Homeopathy is everywhere!

Dub

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Joined
Nov 25, 2001
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I recently have been looking after some orpahned baby rats. When searching the net for advice on how to care for them I came across what appears to be a fairly good page, with a good amount of information. The page however advocates using homeopathic medicines to care for illnesses! Seems ignorance is widespread. :mad:

Caring for orphaned baby rats
 
Yep, it was mentioned in an episode of "Sex and the City" recently, and of course, health food stores make a ton of money off of selling the most expensive bottled water on earth!
 
Agreed, I've seen advocates of homeopathy quackery on many woowoo pet health sites. Troubling enough, but some of these fools even go as far as to use worthless nosodes instead of vaccinations, even for rabies.
 
I like the part where they ween the elephant off ibuprofen right as it is getting better- then give it homeo solutions and viola! The homeopathic stuff did 100% of the work! This is the same switch the bait trick the acupuncturist is doing on the Komodo dragon- it gets both antibiotics plus acupuncture. Hmmm...
 
Youngblood said:
sorry for my ignorance, but what is homeopathy?
A quick search for Homeopathy on Dictionary.com gave me these results:
A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy individuals similar to those of the disease itself.

Philosopher Yahweh says "asking questions in pursuit of growing more knowledgeable is never ignorant".
 
Also check out the links at the following website:

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/

Scroll down to the links that begin at the following paragraph:

Lectures given by Jacques Benveniste at the Cavendish Laboratory colloquium on his controversial high-dilution experiments, including abstract and a review of the talk

comment on the controversial aspect of the talk

Benveniste's home page

Benveniste reports on his own latest memory of water research
new research supports Jacques Benveniste's controversial 1988 paper on biological activity of highly diluted solutions

See also

Is homeopathy nonsense? (and why it may not be)
 
Steve,

Can you point to one single scientific experiment on homeopathy which showed a positive result, and which has been replicated by independent researchers?

Isn't it true that everytime Benveniste's results have been tried replicated, it has failed?

Since homeopathy is so widely used, it must be easy to point to these replications. Heck, we should be able to do it in high school physics/biology by now. After two hundred years, Steve: Where is the confirmation that homeopathy works?

And I'm not talking about placebo, you know that....
 
CFLarsen said:
Check out the SkepticDictionary on homeopathy.
To be honest, when I first heard of homeopathy, I thought it was legitimate. It sounded very similar to inoculation and vaccination. I looked into it a bit and found it has about the same scientific legitimacy as psychic surgery.
 
I find the notion of homeopathy far fetched as well and pesonally have a difficult time udnerstanding its claims or how it could possibly work. However, in the interests of answering Claus' question, well his assertion, about nothing having been proved in the 200 years since Samuel Hahnemann developed his theories concerning this subject, it is important to understand that there are even recent research findings which need to be dealt with and confirmed in the lab (as opposed to a Randi engineered television stunt to discredit) if in fact they are replicable at all.

As I understand it, basic research is currently being conducted on three levels :

- confirming the activity of high dilutions; ;

- developing research devoted to the pharmacology of homeopathic dilutions;

- comprehending the mechanisms of action of homeopathic medicines.


Three topics of study are regularly published in peer reviewed scientific journals :

- The Biological Action of Dilutions of Aspirin, Professor DOUTREMEPUICH (University of Bordeaux, France)
- The Synergistic Effects of Dilutions of Antitumoral Agents Professor BONAVIDA (UCLA, USA)
- The Effect of Dilutions of Antigens and Various Biological Factors on the Activity of Basophil Leukocytes Dr. SAINTE-LAUDY (France), Professor MANNAIONNI (University of Florence, Italy), Professor ENNIS (Queen's University, Belfast).

The Biological Action of Dilutions of Aspirin, Professor DOUTREMEPUICH (University of Bordeaux, France)


In the past ten years, studies have been conducted in the Hematology Department of the School of Pharmacy of Bordeaux (France).

Researchers have developed an experimental model that consists of provoking the destruction of intima cells (the most inward layer of cells) of the vascular wall in the mesenteric vessels of rats. This tiny lesion is enough to provoke platelet aggregation in situ. In a few seconds, the platelet aggregate forms a thrombus, accompanied by the emission of emboli in approximately six minutes. After having defined the validity and sensitivity of this experimental model, the authors conducted a comparative study on the effect of injecting several dilutions of aspirin (of between 100 mg/kg and 30 CH) on several parameters:

- area of thrombus provoked by arteriolar lesion and by venous lesion,
- number of emboli induced by arteriolar lesion and by venous lesion,
- length of embolization period induced by arteriolar lesion and by venous lesion,
- amplitude and speed of platelet aggregation (in vitro).

All in vivo studies are conducted under the microscope; the phenomena are recorded by video camera then analyzed automatically.

Generally, on each of the parameters studied, it appears that:
- aspirin at high concentrations (100 mg/kg) induces a decrease in platelet aggregation (amplitude and speed), as well as a decrease in the area of the thrombi (arterial and venous) and the number of emboli (arterials and venous);
- aspirin at ultra-low doses (9, 15, 30 CH) induces an increase in platelet aggregation (amplitude and speed), as well as an increase in the area of thrombi (arterial and venous) and the number of emboli (arterial and venous);
- the anti-aggregation and antithrombotic action of aspirin at high concentrations (100 mg/kg) is inhibited by the concomitant injection of aspirin 15 CH.

Such demonstrative, consistent results raise numerous questions; resolution will require new experiments. It has thus been shown that the effect of an injection of 100 mg/kg of aspirin is fully inhibited by the simultaneous injection of 15 CH of aspirin.
It has also been shown that the anti-aggregation and antithrombotic action of an injection of 100 mg of aspirin wears off gradually over 8 days, then reverses such that, 15 days after a single injection of 100 mg of aspirin, pro-aggregation (in vitro) and prothrombotic (in vivo) activity appear in rats.

More than 100 clinical trials have already been conducted.

The three principal meta-analyses (analyses of clinical trials conducted previously) lead to conclusions that are all the more favorable to homeopathy in that they are more recent:

In a summary published in 1991, three epidemiologists evaluated the methodological quality of 107 controlled clinical trials on the activity of homeopathic treatments, representing 96 different publications. The conclusion of these authors was that:
"The overall results show a positive tendency regardless of the quality of the trials or the type of homeopathic prescription used. Among the 105 trials whose results can be interpreted, 81 presented positive results while in 24 others, homeopathy did not have a positive effect. The results of this meta-analysis may be complicated by a publication bias, particularly in an area as controversial as homeopathy. For the moment, the demonstration from these clinical trials is positive not adequate to draw definitive conclusions..."

In December 1996 a report appeared, at the request of the European Parliament, by Boissel J.P., Cucherat M., Haugh M. and Gauthier E., entitled "Examen des données des essais de médecine homéopathique: rapport sur l'efficacité des interventions versus placebo ou absence de traitement" [Examination of Data from Homeopathic Medical Trials: Report on the Efficacy of the Interventions versus Placebo or Absence of Treatment].

After analysis, the authors' conclusion was that: "for the 17 comparisons selected, for each method used, the results had a p value of substantially less than 0.001. This means that in at least one trial, the null hypothesis (absence of effect of homeopathy) had to be rejected; in other words, in at least one trial, the patients treated by homeopathy received more beneficial effects than those treated with a placebo, assuming that none of the trials analyzed involved cheating".

More recently, in 1997, K. Linde and W. Jonas, of the National Institutes of Health (NIH-USA), co-signed a meta-analysis (The Lancet 9/20/97) in which they revealed the existence of 186 clinical trials concerning homeopathic therapies. Among them, they analyzed the 89 trials devoted to the study of what they called "classic homeopathy", i.e., those trials in which one or more medicines was prescribed, taking into account as closely as possible the criteria proper to the therapy. The authors concluded that "the results of this meta-analysis are incompatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are due exclusively to a placebo effect".The authors demonstrate that these results remain valid under all hypotheses, even if any publication bias were to exist.


http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/04-politique/clinique.htm

http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/04-politique/fondamentale.htm

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And oh yes, enter "homeopathy" in Medline to find such studies.
The Skepdic (skeptics dicitionary) is fine as far as it goes but if one is really interested in this subject, then they need to reseach it before they take the Skepdict approach.
 
SteveGrenard said:
I find the notion of homeopathy far fetched as well and pesonally have a difficult time udnerstanding its claims or how it could possibly work. However, in the interests of answering, Claus' question, well his assertion, about nothing ocurring in he 200 years since Samuel Hahnemann developed his theories concerning his subject, it is important to understand that there are event recent research findings which need to be dealt with and confirmed in the lab (as opposed to a Randi engineered television stunt to discredit) if in fact they are replicable at all.

...SNIP...

Any chance you can support your "Randi stunt" outburst?

Are you referring to the BBC Horizon show? Are you saying Randi "engineered" that? If so what do you mean be "engineered" and what do you mean by "stunt"?

And if it isn't the Horizon TV show which TV programme?
 
Steve,

Your post is in violation with forum rules. You have simply copied a whole page from this (homeopathic!) site:

http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/04-politique/fondamentale.htm

Please remove your post and place a link instead. You have been reported to the moderators. You also post as if you yourself have written it. That is called fraud, Steve.

I ask you to find one replicable experiment, you steal the text of someone else (a homeopathic site, no less) and don't think it will be discovered??

You're a fraud, Steve. Pure and simple.
 
It is indeed the Horizon show to which I refer and the absurdiity to which skeptics who are Randi followers cling to this single trial which failed to produce results compared to the 1000s of trials that ocurred outside of this arena. There were no controls on this trial on television, it was a single experiment as opposed to thousands and was scientifically meaningless. It is as scientifically meaningless as trying, for example, to determine whether television mediums are genuine or not by watching their performances on the tube. Science is not conducted on TV.
Sorry.

Darat, what I find amazing about so-called organized skeptics who follow the party line of CSICOP, JREF or the other groups is their failure to question to the stakes. The stakes are very very high. Those who screamed the loudest and the longest that aspirin had no effect save for a placebo effect in heart attack had their flames fanned by scientists and medical people who were financed and supported by companies that made treatments such as TPA which, I grant are very effective but which costs millions, maybe nearly hundreds of millions to develop and costs patients or their insurers three thousand+ dollars a pop. The mere idea that a two cent over the counter product such as aspirin could help prevent coronary thrombosis and heart attack and, in fact, work nearly as well or as well as products costing thousands was just too much for them to swallow. It's called lobbying.

So a case in point: the lengths, for example to which CSICOP and its organizers went to refute the use of aspirin in coronary thrombosis/chest pain victims or as a prophylactic for coronary artery thrombosis never ceases to amaze me and many others.
Fortunately and happily CSICOP was wrong and fortunately and happily nobody listened to their rants and aspirin, at two cents a pop, is now the first line of defense against heart attack and is given to every chest pain case that arrives in virtually any emergency room/casualty department. And we didn't need meta-analysis of tens of thousands of cases to back this up. Aspirin's abilities can be neatly confirmed in a test tube with solid physical evidence. I wonder if Randi would admit it if he were taking a kiddie aspirin a day for his own heart condition? Probably not.

But the bigger picture Darat is how many people, dissuaded from taking aspirin for their heart problems, died as a result of CSICOP and JREF's efforts to to discredit the treatment for this purpose?
I would hazard that many thousands probably died due to this particular skeptic ticket. And its amazing how skeptics try to invoke the "rules" whenever a post is made which sucessfully refutes their position rather than provide a real response. Legal technicalities have no place in medicine and by the way Clausy old boy, the information posted is in the public domain so find a better way to refute it. How pathetic and reflective of the empty arguments made here with respect to real issues such as this.
 
SteveGrenard said:
It is indeed the Horizon show to which I refer

...snip...


Now we've established the programme in question can you now provide the information I requested? Which is how this programme was a"...snip... Randi engineered television stunt to discredit ...snip...".

Please show how Randi "engineered" the television stunt to "discredit".


(And thank you for the rest of your post but it doesn't have any bearing on my questions or comments. Please fell free to post it into a new thread and I'll respond to it there.)
 
The absence of conrols and the singlular nature of the trial and the use of off site facilities all fit into Randi's typical format for engineering a psychic million dollar PR stunt. It was not science, it was rubbish.

We will never know what really happened with those specimens and we will never know on whose payroll the investigators were.
Remember this is big business with big stakes and publicity hounds like Randi are an important part of the chain.
 

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