• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Changes To The Challenge

Didn't Randi or Jeff already say that a member of the general public need only pass one of the many smaller skeptical challenges out there in order to qualify for the million dollar challenge?

I e-mailed Randi about this:

Gr8wight said:
Mr. Randi,

I seem to remember either you or Jeff Wagg mentioning somewhere that the general public would be able to qualify themselves for the (new and improved) Million Dollar Challenge by winning one of the many smaller challenges issued by skeptical organisations around the world. Is this, in fact, the case? If that is the case, will the JREF be keeping an up to date list of those smaller challenges for reference somewhere on the website?

Personally, I like the changes. To my mind, they better promote the stated goals of the foundation, those of education about critical thinking, and a more visible public profile for skepticism. Go you!

And he replied:

Randi said:
Yes, and I’ll put this on next week’s page…

James Randi.

There are many skeptical organisations that do offer smaller prizes. For a small, regional group, one thousand dollars should be enough to generate interest, and should also be an amount that is relatively easy to raise.
 
I wonder if the JREF has a $1M dollar bet with a bookmaker that the JREF prize will be won and proof of the supernatural will be obtained. It would be a great cover.

Not that anybodies gonna win the prize.

Those claiming "paranormal powers" have, and always have had, the chance to prove their bona fides in the public arena. The fact that none have done so should tell the general public (GP) a lot.

The "New Challenge" should attract a lot more interest among those of the GP who've never heard of the JREF or Mr. Randi, let alone the Challenge, and this is all to the good.

I'm not sure who said it, but it is time for skeptics to step out of the closet, especially in those parts of the world where skepticism is seen as something akin to a contagious and fatal disease.

M.
 
I was initially opposed to the main change as to who can apply for the Million Dollars, but after reading this recent article in Wired, I no longer am.
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,72482-1.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1
(Thanks to ObscureReferenceMan who posted this here)

The author does an excellent job of explaining why this change is a good idea.

Originally I liked the idea that anyone could go for the challenge. But given the types that actually make the attempt -- I have to agree that it's not a good use of the JREF's time and resources. ETA: And it probably wouldn't be a good use of the JREF's time and resources even if they required everyone to apply with notarized affidavits and starting using form letters as much as possible.

For anyone unknown who truly has "paranormal" abilities, it just means a temporary delay until they can publicize their ability in the media. If they truly have the ability, that should be a piece of cake. If they don't have the ability, but are successful in becoming a media darling anyway -- they'll fall within the range of the JREF's original mission. The JREF's mission is stated here, but these goals are best accomplished by, as the author of the article in Wired put it, exposing "the high-profile psychics who make a living off a credulous public".

In the meantime, JREF will be able to stop dealing with the narcissistic trolls who live to play with people's heads and the unfortunates who are truly mentally ill.

The JREF will also be able to do a better job of eliminating people who are experiencing phenomena on the fringe of what is scientifically understood and so are also outside the scope of the mission. For example see this thread.

This man's uncle has embedded shrapnel in his foot and experiences pain when exposed to infrared light. The posts starting on page 3 of the thread (especially see Robinson's post #124 on page 4) show that while this is a rare phenomena and would no doubt be of interest to some research scientists, its explainable within our understanding of science.

But to cull this man quickly and inexpensively from the application process requires expertise that the JREF staff can't be expected to have. And considering what the JREF mission is, IMHO it would not be a good use of the foundation's resources to hire consultants who would have the knowledge to determine which of the unusual claims fall within what is known about science and which ones don't.

As for the other changes --
"We're going to pick people every year and hammer on them," says Wagg. "We're going to send certified mail, we're going to do advertising. We're going to pick a few people and say, we are actively challenging you. We may advertise in The New York Times. This will make the challenge a better tool, to be what it is supposed to be."

The public shaming isn't really a change, its been done already (e.g., the Sylvia Browne clock on JREF's home page). Will stepping up the intensity will have any effect on the so-called psychics? Doubtful, but perhaps an approach could be found to shame the media into playing less of an enabling role like the ones Larry King and Montel Williams play -- maybe. Given how shameless the media has proven themselves to be, I don't know if public shaming would work.

Randi says he'll start actively investigating professional mind-readers and mediums for proof of criminal fraud, or opportunities for civil lawsuits. Like Elliot Ness stalking Al Capone, he's not above busting a psychic for tangential infractions like tax code violations or an SEC matter.

I don't think the JREF could sue most of the psychics, only people who have been harmed directly would have the legal standing to do so. Perhaps the JREF is thinking of giving customers of the Sylvia Brownes of the world funds and legal advice to enable them to sue? I honestly don't know if even that would be possible, given that most psychics put up a notice that what they do is for entertainment purpose only. It will be interesting to see what the JREF has planned.
 
Last edited:
I've sent an appreciative email to Kevin Poulsen. I think such reporting ought to be encouraged.

M.
 
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what Randi wrote, but it is my understanding that any lawsuit brought against a would-be psychic (which I think is a very good idea and long overdue) would be a totally separate endeavour from the million dollar challenge.

Instead of wasting time communicating with people who claim to have special abilities JREF will be doing this instead.

So you are both right and wrong at the same time. It is all an attempt to give frauds a bad name.
 
Not for me, guys; I think Randi's just sold a pup.

These people thrive on publicity. Any publicity Randi achieves is just more publicity for the psychics, whose easy response is, "Poor, deluded man. I actually pity him and his inability to see beyond the physical. No, I won't take his challenge, as I have no need of approval by him, and no I won't sue him. I only use positive energy and it would be anathema to me to destroy the poor old chap. He's been unwell, you know..."

"Let's move now to Cynthia, who lost her son last August..."

I've had personal experience of this factor. I challenged NZ's answer to Sylvia - Don Murray - to take the challenge live, on air (radio). He responded with a series of cute, profane e mails. I reported this faithfully to a radio audience, along with the emphasis that the man is a crook and a fraud who would not take the challenge because he knows he's a fake.

Now, Don and I have an odd relationship - we both know he's a crook and he knows I can't stop him, so he delights in telling me how well he's doing. He does by far the best business when I've publicly denounced him. He wrote and thanked me for bringing him in extra business! And I know he's not joking. The radio station had the largest call response they've ever had to him and not ONE person rang to follow up on my comments, they all wanted their bleeding fortune told.

I stand [hopefully] to be corrected in time, but it doesn't seem a smart move from here. Plus, asking to become involved in a judicial system which has both found OJ Simpson not guilty of killing his ex and her bloke, and also convicted him of murdering them and ordered him to pay damages, seems like an exercise in futility.

People believe because they want to believe, not because there's any truth in it. I would have thought James would have realised that.
 
Not for me, guys; I think Randi's just sold a pup.

These people thrive on publicity. Any publicity Randi achieves is just more publicity for the psychics, whose easy response is, "Poor, deluded man. I actually pity him and his inability to see beyond the physical. No, I won't take his challenge, as I have no need of approval by him, and no I won't sue him. I only use positive energy and it would be anathema to me to destroy the poor old chap. He's been unwell, you know..."

"Let's move now to Cynthia, who lost her son last August..."

Your cynicism aside, you point out to a truism about human nature, one described by Sagan and Shermer in great detail: our fundamental need to believe in wierd (and irrational) things! When you cite the way "publicity" works, you are describing to a tee just how the media favors reporting pseudoscience over science - part of the nature of our reptilian-brain antecedents.

All is not lost, however, because the steady and now exponential march of science and scientific thinking will inexorably burst all of the pseudoscience bubbles, from Astrology to Zen, in relatively short order (as historical time frames may be measured).

So while we still have a U.S. President who appeals to the lowest common denominator as he says "the jury is still out" on evolution, the juries that seem to really count more and more - academia, the technologists and scientists, and those who most of the world's leaders really look to - even in furtherance of nefarious undertakings - have unanimously reached a verdict as to the value of science and scientific thinking. Even those who still ascribe to old world religions and their magical ways of thinking - even President Bush in practice (but for "save a stem cell" here and there) opt for science over pseudoscience. Perhaps the last vestiges of pseudoscience then are popular culture and religious thinking (no small vestiges at that!). The battle of reason against magical thinking is far from won, and far from easy, we readily concede.

So, of course we have not won the war yet. And the general public here in the U.S. and around the world still wallows in a swamp of pseudoscientific hogwash. Sure, we still must fight for every precious minute of enlightened teaching (e.g., against the creationists, those who wish to merge Church and State, etc.). But the JREF's efforts, like the old and new Million Dollar Challenge (and its related challenges), the TAMs, those marvelous work of Sagan, Dawkins, Shermer, Randi, Steve Allen, and so many others, the work of CSICOP, the Skeptics Society, and so many others, all are part of an ever-growing movement, just as secular humanism, with its underpinnings in ethical culture, has continued to flourish and bloom through years of world war, genecide, totalitarianism, and the threat of nuclear obliteration.

Yes, certainly the media needs a corrective revolution, as does mankind. But we must see each enlightened action (like the Million Dollar Challenge) as a little victory, in the same sense as - to quote the late Robert Kennedy - these activities are like "tiny ripple of hope crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring...[building] a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistence."

How fitting that TAM5's theme is "Skepticism and the Media." Your cynicism is noted here (but not really noteworthy).
 
Your cynicism aside, you point out to a truism about human nature, one described by Sagan and Shermer in great detail: our fundamental need to believe in wierd (and irrational) things! When you cite the way "publicity" works, you are describing to a tee just how the media favors reporting pseudoscience over science - part of the nature of our reptilian-brain antecedents.

All is not lost, however, because the steady and now exponential march of science and scientific thinking will inexorably burst all of the pseudoscience bubbles, from Astrology to Zen, in relatively short order (as historical time frames may be measured).

So while we still have a U.S. President who appeals to the lowest common denominator as he says "the jury is still out" on evolution, the juries that seem to really count more and more - academia, the technologists and scientists, and those who most of the world's leaders really look to - even in furtherance of nefarious undertakings - have unanimously reached a verdict as to the value of science and scientific thinking. Even those who still ascribe to old world religions and their magical ways of thinking - even President Bush in practice (but for "save a stem cell" here and there) opt for science over pseudoscience. Perhaps the last vestiges of pseudoscience then are popular culture and religious thinking (no small vestiges at that!). The battle of reason against magical thinking is far from won, and far from easy, we readily concede.

So, of course we have not won the war yet. And the general public here in the U.S. and around the world still wallows in a swamp of pseudoscientific hogwash. Sure, we still must fight for every precious minute of enlightened teaching (e.g., against the creationists, those who wish to merge Church and State, etc.). But the JREF's efforts, like the old and new Million Dollar Challenge (and its related challenges), the TAMs, those marvelous work of Sagan, Dawkins, Shermer, Randi, Steve Allen, and so many others, the work of CSICOP, the Skeptics Society, and so many others, all are part of an ever-growing movement, just as secular humanism, with its underpinnings in ethical culture, has continued to flourish and bloom through years of world war, genecide, totalitarianism, and the threat of nuclear obliteration.

Yes, certainly the media needs a corrective revolution, as does mankind. But we must see each enlightened action (like the Million Dollar Challenge) as a little victory, in the same sense as - to quote the late Robert Kennedy - these activities are like "tiny ripple of hope crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring...[building] a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistence."

How fitting that TAM5's theme is "Skepticism and the Media." Your cynicism is noted here (but not really noteworthy).


Nominated.
 
As much as I hate to agree with The Atheist :) I'm not sure I share your optimism... The last couple of hundred years has seen the demise of a number of false beliefs and dangerous ideas, but also the rise of almost an equal number of equally useless ideas (spiritualism, Homeopathy et al.)

I hope. And maybe eventually. But the trends don't look promising...

I'm not holding my breath...
 
The optimistic outlook is the right one. Two hundred years ago there was very little good medicine. They could cure constipation and amputate a limb, without painkillers. Now most people you pay to go to for medical advice will give you good advice.

Is spiritualism a part of religion? And religion is not as powerful as it used to be.
 
Your cynicism aside, you point out to a truism about human nature, one described by Sagan and Shermer in great detail: our fundamental need to believe in wierd (and irrational) things!
Ah, but this is an irrational place, with rationality an exception, not the rule.

When you cite the way "publicity" works, you are describing to a tee just how the media favors reporting pseudoscience over science - part of the nature of our reptilian-brain antecedents.
I hardly consider it socially regressive, except in the case of cults. There are people who find science comforting, and those that find magical thinking comforting. Others try to combine the two. All three, in actuality, provide anything of the sort. Magical thinking is a personal idealism, but the romantic idealism of living in a comprehensible universe is also. Both are rational, human needs. You'll always have people who are trying to do one of these three. The question is, can it be done constructively and in a complementary way. Some, like Ralph Mcquarrie and Issac Asimov accomplished that far better than religion ever did, and with fiction; and I'll personally always consider Sagan the first actual diplomant between the two.
 
If I read this right, I actually think doing this will add credibility and focus to the challenge. Rather than scrambling around dealing with random bits and pieces of half-formed challenge applications from all sorts of people who no-one has ever heard of, they'll be out targeting the people who have already made very public claims about their abilities and then making them put up or shut-up. The potential media coverage from this approach is much larger than the application method, and will attract a lot more attention. Also it is the big fraudsters who I imagine JREF really want to shut down, not the party tricksters. All in all I think this is the right direction to go in.
A good summary of the very good reasons for the changes. :)
My new signature is perhaps prophetic?
(Do you think perhaps Randi might accept it as a slogan?)
 
Last edited:
There are people who find science comforting, and those that find magical thinking comforting. Others try to combine the two.
The third must cause a fair amount of cognitive dissonance. ;)

Both are rational, human needs.
The first is rational, the second irrational, the third a really good trick to play on yourself.

You'll always have people who are trying to do one of these three. The question is, can it be done constructively and in a complementary way.
Interacting magisteria?

Some...Issac Asimov accomplished that far better than religion ever did, and with fiction; and I'll personally always consider Sagan the first actual diplomant between the two.
Fiction is magical thinking? In the same way as religion?
 
The third must cause a fair amount of cognitive dissonance. ;)
Or resonance.

The first is rational, the second irrational, the third a really good trick to play on yourself.
Bored this much someday too you will be, yes, um!
:jedi:

Fiction is magical thinking? In the same way as religion?
Far better, because it's put in it's proper place. The only hang-up about religions is they are reflections of an incomplete, human idealism. Fundamentalism by contrast, is just science and religion turned on it's head. It's hedonistic, dishonest and intellectually degenerate.
 
It's okay. I think we have differing definitions for "magic".
Randi says that what he does is not magic, but conjuring.
I think his definition must be close to mine.
 

Back
Top Bottom