Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[LAL]

LAL, I'm quoting Ray's post as I'm curious about this too. (Not in the Q&A.)

They are two different events. There was activity throughout the winter and early spring. Huntster found a link to a report that's apparently a third trackway event.

The double trackway was filmed by the Columbian's camera crew. I don't know where the film is now. I haven't found a report on the websites, but Ed can be seen on The Mysterious Monsters with Peter Graves talking about the discovery. There's a shot of a trackway in snow, but it looks like a different one - single.

Ed was the photographer on the paper at the time and had a farm north of Carson. I knew Roy Craft, the owner of the paper, too. He was one of the people who followed the double trackway. These guys were leading citizens in town, and would have had much to lose by phonying up anything. I've mentioned before, Skamania County did not want tourism and did not get it to any significant degree until after the Scenic Act passed nearly thirty years later.

 

[William Parcher]

Listen what I meant was...Bigfoot Fan does not have any proof that Bigfeetsus exists...therefore... Hoaxing, Lying, Misidentification and Hallucination are far far more likely than a heretofore undocumented Hairy North American Biped of Unusual Size...in fact of the 5 possibilities a Bigfeetsus should rank fifth until such time as you the Tru Bleevers prove that the furry bastard exists.

Mad, I think there should only be three possibilities:

1) Real Bigfoot
2) Misidentification
3) Hoaxing

Hallucinations are misidentifications. Lying is hoaxing. Believing that a hoax is real is misidentification.

 

[LAL]

LAL...you have never seen Sportscenter a day in your life have you??

No, and I don't want to. I have read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, though.

The Oakland Raiders (a full contact American tackle football team) has a particularly enthusiastic and widespread fanbase...known affectionately as Raider Nation. Bigfoot Nation is a slight variation on that.

Too clever.

Oh...and I never said it was around in 1969....although it may have been in it's infancy at the time and has spread to what it is today...a particularly enthusiastic and widespread fanbase.

Maybe, thanks to TV and the Internet. In 1969 there were a very few researchers and a dearth of publicity. Bossburg was the same year in the same state and I knew nothing about it until I found Krantz' Big Footprints at the Stevenson library a decade later.

 

[LTC8K6]

You mean the 7 mile track claim is a lie?

How many skewfoot tracks were documented at bossburg?

 

[William Parcher]

Thanks to a Bigfooter in Virginia, the question of that foot found in the trash is becoming more insane day-by-day.

Richmond Times-Dispatch

William M. Dranginis, who operates the Virginia Bigfoot Research Organization, has offered to have DNA samples, if he can obtain them, tested by experts, including renowned primatologist Jane Goodall. Dranginis said he has already made arrangements with Goodall in case an unidentified creature is ever found.

"You prepare for this," he said in a phone interview yesterday.

Goodall has said she is certain Bigfoot creatures exist in nature.

"Dr. Goodall is curious and keeps an open mind on the subject," Nona Gandelman, a spokeswoman for the Jane Goodall Institute in Arlington, said yesterday, adding that Goodall was traveling and not immediately available for comment.

I think Goodall may have to put her foot down and try to stop Bigfooters from using her as some sort of marketing tool. Goodall probably meant that she would examine or make comments on a Bigfoot specimen, not a bear's foot.

 

[LTC8K6]

I didn't know that Jane did DNA testing...

 

[Mad Hom]

Mad, I think there should only be three possibilities:

1) Real Bigfoot
2) Misidentification
3) Hoaxing

Hallucinations are misidentifications. Lying is hoaxing. Believing that a hoax is real is misidentification.

Ok Parch I'll give in..3 it is....I guess I was differentiating between someone who was 'hoaxed" without knowing it and someone who was just outright lying about seeing one or whatever myriad traces it may have left behind.

As for hallucinating and misidentification...I guess I thought misidentification was when they saw a bear but thought it was a Bigfeetsus and hallucinating was when they thought they saw something when their wasn't anything there at all.

Whichever...3 is a more streamlined number anyhow.

 

[LAL]

Mad, I think there should only be three possibilities:

1) Real Bigfoot
2) Misidentification
3) Hoaxing

Hallucinations are misidentifications. Lying is hoaxing. Believing that a hoax is real is misidentification.

I had a moment of "buck fever" once, where a doe nearly stepped into the road, but all it took was a blink of the eyes to turn her back into a log. Some observations have been for relatively long periods, like 20 minutes or more. Schizophrenics I have known didn't hallucinate Bigfoot.

There are a few reports that indicate medication might be in order, but they aren't like the usual, run-of-the-mill reports.

Briefs sightings could be misidentification, but it's hard to see how anyone could look at a sasquatch (or three) for twenty minutes and not notice it's really a bear.

Career suicide has already been mentioned. Why would reputable people want to lie about what they've seen?

There have been hoaxes. They're usually transparent and easily exposed, to paraphrase someone who's said exposing hoaxes is part of the effort. I would favor legislation to provide severe penalties for anyone caught hoaxing.

Nothing ever seems to happen to perpetrators. Why is that?

 

[Mad Hom]

I had a moment of "buck fever" once, where a doe nearly stepped into the road, but all it took was a blink of the eyes to turn her back into a log. Some observations have been for relatively long periods, like 20 minutes or more. Schizophrenics I have known didn't hallucinate Bigfoot.

There are a few reports that indicate medication might be in order, but they aren't like the usual, run-of-the-mill reports.

Briefs sightings could be misidentification, but it's hard to see how anyone could look at a sasquatch (or three) for twenty minutes and not notice it's really a bear.

Career suicide has already been mentioned. Why would reputable people want to lie about what they've seen?

There have been hoaxes. They're usually transparent and easily exposed, to paraphrase someone who's said exposing hoaxes is part of the effort. I would favor legislation to provide severe penalties for anyone caught hoaxing.

Nothing ever seems to happen to perpetrators. Why is that?

What pray tell my dear LAL...are they exactly perpetrating?? I mean do they seek to profit at the expense of others?? I think they do it for laughs or to keep the myth alive....forget penalizing them...you should be thanking them...without them you don't have much.

 

[William Parcher]

She doesn't do DNA testing. But it's much worse than that. In the article she is said to be "certain Bigfoot creatures exist in nature." In her NPR Ira Flatow interview, she also said that Bigfoot might not exist.

Authorities halted the search Monday morning after receiving word that the state medical examiner's office in Richmond determined the foot belonged to an apelike species, based on the bone structure revealed through X-rays. At the time, the sheriff said he considered the case pretty much closed unless someone came forward with information.

We are going to find out that the Virginia state medical examiner was wrong when he declared that the foot belongs to an apelike species.

I hope Goodall finds a nice way to tell Dranginis that he is a fool to think this is a Bigfoot foot and also is a fool for bringing her name up about this in the media. What an idiot.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

OK, count me in. Labeling the photo's as they appear:

A B
C D

a) dessication ridges
b) alleged detail
c) known detail
d) dessication ridges

What do I get if I win?

You nailed it ..

I wanted to arrange for Lu to put you on ' ignore ' as a prize, but since she has me on ignore, I couldn't pull it off ..

I'm proud to announce Lu now has me on ignore at BFF ..

Interestingly ( or not ... ), it was because I pointed out, she was avoiding the obvious difference between casting artifacts and real dermal ridges as shown in these images...

I find it really painfull that people like Chilcutt and Meldrum seem to be ignoring it also ..

 

[LAL]

You mean the 7 mile track claim is a lie?

Of course not. What part of different trackways don't you understand? Bossburg is over 400 miles from Carson.

How many skewfoot tracks were documented at bossburg?

1089 were counted in one trackway. There were casts taken near the dump, photos................we've been over this.

The condition was consistant with metatarsus adductus rather than skewfoot.

I thought you weren't going to reply to me ever again 'cause I'm a jerk.

 

[William Parcher]

Ok Parch I'll give in..3 it is....I guess I was differentiating between someone who was 'hoaxed" without knowing it and someone who was just outright lying about seeing one or whatever myriad traces it may have left behind.

As for hallucinating and misidentification...I guess I thought misidentification was when they saw a bear but thought it was a Bigfeetsus and hallucinating was when they thought they saw something when their wasn't anything there at all.

Whichever...3 is a more streamlined number anyhow.

You shouldn't feel like "giving in" to the three cateories. They make perfect sense. If a person believes that a faked footprint is real, they have committed a misidentification (unable to distinguish real from not real). Hallucinations are a wildcard, but they are still misidentifications. The person cannot distinguish a hallucinated "image" from a real one. It doesn't deserve its own special category.

 

[LAL]

What pray tell my dear LAL...are they exactly perpetrating?? I mean do they seek to profit at the expense of others?? I think they do it for laughs or to keep the myth alive....forget penalizing them...you should be thanking them...without them you don't have much.

They waste the time and resources of serious investigators. There should be a means of getting reimbursed for time and travel if nothing else.

Thank them? I'd as soon hang them up by their thumbs.

 

[Huntster]

.....Whether or not there are creatures behind the phenomenom, the phenomenom itself is undeniable. I would say it would be more educational to ask why than to say no.

Let me know when/if you do have a question.

And with that, I find that I do have a question for you:

Since you realize that (creature or not) there is definately a phenomenon occurring, what do you think about the question I've posed repeatedly to skeptics regarding the similarities and differences with regard to the sasquatch phenomenon between Kodiak Island and Prince of Wales Island in Alaska?

I had compared sasquatch reports on Prince of Wales Island in SE Alaska to Kodiak Island. Both islands are large (#2 and #3 largest under the U.S. flag), both islands have significant salmon runs, have a similar population, and that population is predominately native.

POW Island is densely forested, has a very high density of sasquatch reports, as well as native lore about them, has no brown bears at all, and has one of the highest black bear densities in North America.

Kodiak Island is not densely forested, has one of the highest brown bear densities on Earth, has no black bears at all, has no sasquatch reports, and no native sasquatch lore.

 

[Mad Hom]

They waste the time and resources of serious investigators. There should be a means of getting reimbursed for time and travel if nothing else.

Thank them? I'd as soon hang them up by their thumbs.

C'mon LAL...if someone decides to follow up on a claimed Bigfeetsus sighting or trackway discovery etc etc it's really on them to deal with the expense of time and travel...based simply on what it is that they are following up on.

I could see if hoaxers contacted the police or whatever than it would just be falsifying a police report I believe...of which I have no idea what the fine/penalty is.

 

[LAL]

Sweat are you or are you not going to regail upon us your Big Boy list of 'Reliable Evidence"? Or are you going to continue to bray like an injured jackass??

Maybe you two could take it to the Flame Wars so the rest of us can get on with it without all the distraction?

 

[LTC8K6]

The lore accounts for the belief and thus the reports.

 

[William Parcher]

I had a moment of "buck fever" once, where a doe nearly stepped into the road, but all it took was a blink of the eyes to turn her back into a log. Some observations have been for relatively long periods, like 20 minutes or more. Schizophrenics I have known didn't hallucinate Bigfoot.

The reason why hallucinations are "wildcards" is because it is used to describe what may have happened to a person. There is no way to prove it, and skeptics should tread lightly when thinking about declaring that someone was hallucinating. It is used to describe others, not yourself. Nobody would say (about themself) that they were hallucinating and saw a Bigfoot. You won't hear, "I believe Bigfoot exists because I hallucinated one."

There are a few reports that indicate medication might be in order, but they aren't like the usual, run-of-the-mill reports.

Are those reports immediately discarded because medication was involved?

Briefs sightings could be misidentification, but it's hard to see how anyone could look at a sasquatch (or three) for twenty minutes and not notice it's really a bear.

Agreed. But are you basing your belief in Bigfoot upon a "difficulty of the imagination"?

Career suicide has already been mentioned. Why would reputable people want to lie about what they've seen?

How many examples can you come up with where people's careers have been destroyed because they made a Bigfoot claim?

There have been hoaxes. They're usually transparent and easily exposed, to paraphrase someone who's said exposing hoaxes is part of the effort.

Is there not such a thing as an undetected hoax? Isn't there a problem when you say something isn't hoaxed, but somebody else says it is hoaxed? Then what?

I would favor legislation to provide severe penalties for anyone caught hoaxing.

Are you kidding? A special law for Bigfoot hoaxers? Would you like Bob Gimlin to be the first one charged under this new law? Heironimus goes on trial too because he confessed to the crime of hoaxing.

Nothing ever seems to happen to perpetrators. Why is that?

You tell me. I think it's because most people are too smart to care about it. If I walk out in my backyard tonight and start howling at the moon, should my neighbor report me to the police for hoaxing a coyote?

 

[Huntster]

I had compared sasquatch reports on Prince of Wales Island in SE Alaska to Kodiak Island. Both islands are large (#2 and #3 largest under the U.S. flag), both islands have significant salmon runs, have a similar population, and that population is predominately native.

POW Island is densely forested, has a very high density of sasquatch reports, as well as native lore about them, has no brown bears at all, and has one of the highest black bear densities in North America.

Kodiak Island is not densely forested, has one of the highest brown bear densities on Earth, has no black bears at all, has no sasquatch reports, and no native sasquatch lore.

The lore accounts for the belief and thus the reports.

Why does Prince of Wales Island "have the lore" and Kodiak Island does not?

What came first? The chicken or the egg?