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Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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Actually, I was born in Calgary but hey, nobody's perfect. I only lived there till I was two and raised in Victoria.

I remembered Victoria, anyway.

If I looked like Bindernagel I could forget any photo shoots. (hey, there's a tidbit!) It shouldn't be hard finding a photo of me to post if one wanted.

Martial Arts? Rock star? I'm afraid I lost track after Jacki Chan and Alice Cooper.

Strangely, one of my cyber friends found the photo of me two days after I posted it well away from any boards.
Hey, I check links, dang it. Not shy of nail polish, also.

Glad to hear it. Dr. Sarmiento has long hair.

If you're just asking for tea in general, say 'ocha',

I think that's all they had at the restaurant. Kocha is black, isn't it? In Japan I had to go outside and point to models of the food. Would that have been several levels down at Shinosaka station? I remember the boat ride to Kobe and the "roof garden", which turned out to be a potted palm and six potato chip chairs. I loved the flowery way of putting things.

Pssssssssssst. Why don't you ask DY for the source of that photo again. It's getting obvious he's never going to tell me.
 
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Well, I think, since he's busy man, you'd be more likely to get a reply to a short, to-the-point e-mail.
As long as the question is addressed, that's enough.
I'm afraid by mentioning me, you've queered it.
Why's that? You might have advised me not to mention you because...
He's already stated his opinion of the "other lists" I post on.
...is quite clearly addressed in my e-mail to him. Does any one think he shouldn't be interested in addressing my question or care to speculate what the answer might entail?
 
That Elk looks like it is rolling over to get up, Lu. So it would not leave prints in the middle of it's body print.

I think I've been here before.

Here is an elk video. You will see the big fellow roll over to get up. Later you will see him drop straight down to his knees and then lay on his side. He is not messing up his body print with his hooves or knees at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFuFpWCtYyU
 
Something like that.Watching LMS it's hard to forget.I thought he already answered that.

In his own inimitable way, perhaps, but I saw no link to any webites.

And speaking of hairs, what about those hairs that were retrieved from the cast that were not elk, coyote, bear, or deer, but did match samples of purported sasquatch hairs under the microscope.

Did you check TrapOne.com?

Ah, is that what it is? I was reading it Tri(?)One and getting nothing. I'm not that up on photo archives. Back soon. (I chased Greg over about three threads on BFF trying to get a source, so I can't say I'm new at this.)

I've been searching the Official Skookum Cast Thread (man, what a read!) and finally found Rick's reasons for thinking as he does:

"My thoughts on purported Sasquatch getting up from the Skookum impression from studying the impression, the cast, the replicas, elk and gorilla behavior and simulating the process with my own body.

Imprint Observations:

1. Wet side of impression is closest to the purported arm impression.
2. Purported left heel with proud Achilles tendon is on wet side.
3. Dr. LeRoy Fish’s boot print is on dry side (one imprint deep, one very shallow indicating approaching hard dry surface the further out on that side).
4. Two Elk hooves slips are next to the boot print on the dry side… slipping towards the wet side indicting an elk walked up to the area from the dry side, slipped into some softer stuff, maybe to try and get some apple bits left over.
5. With the animal already seated, the ground was cold and hard, frost heaved. The body weight and heat started melting the mud, squishing it out and around the heaviest portions in contact with the mud… the buttocks.
6. There is no tail. Even if there were a tail, I can not think of a reason for it to have made an impression in the substrate.
7. There are two buttock impressions with an area in between detailing the groin area.
8. There are two thigh areas impressed, one upper underside fairly complete and one smaller section.
9. The cast area was not able to capture all impressions found at the site but I would estimate it contains 98% of what was seen there. There is the possibility that some parts of the impression were not recognized at the time of casting but a thorough search by 6 team members showed that there was not.
10. Skin and hair patterns are distinctly different. The skin areas are not hair caked with mud. Other areas do not show this and the skin patch areas are logical in their locations. The edges of hair growth could have clumped together strands of hair, hanging down over portions of skin areas though.
11. The purported arms close proximity to the upper thigh was struck twice, with a skin patch where one would expect to see the elbow region.
12. The arm is not triangular in shape; it is cylindrical, tapering only at the wrist region. This area was disturbed more so than any other area of the impression indicating good articulation beyond this joint. This is more inline with a primate arm and hand than an ungulates leg and foot.
13. The heel impressions indicate two separate appendages. One is lined up fairly well with the purported upper thigh region. The other set is approx. 10 inches away and on the opposite side of the upper thigh from the purported arm region indicating a natural position - where as all impressions of legs and hooves of an ungulate would be either on one side of the animal or underneath.
14. There are two impressions of the arm, one less distinct or deep. They are overlapped in such a way as to indicate that they are the same limb (edge effects showing no gaps of two separate limbs overlaid) striking twice.
15. Hair collected here and at other places by Dr. Henner F. does not show them to be hollow like ungulates. Hollow hair is a natural insulator and would not transfer heat to the ground as easily as primates.
16. At least one hair came back from Henner as similar to his collection of purported Sasquatch hair.
17. Dr. LeRoy Fish retained more hair samples than was given to Henner and he stated that he saw several more hairs similar to the collection as well.
18. No loose mud was noticed in impression, as if falling off from an animal’s body.
19. During video work, quite often the camera man is not directly behind the camera. While videoing the gorilla at Woodland Park Zoo I stood off to the left of camera several times so as to not inadvertently disturb the sequence. I observed the gorilla placing its left upper arm against its left upper thigh while reaching for some apples. Only a small snippet of the video has been made available to the public.
20. In studying four elk videos taken by Dr. Bam Bam, all got to their feet or laid down with all four feet beneath them. Their skeletal structure does not allow for rotating shoulder joints.

Possible scenario:

1. The left leg is bent with the heel of the foot pressed into the mud 90 degrees from the wet area.
2. The body is twisted a bit with the right leg impacting the mud once and the foot several times, one of which, the last impact, shows the side of the foot.
3. Right leg straightens and the underside of the right knee impacts a small pushed up mound of mud, leaving an impression at 30 degrees to the impression norm and showing hair pattern matching the upper thigh impression length and direction.
4. It is possible that limb proportions are different than humans, meaning the upper arm could be longer allowing the lower arm to reach closer to the ground. It could also be that the upper torso is not as long, making the arms appear longer than a human.
5. The animal rolls away from the wet area to stand back up, possibly using a hand in the dry area and leaving clean imprints of body impressions and more weight forced downward on the left foot for purchase in the muddier sections."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=15671&st=525

Here's the scanned photo again. You can see the bootprint. In the book you can see the hair.
 

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That Elk looks like it is rolling over to get up, Lu. So it would not leave prints in the middle of it's body print.

I think I've been here before.

Here is an elk video. You will see the big fellow roll over to get up. Later you will see him drop straight down to his knees and then lay on his side. He is not messing up his body print with his hooves or knees at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFuFpWCtYyU

Good find. It clearly shows him gathering his legs under him in order to get up right at the beginning. This one shows him dropping to his knees before rolling to his side at the edge of the wallow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLcv35EglYc&mode=related&search=
 
This is what I got for TrapOne.com. Not it, but strangely fitting in its way.

http://trapone.com/
That's weird but understandable that you responded to my post a couple pages back in which I answered your question if anyone could read the bottom of the image but seemed to miss that.

Anyway, I admit I didn't bother checking the site before now and it is funny.
 
Got over a dozen samples of hair identified as "primate" or unknown that match no known mammal, but do match each other.

Fahrenbach has the hair, I believe.

I take it she means the ones that are, as Dr. Fahrenbach said on November 3, 1999, "all effectively indistinguishable from a human hair" ? On that same date seven years ago, he also said, "I am concentrating now on blood or tissue, as the hair holds no promise."

LAL said:
Meldrum has close to 200 casts, including an "anatomically correct" cast of an impression of female buttocks.
Cool, a companion piece to the testicle-imprints-left-behind Skookum cast. Anyone know any further details on this female buttcast?

LAL said:
In all these years debunkers have completely failed to prove it's a hoax.
LAL should read Krantz.

"The skeptics are under no obligation to disprove all or, for that matter, any of the evidence. The burden of proof rests with those who think that the animals are real. The skeptics are not obligated even to look at the evidence." -- Grover Krantz, Big Footprints, page 7
LAL said:
Fact is, huge amounts of padding would have been needed. The shoulder joints are a foot farther [a]part than on a man of comparable size...
Say what? Firstly, there is no way to accurately measure the shoulder width of the Patterson subject. Secondly, my own simple experiment showed how difficult it is to obtain accurate measurements from a photo. If I stand with my back flat against the wall, mark a point at the outside edge of the top of my shoulders, and measure the distance between the two points, I end up with 21.5". So, we know for a fact that my shoulders are 21.5" wide. However, this picture shows me standing with two chessboards pressed flat against my chest.

redlined.jpg


The chessboards are held edge-to-edge, and measure 26 and 3/4" wide. The red line equates to the location of the line on the image used in both Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us (page 445), and Big Footprints (page 105). The line in those two publications is 34" wide, but based on a guesstimated height of 80" (6'8"). In my own case, if I stand really straight, I hit 6' even. Grover later (page 118) states that the Patterson subject has an "observed 28.2-inch shoulder width".

Getting back to the red line in my picture, the chessboards are 26 and 3/4" wide, and I seem to be VERY close to the 28.2" width that Grover talks about. (and only about 7" smaller than the over-inflated drawings in both his book and John Green's). So I'm actually 21.5", but a picture might show me as much as 27" or more, and from no more than 10' from the camera, with my back directly facing that camera. Why would I require 'huge' amounts of padding to look similar to the Patterson subject?

LAL said:
If it's so easy to build a suit with all that padding, prosthetics and realistic fur, why haven't we seen one yet?
Someone tell LAL to read Krantz (page 7).

LAL said:
I don't. Glickman used a formula.
Yes, but LAL hasn't mentioned that Glickman also estimated the height based on the length of stride. How exactly is that an accurate method of determining height?

LAL said:
Biscardi's credibility is zip.
Why should Biscardi's credibility be any better or worse than Marx or Freeman?

LAL said:
Do you know what bigfoot investigators are doing?
Surely LAL realizes that some like to rehash old reports as though that will make bigfoot real.

LAL said:
Because, to my knowlege, he hasn't seen the original or tried to tried to fit actual pieces of elk to it.
How about replicating the original experiment? You know, setting up similar conditions in the hopes of capturing bigfoot on film, or getting a clearer buttprint, or well-defined footprint, or some other supportive evidence. Rick Knoll playing around with an elk knee isn't exactly a convincing scientific approach.

LAL said:
Swindler is a professor Emeritus, the author of the standard work on primate anatomy. He's a giant in a related field. He examined the original quite thoroughly. He just might know what he's talking about.
If so he's been surprisingly quiet about his thoughts/findings. Where might one read of his scientific summation/abstract about the Skookum cast?

RayG
 
.......

Cool, a companion piece to the testicle-imprints-left-behind Skookum cast. Anyone know any further details on this female buttcast?

...........
RayG
I think she may be refering to another Freeman gem. There is a picture in Meldrum's new book .. I'm afraid to ask why they haved deemed it ' female ' ..

There are no further details. It is typical of all Bigfoot evidence ..
The Bigfoot experts have ruled out everything but Bigfoot, so it must have been made by a Bigfoot.. :rolleyes:
 
That's weird but understandable that you responded to my post a couple pages back in which I answered your question if anyone could read the bottom of the image but seemed to miss that.

Here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2297974&postcount=1063

I was on my way out and just skimming posts.

lll TrapOne-photo archive lll and combinations thereof gets me nothing but error messages. Back to square one; still the need the source.

Anyway, I admit I didn't bother checking the site before now and it is funny.

Yep. So's this:

urinalmor.jpg
 
These are all the elk prints found in the cast. They're transitting, and not in the right positions for a rising elk.

post-595-1153208529_thumb.jpg
 
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Anyone else having trouble with time outs and errors?
 
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Well, kitakaze, I just read your whole letter to Dr. Meldrum, finally. It's really very nice. I don't think we'll get him to post - he has a full teaching schedule, appearances, six sons and a wife (who may be having trouble remembering what he looks like) - but we can hope. I'll scour another list for anything else he might have said that would be relevant to whatever discussion we're having here.

I wish I knew the name of the independent lab, but here's this on the hairs.

"While the DNA tests have not been completed, the hair samples have been determined by an independent lab to belong to an "unknown primate," Noll said.

"It didn't match humans," he said. "And they were tapered at the ends, meaning they had never been cut."

Both the hairs and the castings have been shown to experts who are convinced that they didn't come from an elk, deer or bear."

http://www.heraldnet.com/bigfoot/story13353257.cfm

Not too many errors in the story; at least she spelled Rick's last name correctly.
 
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If Tube is right - he should have been able to duplicate his work using the soil from Onion Mountain - question is, why cant he? Can you answer that DY? I doubt it. Why don't you try to be a little objective in your thinking for once and ask yourself - why hasn't Tube duplicated his work, or why haven't I been able to? According to him it shouldn't be that difficult, so why is it?

My work at least proves one thing - creating these dermals is not half as easy as Tube would like us all to believe, if that were the case I would have admitted defeat by now - and happily, as I am frankly tired of having dirt and casting agents in my apartment..

Please forgive a novice what may, perhaps be a few basic questions, but what are your implications here?

Are you suggesting that Tube has somehow hoaxed the data that he has come up with?

Are you suggesting that he has photoshopped the pictures that appear on his web site so the casting artifacts he claims are not genuine?

Are you suggesting that he has created some sort of mold that produces what appears to be casting artifacts?

Are you suggesting that he is trying to pass off real bigfoot prints as ones he has created in his experiments?
 
Best Evidence: Bigfoot

Actor quickly and easily duplicates Patty's gait. Both with and without a costume on. Walked exactly like Patty.

Meldrum agrees and is surprised at the experiment's results.

Falls back on inability to make costume in 1967 and the fact that not everything in PGF was reproduced.

SFX guy Dick Smith thinks it may be a costume in the PGF.

So much for the gait, though....
 
So why do you bring it up again?
Oh, I was the one who raised the large chimps issue...

There was a discussion on BFF about game cams being used in a wildcat survey picking up something they couldn't identify. Seems the info was promptly pulled from the Internet, but possibly there are shots of something that couldn't be identified. A couple of researchers have noted possible activity seems to stop when the game cams go up.
I'm sorry, but possible shots of something that could not be identified and were promptly removed from the internet is very far from being considered reliable evidence. Maybe conspiracy theorists, UFOlogists and paranormal researchers think otherwise...

And the claim bigfeet know when game cams are active is... Well... I am having a hard time trying to find polite words to describe it...

But occasional glimpses and more indistinct footprint finds even by wildlife experts (got those already) aren't going to do much to budge science.
LAL, I can't imagine how a professional who deals with wildlife, after seeing such a creature, would not use his/hers expertise and a lot of his/hers efforts to make some serious study attempts. More on this later.

Most weren't. I can think of several investigators who were.
Thus, as I've been pointing out, if these creatures are real, there's no need for a fully dedicated bigfoot project to find reliable evidence. The "no one is looking for them" line is a dead end.

Got over a dozen samples of hair identified as "primate" or unknown that match no known mammal...snip...
See RayG's post no. 1150 regarding the "hair evidence", as well as when it comes accepting "evidence" provided by Marx, Freeman, Biscardi and similar "investigators" and Patty´s measures.

BTW, so many hairs and no reliable DNA assay results avaliable?

It will probably take habituation to get the kind of evidence you want (unless someone gets a clear shot). And that will take funding for long stays in the field. How long did it take Goodall to get close to "her" chimps?
Nope. "Habituation" is not really needed to obtain the sort of evidence I consider as reliable. All it takes is the creature to be real.

The Goodall comparsion is not valid. She needed time to be accepted by the group and come within touching distance from them. Snapshots (camera or rifle) require habituation? Collecting hair, food remains or scat samples require habituation? Roadkills need habituation? Fossils require habituation?

The PGF was shaky because Roger was running, and, at one point, trying to wind the camera.
Is this supposed to somehow validate it?

...snip...Got some evidence Green, Abbott, Summerlin, Meldrum, Akin, Heryford, Closner, or the other rangers casting at the site of Freeman's sighting, e.g., faked anything?
Got some evidence they were not fooled or mistaken somehow? And took casts/pictures of what they thought were real bigfoot footprints?

Please check this quote from Desertyeti from 2004:
...snip...
What was that supposed to mean?
I fail to see how the quote provides any support to any claim about the reality of bigfoot.

Fishy? Like those lines that show up on real animals? Gimlin not seeing Patterson's horse fall on him? DeAtely not remembering how the film was sent?
Many fishy issues rearding the story and the film's subject have already been pointed out. Scroll back the threads if you want to remember them.

If you want fishy, read Long. In all these years debunkers have completely failed to prove it's a hoax....snip...
And have you defenders managed to prove its not a fraud?
No.

...snip... IM index is between 80-90 (88 from the digitalization), not the sort of thing that could be faked using simple extensions.
Hey LAL, what´s the IM of Barney?
program-art-barney.gif

You Barney scoffics refuse to see its proportions can not be human!

And then there's that gait. The movement is smooth and natural, like a real animal. The muscles move correctly.
Please check post 1159 by LTC8K6, as well as tube's personal experience with "compliant gait". The gait went down the drain.
I see no muscles moving correctly at PGF.

If it's so easy to build a suit with all that padding, prosthetics and realistic fur, why haven't we seen one yet?



I don't. Glickman used a formula.
Farenbach also used formulae. This produces theoric results that to be confirmed, need to be compared against the real deal. Since as far as I know there are no specimens avaliable... Jumping from a log, walking with someone over the shoulders and comparing impression depth, are not reliable indicators of weight. Neither is saying "wow, the impressions were pretty deep, must have been made by a very heavy animal".

I've lived in the US all my life, in five different states. I can't say I've noticed Americans being into mythology (other than in their religious traditions). Maybe things are different in Brazil. Again, point me to studies that back up your argument.
LAL, please, if you want to discuss mithology, first you must know what a myth truly is. It is quite clear for me, from your previous posts and for this particular line: "I can't say I've noticed Americans being into mythology (other than in their religious traditions)." that you are not familiar with the concept of myth. You may know lots of myths, but for some reason you are not aware of what a myth is, the many ways it may have been formed, the many meanings it may have, the many shapes it may take, etc. Read Campbell, you will find examples there.

Oh, thunderbirds are examples of Native American myths incorporated in to current USA culture. Canada has Ogopogo. Or you think those are real critters?

I can also point to the persons who, despite not being Native Americans adopted (at least partially) their religion.

Why do you keep bringing that up? I never have. Biscardi's credibility is zip.
As is Marx's and Freeman's. Why keep bringing "evidence" produced by them?
Why should anyone take footprints or handprints casts produced by them as material that allows inference on bigfoot's anatomy?


Much of his argument rests on hair flow, with 60% missing from the copy, according to Caddy, and and a misidentified joint print.
Hair flow... Yeah... Are you sure 60% of it are missing at the copy?
Are you sure its the definitive, the most important evidence?
The shape of the impressions matching elk's body parts is not important...
Elk footprints also are not...
No bigfoot footprints being arouns is also a mere detail...
Oh, wait, we have testicle prints!
I'm convinced...<-that was sarcasm

Maybe you did. Did you have a mentor? Did you respect his opinions? Were they to be thrown out just because he was an authority?
Since I graduated and took my MsC and PhD grades, I had not one but a number of mentors. I heard them and their other "disciples", other experts (with similar or dissonant opinions) and their disciples as well. I analised the evidence they showed and their conclusions. Some times I agreeded, other times I disagreeded. We had lots of healthy headbutting. Some times I lost, some times I won.

I had and will still have a lot of headbutting in my life ("giants in my field" included). My formers and current jobs require it. Only at the very beggining of my academic and professional life I accepted an argument from authority. I found out pretty soon that those who use them quite often have nothing but hot smelly air to defend their point.

After looking at what bigfoot investigators present as evidence and their reasonings, I concluded that its quite likely they are wrong.

Swindler is a professor Emeritus, the author of the standard work on primate anatomy. He's a giant in a related field. He examined the original quite thoroughly. He just might know what he's talking about.
Great. Then why he has not used the full weight of his credentials and influence to back the much-dreamed bigfoot project? Why a single (refused) abstract?

I can think of a couple of answers...

And I'm not selling. If you don't like what I have to say, stop reading my posts.
You are trying to defend a claim. You are trying to convince me that what I consider as unreliable evidence is actually reliable. You are trying to "sell" them. I'm not convinced, I'm not buying.

I present you the very advise you gave me: If you don't like my posts, don't read them, don't answer them. Put me on ignore and keep your business as usual.
 
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