Hay Guys! New woowoo + CNN NWO video

9/11 was a complex event, to say the least, and some of the information is critical to the US national security. I don't expect the FBI and CIA to give out information to the public right-away. I'm sure they haven't made public all of the available data, and I think that's OK.

In addition, the victims have a right to some degree of privacy. At least the photos of bodies that were evidence in the Moussaoui trial were not identifiable.

What makes these creey CTers think THEY have the right to see the photograhs of the dead?
 
I was referring to the mythical oil pipeline planned to cross Afghanistan (connecting Turkmenistan to Pakistan - and possibly on to India). There has been a pipeline in the, um, pipeline for years, but it's never been for oil, it's for natural gas. A couple of posts about the Afghan pipeline:

So, the oil pipeline is a myth, the natural gas pipeline is a reality.

Iraq is a whole different matter, apart from anything else, I think they seriously believed that Saddam would at some point develop chemical and/or nuclear weapons (their dishonesty on WMDs, I think was in misrepresenting the intelligence - passing off speculation as fact). On top of the potential money to be made, it's obviously in the US's political and economic interests to secure its oil supply.
Secure the oil supply, or at least make sure that in the future the Iraqi oil is sold in dollars, not Euros. Can somebody tell me when Iraq switched to the Euro for oil sales? And tell me if I'm wrong about the switch.

But the question remains, if Al Quaeda is a fiction - why use 9/11 as a false flag against Afganistan? What is there to gain from invading it? Why not implicate Iraq directly? Why not throw in Syria and Iran while you're at it?
Heroin trade. And the natural gas pipeling you mentioned. Iraq next, then Iran and Syria! (Syria just switched to the Euro too, if I'm not mistaken).
 
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Yeah I'm aware of all that. The question is how much damage did the east penthouse colapse do to the building below, and especially to the core columns which hold it up. That will certainly be inluded in the report, and I look foward to it. For now, I'm reading over the documents you linked me to...

Yurebiz, remember, WTC 7 was built over a ConEd substation. Consequently, it has some unorthodox long spans which made it vulnerable.
 
Yeah I'm aware of all that. The question is how much damage did the east penthouse colapse do to the building below, and especially to the core columns which hold it up. That will certainly be inluded in the report, and I look foward to it. For now, I'm reading over the documents you linked me to...
Hi, Yurebiz. You misunderstand NIST's working hypothesis on the WTC 7 collapse. If you haven't read their interim report on that building, you should: http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf

The east mechanical penthouse collapsed after massive internal collapses propagated to the roof from the lower levels. You're thinking that the penthouse collapsed for some reason and then damaged the structure below. NIST says the opposite: the damaged structure on the lower levels caused the penthouse to collapse. NIST's hypothesis makes sense when you look at diagrams of the building's structure.
 
To the best of my knowledge the pipeline project was abandoned before the October 7th 2001 invasion of Afghanistan and was never actually built.
 
To the best of my knowledge the pipeline project was abandoned before the October 7th 2001 invasion of Afghanistan and was never actually built.

Oh, ok. But it's still mighty fine real estate for a pipeline, when they get around to it (and secure the country, if they ever do).
 
Oh, ok. But it's still mighty fine real estate for a pipeline, when they get around to it (and secure the country, if they ever do).
So much for "reality," eh?

And do you see the wee contradiction in your statement? I'll help you out. Replace "it's" with "Baghdad is" and "pipeline" with "Wal-Mart," and I think you'll get the picture.
 
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So much for "reality," eh?

And do you see the wee contradiction in your statement? I'll help you out. Replace "it's" with "Baghdad is" and "pipeline" with "Wal-Mart," and I think you'll get the picture.

BINGO! Keep going.

Gravy, are you the one who debated Dylan (sort of) and Jason? I saw that a week or two ago, and would like to see it again. Can you post the links? (If not you, sorry).

If it was you, good job.
 
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Oh, ok. But it's still mighty fine real estate for a pipeline, when they get around to it (and secure the country, if they ever do).

Given that you obviously haven't followed the links in my earlier post on the subject of the pipeline, here are the posts that I linked to:

Being as I started this thread, perhaps I should do some of the work. So here's some information about the planned Afghan pipeline.

The first thing to note is that it is indeed a natural gas pipeline. Although it is possible to compress gas and ship it, it seems unlikely that anybody would do this to transport natural gas to the USA from Turkmenistan via a pipeline across Afghanistan and Pakistan, at least in the short term:

According to the Energy Information Administration(EIA), net imports of natural gas accounted for 15 percent of natural gas use in the United States in 2002. About 95 percent of U.S. natural gas imports are from Canada. According to the EIA, net imports from Canada equaled 3.49 Tcf, and this level is expected to decrease at an annual rate of 1.4 percent to a level of 2.56 Tcf per year in 2025.
Liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports represent an increasingly important part of the natural gas supply picture in the United States. LNG takes up much less space than gaseous natural gas, allowing it to be shipped much more efficiently. For more information on LNG, click here.

LNG that is imported to the United States comes via ocean tanker. The U.S. gets a majority of its LNG from Trinidad and Tobago, Qatar, and Algeria, and also receives shipments from Nigeria, Oman, Australia, Indonesia, and the United Arab Emirates.

According to the EIA, the U.S. imported 0.17 Tcf of natural gas in the form of LNG in 2002. LNG imports are expected to increase at an average annual rate of 15.8 percent, to levels of 4.80 Tcf of natural gas by 2025.
http://www.naturalgas.org/business/analysis.asp#dryng

So we're looking at a gradual shift away from importing gas from Canada to shipping it in from the rest of the world by 2025 - and imports currently account for 15% of supply. Not a huge incentive for the US to secure a pipeline for its own supply.

Nevertheless there were negotiations about a gas pipeline throughout the 90s - the idea being to supply the domestic gas market of Pakistan and perhaps India (although relationships between Pakistan and India could interfere with this). There were no plans to export the gas to the US or anywhere else. Thus the only benefit to the US would be indirect, if a US company made some money from the deal. Anyway, there's a timeline here:

http://www.worldpress.org/specials/pp/pipeline_timeline.htm

From this timeline, it looks as if the companies vying for the contract, Unocal and Bridas, were quite keen on the Taliban taking control if it meant a stable country and good security for the pipeline:

October 1996
Unocal expresses suport for Taliban takover, saying it makes pipeline project easier. Unocal later says it was misquoted.
June 1997
Unocal says peace is necessary for construction of pipeline, otherwise the project could take years. Bridas officials meet Taliban and say that they are "interested in beginning work in any kind of security situation."
Both quotes from the timeline.

There's another, more conspiracy-oriented, timeline here: http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm

Negotiations, continue until Osama Bin Laden throws a spanner in the works by bombing US Embassies in 1998. Clinton retaliates by firing cruise missiles into Afghanistan and this blows the whole pipeline deal:

During the mid-1990s, Unocal had pursued a possible natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan's Dauletabad-Donmez gas basin via Afghanistan to Pakistan, but pulled out after the U.S. missile strikes against Afghanistan in August 1998.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html#transit

Interesting, then, if Al Qaeda are no threat, that Clinton wrecked this supposedly important gas pipeline deal by attacking Afghanistan.

Today, the prospects for the pipeline ever being constructed are not good:

The Afghan government under President Karzai has tried to revive the Trans-Afghan Pipeline (TAP) plan, with periodic talks held between the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Turkmenistan on the issue, but little progress appears to have been made as of early June 2004 (despite the signature on December 9, 2003, of a protocol on the pipeline by the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkmenistan). President Karzai has stated his belief that the project could generate $100-$300 million per year in transit fees for Afghanistan, while creating thousands of jobs in the country.

Given the obstacles to development of a natural gas pipeline across Afghanistan, it seems unlikely that such an idea will make any progress in the near future, and no major Western companies have expressed interest in reviving the project. The security situation in Afghanistan remains an obvious problem, while tensions between India and Pakistan make it unlikely that such a pipeline could be extended into India and its large (and growing) gas market. Financial problems in the utility sector in India, which would be the major consumer of the natural gas, also could pose a problem for construction of the TAP line. Finally, the pipeline's $2.5-$3.5 billion estimated cost poses a significant obstacle to its construction.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html#transit

In the end, Afghanistan’s pipeline dreams may hinge on simple economics. But even if the political situations in the region could be worked out, many analysts say the pipeline’s rate of return would not be very high. "A large multinational company would get maybe a 15 to 20 percent return. This is not much compared to the geo-political risk involved," said Hurst Groves, Director of Columbia University’s Center for Energy Studies.
Oil analysts uniformly deem a trans-Afghanistan pipeline largely out of reach for now.

"Until either Pakistan requires imported gas, or Pakistan and India trust each other sufficiently to allow India to source gas imports via its neighbor," says Lee, Afghanistan will need to find another means of restoring its tattered economy
http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/business/articles/eav060602.shtml

BBC News report of the deal to build the pipeline and the problems it will face: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2608713.stm

So, the question remains: if this was a false flag operation, why pin the blame on Afghanistan?

Lastly, here is somebody debunking Michael Moore's version of events in Farenheit 9/11:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1178920/posts

and, for what it's worth, the wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

Nice little article on Afghanistan:

Afghanistan itself has very small reserves of natural gas and virtually no oil. The country's only importance, at least in theory, is that it could serve as a transit point for energy from neighboring countries.

...

Yet oddly enough, this isn't the first time that conspiracy theorists have sought to portray Afghanistan as the energy linchpin of Western civilization. Back in 1980, following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan when the Cold War was raging, the Carter administration and the press argued that the occupation had dramatically altered the world balance of power.

...

This was pure rubbish. Seven years earlier, when detente was near its zenith, The Wall Street Journal ran a rare story on Afghanistan headlined, "Do the Russians Covet Afghanistan? If So, It's Hard to Figure Why." Reporter Peter Kann, later the Journal's chairman and publisher, wrote that "great power strategists tend to think of Afghanistan as a kind of fulcrum upon which the world balance of power tips. But from close up, Afghanistan tends to look less like a fulcrum or a domino or a stepping-stone than like a vast expanse of desert waste with a few fly-ridden bazaars, a fair number of feuding tribes and a lot of miserably poor people."

...
The article basically explains that the gas pipeline deal (not oil!) was a lukewarm proposal at best. It was a result of some very specific factors to do with supply. Those factors no longer exist. For example, Russia has opened up its grid to the Caspian Sea states and is now allowing them to export their oil and gas through Russia (before they did not).

Other potential customers of the gas line (India, for example) have accquired other routes that do not involve the gas line running through Pakistan - their long-standing rival.

Lastly, oil or pipelines need stability. Afghanistan is not stable.

-Gumboot

The process of importing natural gas into the US requires converting nat gas to liquified natural gas. There are four terminals in the US that handle LNG, though there are more on the drawing board. LNG accounts for something like 1 trillion of the 62 trillion cubic feet a day that is consumed in the US. So not a lot.

Most imported LNG comes from places like Trinidad and Algeria, which are easy-access countries. The break-even cost of importing LNG is $2.50-$3.00 / mm btus. During the 1990s, nat gas bounced from $1.50-$2.50, so it wasn't feesible to import LNG from far-away places like Afghanistan.

One thing to remember is that unlike oil, the infrastructure for nat gas isn't conducive to export in many places of the world. Gas is a by-product of drilling, and in places where they do not have the infrastructure to export it, it is burned at the tip. There is lots and lots of gas in the world, but the problem is that it is stranded. It would be a helluva lot easier to build the infrastructure in Saudi Arabia and Russia and export it.

This issue, for the foilers however, is one of profits for Unocal. Never mind that it would be a drop in the bucket for Unocal. Even profits that would barely move the needle are worth killing 10s of 000s of people.

Calling it "mighty fine real estate" just shows that you haven't bothered to find anything out about the pipeline.
 
The most recent news on the pipeline, is that India have signed up, so it's looking more feasible. There are two articles about this:

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntc64919.htm
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntc65139.htm
http://www.dancewithshadows.com/business/tapi-gas-pipeline-project.asp
http://www.thehindu.com/biz/2006/05/08/stories/2006050800341600.htm

However, I don't see evidence of any US involvement in the project so far:

In 2005, Asian Development Bank submitted to the ministers of oil and gas industry and mineral resources of Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India the final version of feasibility study of the Trans-Afghan gas pipeline designed by British company Penspen
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntc64919.htm

All we have, in fact is a feasibility study and an agreement between four countries to try and accelerate the process of starting the project. There are no solid project plans as yet and nobody has been asked to tender to do the work.

I still don't see how, in 2001, the project was important enough to go to war over.
 
Heroin trade.

You say that as if it obviously makes sense. Can you please explain how the US Government benefits from the heroin trade? Please provide evidence for your assertions and pay particular attention to explaining how, in a heroin market with falling prices and flat demand, it makes sense for the dealers to increase supply.

Here are some of the thoughts on heroin from this thread, so far:

And what is the cost of the 'war on drugs' in terms of law enforcement, prisons, rehab, insurance, lost work days, breakdown of families and disintegration of the inner cities? Yep, that laundered money certainly makes an increase in the drug trade an attractive proposition. NOT!
According to this UN Drug Report, the export value of Opium from Afghanistan in 2005 $2.7bn with $560m going to the farmers, that's 4100 metric tonnes of opium.
source http://www.unodc.org/pdf/WDR_2006/wdr2006_chap3_opium.pdf page 4

Estimating the value of the trade is tough so I'm going to guess. Going by a US retail price of $71 a gramme, the value of this as heroin is around $290bn. Except the rest of the world doesn't pay anything like as much for it's heroin (the European average is less than half that) so I'm going to make a massive guess and halve the retail figure to $145bn. Assuming the CIA is managing to run some huge smuggling operation (evidence for this - none) I'm going to give them a massive 10% of my guess of the street value of all the heroin that comes from Afganistan and say $15bn. Would this be worth it? How much has the US spent on being in Afghanistan and Iraq, so far? Also, the price of Heroin has been coming down and demand remains flat, so why would it be in the CIA's interests to increase supply? Surely this would cut into their profits?

ETA: Also, criminals don't pay taxes, governments like tax income.

source for world retail and wholesale prices: http://www.unodc.org/pdf/WDR_2006/wdr2006_chap5_opium.pdf

UN world drug report 2006: http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/world_drug_report.html
And even if you could argue that the world heroin trade was booming and more profitable because of Afghanistan flooding the market, you still have to show evidence that the CIA is a major player in it. As far as I can tell, there is no evidence of this.

As far as I know, the CIA has previously got involved in drug dealing to forge anti-communists alliances (Laos) or to raise money for covert operations that congress would never have funded (Central America). I can't see any evidence that the CIA would need to raise funds in such a dangerous way these days - or evidence that they are doing so.

Happy to be corrected on any of the above, as I haven't researched it in detail.

ETA, some wikipedia sources.

Laos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_Southeast_Asia - this book was published in 1972.

Central America:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contra's_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_Committee_report - this report was published in 1989.

So two CIA operations involving drugs, both of which would have been only a tiny part of the world trade in dugs, the last of which was in the eighties. The one involving heroin was in the late sixties and early seventies.

Edited, again, to add:
There's an only edition of the 1972 version of The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia, here:
http://www.drugtext.org/library/books/McCoy/default.htm

Apparently there was an expanded edition published in 2003, I'd be interested to know what it has to say about Afghanistan and the invasion.
 
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Hi everyone, first time poster here. This seems like a good place to jump in because I don't want to start a new thread and my story is somewhat similar to Yourbiz's. Not everybody who has doubts about the "official story" is a CT lunatic. I for one believe most aspects of the official story but some things about it leave me at loose ends and not overwhelmingly convinced.

I would like to know if any of the regulars here (whose posts I've been reading for a few weeks now) are not 100% on any aspects of the official story pertaining to 9/11.
 
Hi everyone, first time poster here. This seems like a good place to jump in because I don't want to start a new thread and my story is somewhat similar to Yourbiz's. Not everybody who has doubts about the "official story" is a CT lunatic. I for one believe most aspects of the official story but some things about it leave me at loose ends and not overwhelmingly convinced.

I would like to know if any of the regulars here (whose posts I've been reading for a few weeks now) are not 100% on any aspects of the official story pertaining to 9/11.
Welcome to the forums, bernit.

"not 100% on any aspects of the official story" is a question that's both vague and loaded. We tend to value direct expression here. Since you DO have questions about the official story, and you haven't seen satisfactory answers here or elsewhere, why not start a thread about one? (I assume that you're interested in finding answers.)

Let 'er rip.
 
I would like to know if any of the regulars here (whose posts I've been reading for a few weeks now) are not 100% on any aspects of the official story pertaining to 9/11.

Wellll.... I always found it suspicious that cheney was wearing socks that day.

But it might have been just a coincidence.
 
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You say that as if it obviously makes sense. Can you please explain how the US Government benefits from the heroin trade? Please provide evidence for your assertions and pay particular attention to explaining how, in a heroin market with falling prices and flat demand, it makes sense for the dealers to increase supply.

ETA, some wikipedia sources.

Laos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_Southeast_Asia - this book was published in 1972.

Central America:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contra's_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_Committee_report - this report was published in 1989.

So two CIA operations involving drugs, both of which would have been only a tiny part of the world trade in dugs, the last of which was in the eighties. The one involving heroin was in the late sixties and early seventies.

Edited, again, to add:
There's an only edition of the 1972 version of The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia, here:
http://www.drugtext.org/library/books/McCoy/default.htm

Apparently there was an expanded edition published in 2003, I'd be interested to know what it has to say about Afghanistan and the invasion.

I can no longer edit that post, but here are some more links in a new post:

Here is the amazon listing for The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade by Alfred W. McCoy:

http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Heroin-Complicity-Global-Trade/dp/1556524838

I can't find much about it on the web, but I did find some interview with and articles by McCoy:

http://www.lycaeum.org/drugwar/DARKALLIANCE/ciaheron.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/CIAdrug_fallout.html
http://www.afn.org/~iguana/archives/1997_05/19970508.html
http://www.bearcave.com/bookrev/nugan_hand.html

All of these have been pretty old and none, it seems to me, point to the heroin trade as a reason to invade Afghanistan.

More recently McCoy has been concerned with CIA torture methods:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/17/1522228
http://counterpunch.org/mccoy05292004.html

I also turned up some more general articles:
http://www.pa-chouvy.org/Chouvy-ChinaEurasiaForumQuarterly-2006-AfghanistanOpiumPerspective.html
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Opium_economy_in_Afghanistan
 
I would like to know if any of the regulars here (whose posts I've been reading for a few weeks now) are not 100% on any aspects of the official story pertaining to 9/11.


Hi, and welcome to the forum.

In considering whether you believe the "official story", it is important to consider how much you understand the NIST findings. For example, most of the CTers we come across on this board are unfamiliar with the full report - not surprising, given its length - and hence are rather shocked to discover that so called "missing" evidence is actually discussed at length, and in a manner that puts Jones & co. to shame.
 

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