechanism.

"From a mathematical viewpoint, the probability of life evolving via the natural selection of ten big mutations is exactly the same as the probability of life evolving via ten thousand small mutations, if the order in which the mutations must occur is taken into account (and, of course, the order is crucial)."
Milton's reasoning only applies if the end product is predetermined. Milton is applying a priori reasoning from an a posteriori viewpoint, and assuming that the life we see today is the life that had to evolve. It isn't. The fact is that the a posteriori probability of evolution on earth producing the life that exists today is formally 1. If you don't set a target for evolution then random mutation can produce any outcome. It's anthropocentric arrogance that allows him to make such a basic mistake.
 
Milton's reasoning only applies if the end product is predetermined. ...

Or if you don't like that go get a pack of cards, go on, get one.

Shuffle it.

Deal all 52 cards to yourself.

The likeliness of that particular combination is astronomically high.

If one were to do this enough one would eventually deal the cards in order.

Does this now mean that because the cards take on a pattern we recognise that there was something magical involved?

It is inevitable that you will get 52 cards. Milton's reasoning would have us believe you can't even deal the pack.
 
It is the same flawed mathematics and misunderstand of the basics of evolution that lead many to claim that evolution "is not mathematically possible".
 
I've always wondered how almost metaphysical mathmatical musings are supposed to make:

Discreet geological ages
The fossil record
Genetic similarities
Homology amongst all tetrapods
Vestigial and atavistic body parts
Nested hierarchies with both fossil and genetic comparisons
Etc.

disappear. Can some anti-evolutionist explain it to me?
 
I've always wondered how almost metaphysical mathmatical musings are supposed to make:

Discreet geological ages
The fossil record
Genetic similarities
Homology amongst all tetrapods
Vestigial and atavistic body parts
Nested hierarchies with both fossil and genetic comparisons
Etc.

disappear. Can some anti-evolutionist explain it to me?

I think that, for the most part, the mathematical argument is made against abiogenesis rather then evolution. The problem is, they don't know the difference between the two. It doesn't really matter how unlikely evolution is, because we've can see it happen. Evolution is a fact.
 
I think that, for the most part, the mathematical argument is made against abiogenesis rather then evolution. The problem is, they don't know the difference between the two. It doesn't really matter how unlikely evolution is, because we've can see it happen. Evolution is a fact.

Sorry, should have included that caveat in my post. I think the conflation stems from Creationists thinking everything from the start of the Universe to where horsies, kitty cats and moo cows come from. Blame Kent Hovind, et. al. It's almost clinical for me watching Creation and "Evolution" debates degenerate from "so what about Basilisaurus?" to "but where did the first life originat from" in 3 posts. It speaks to how desperate must Creationists are.
 
I've always wondered how almost metaphysical mathmatical musings are supposed to make:

Discreet geological ages
The fossil record
Genetic similarities
Homology amongst all tetrapods
Vestigial and atavistic body parts
Nested hierarchies with both fossil and genetic comparisons
Etc.

disappear. Can some anti-evolutionist explain it to me?

how about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strata_(novel)

creator has a sense of humour and is playing a practical joke by faking evidence for the age of the world and evolution and giving us the brains to deduce contra-biblical accounts of Earth's origin...

Jim,

OK I'm not an anti-evolutionist
 
Milton's claim preceded "The God Delusion", but in that book does Dawkins specifically take on the following assertions by Milton?

"In 1992, I pointed out in print that Dawkins’s suggestion is mathematically flawed. It is true of the probability of unrelated events (such as tossing a coin) but is untrue of related events such as the cumulative natural selection of random genetic mutations. Indeed it is the cumulative nature of natural selection (which Dawkins proposed as its greatest strength) that is in fact its greatest weakness from the point of view of its improbability.

"The need for genetic mutations to occur in the correct sequence to feed into the one-way accumulation of natural selection at just the decisive moment is the very factor that makes it so increasingly improbable as a natural mechanism.

"From a mathematical viewpoint, the probability of life evolving via the natural selection of ten big mutations is exactly the same as the probability of life evolving via ten thousand small mutations, if the order in which the mutations must occur is taken into account (and, of course, the order is crucial)."
Yes, it does. Pages 119 to 125, in the hard cover edition (which is in chapter 4, in the sub-section entitled "Irreducible Complexity"), he specifically takes on those arguments. Read it yourself, if you dare!
When I have more time, I might type out some quotes.
 
Sorry, should have included that caveat in my post. I think the conflation stems from Creationists thinking everything from the start of the Universe to where horsies, kitty cats and moo cows come from. Blame Kent Hovind, et. al. It's almost clinical for me watching Creation and "Evolution" debates degenerate from "so what about Basilisaurus?" to "but where did the first life originat from" in 3 posts. It speaks to how desperate must Creationists are.

I am in complete agreement.
 
432 + 234 = 666, therefore you are a deceiver and we must infer that evolution is true.

Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Of course, there are multitudes of quotes against evolution religious theory because nature and creation itself is full of contradictions against this religion.

And so a few real quotes get through as the mainstream religionists can not censor every true scientist.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Evolutionisareligion.html

How about you name some scientists, some biology scientists, who disagree with evolution?

I think you'll find that hard, given that evolution is an obvservable fact.
 
Of course, there are multitudes of quotes against evolution religious theory because nature and creation itself is full of contradictions against this religion.

And so a few real quotes get through as the mainstream religionists can not censor every true scientist.

h++p://ww.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Evolutionisareligion.html

That could be the most logically flawed, poorly informed piece of drivel that I've ever had the misfortune of reading.
 

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