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Memes: Protoscience or Pseudoscience?

Hmmm, well if you think At Home in the Universe isn't RELEVANT, I don't guess I care much what you have to say after that. One last shot, then the ignore list. Go for it.

So, you're just playing games really.
Kauffman is not might favorite theoretician. I haven't read that book and it is not high on my reading list.
To me, going into quantum mechanics seems pointless. His claims about autocatalytic sets are not sensible and a bit too close to Schuster to be original. Moreover, the idea of some self-organising principle as a supplement to Darwinism smacks of vital forces. Still, I think more of him than to think that what you wrote was in any way representative of his work.

If you believe it is, go ahead and give chapter and verse on the arguments you are making. You might with where he says DNA is more complex than RNA.
 
So, you're just playing games really.
Kauffman is not might favorite theoretician. I haven't read that book and it is not high on my reading list.
Then you've ignored a great deal of applicable physics and chemistry. I'd suggest you read it.

To me, going into quantum mechanics seems pointless.
Why? DNA isn't made of atoms? For that matter, all proteins aren't? You think you can figure out what is happening in molecular biology without understanding the physics of what's happening to the molecules? Sorry, I have to disagree with this right from the word go. If you do this, I guarantee you will not come to rigorous conclusions.

His claims about autocatalytic sets are not sensible and a bit too close to Schuster to be original.
How do you know? You haven't read it.

In fact, his most important claim is based on networking and topology; he uses an analogy of strings and buttons to show how the number of different unique molecules in a collection influences the likelihood of autocatalytic sets forming. It is an extremely persuasive argument, coming as it does from very, very basic principles of a type of mathematics that most biologists never bother to learn because they don't think it's "relevant." Problem is, it turns out it IS relevant, and anyone who has ever studied the structure of a pine cone knows it intuitively. These mathematical principles are inherent characteristics of our world, as basic as the 3+1 dimensionality of it; they are in fact basic characteristics of any sort of world that can have differentiable objects and classifiable characteristics for those objects that define probability of associable characteristics greater than zero.

Moreover, the idea of some self-organising principle as a supplement to Darwinism smacks of vital forces.
Again, you have not read the book, and you should. The only self-organizing force is the fact that sufficient diversity with non-zero probability of association makes association inevitable. I don't care very much what you think it smacks of, being as how you haven't read it. I'll repeat that it is extremely relevant to your ideas. I really think you should make time to read it.

Still, I think more of him than to think that what you wrote was in any way representative of his work.
I repeat yet again: you haven't read it. How dare you negatively characterize what I said based on your not merely incomplete, but virtually nonexistent knowledge? If it is your intent to be insulting, you have succeeded.

If you believe it is, go ahead and give chapter and verse on the arguments you are making. You might with where he says DNA is more complex than RNA.
I ain't doing a bunch of research for someone who is being insulting. If you ain't gonna read it yourself, you can at least be polite while I explain it to you. If you're not going to read it, and you're going to be insulting, then you deserve no response whatsoever. Amend this and I'll consider changing course; better yet, read it for yourself, with an open mind and a bit less hubris than you've shown here.
 
Then you've ignored a great deal of applicable physics and chemistry. I'd suggest you read it.
I have read a couple of his papers, that is why his book is low on my reading list.

Why? DNA isn't made of atoms? For that matter, all proteins aren't? You think you can figure out what is happening in molecular biology without understanding the physics of what's happening to the molecules? Sorry, I have to disagree with this right from the word go. If you do this, I guarantee you will not come to rigorous conclusions.

I know the capabilities of quantum mechanics reasonably well - my first degree was in physical chemistry, followed by a doctorate in molecular biology. I know which tools are appropriate and which are not. With some exceptions, not including this one, quantum mechanics is not the appropriate tool for analysing molecular biology, any more than it would be the right tool for describing the motion of a bus.

In fact, his most important claim is based on networking and topology; he uses an analogy of strings and buttons to show how the number of different unique molecules in a collection influences the likelihood of autocatalytic sets forming. It is an extremely persuasive argument, coming as it does from very, very basic principles of a type of mathematics that most biologists never bother to learn because they don't think it's "relevant." Problem is, it turns out it IS relevant, and anyone who has ever studied the structure of a pine cone knows it intuitively. These mathematical principles are inherent characteristics of our world, as basic as the 3+1 dimensionality of it; they are in fact basic characteristics of any sort of world that can have differentiable objects and classifiable characteristics for those objects that define probability of associable characteristics greater than zero.
Then I suggest you provide an explanation of exactly why it is relevant.

Again, you have not read the book, and you should. The only self-organizing force is the fact that sufficient diversity with non-zero probability of association makes association inevitable. I don't care very much what you think it smacks of, being as how you haven't read it. I'll repeat that it is extremely relevant to your ideas. I really think you should make time to read it.
I don't even know what that means.

I repeat yet again: you haven't read it. How dare you negatively characterize what I said based on your not merely incomplete, but virtually nonexistent knowledge? If it is your intent to be insulting, you have succeeded.
You weren't and aren't quoting from Kauffman, you made a whole bunch of claims that had nothing to do with Kauffman's work and which you cannot back up.

I ain't doing a bunch of research for someone who is being insulting. If you ain't gonna read it yourself, you can at least be polite while I explain it to you. If you're not going to read it, and you're going to be insulting, then you deserve no response whatsoever. Amend this and I'll consider changing course; better yet, read it for yourself, with an open mind and a bit less hubris than you've shown here.
Please do not do any research on my behalf.
 
Ferget it. Welcome to ignore. I have no time for people who can't be bothered to be polite, and no interest in talking with people who think they know everything.
 
With some exceptions, not including this one, quantum mechanics is not the appropriate tool for analysing molecular biology, any more than it would be the right tool for describing the motion of a bus.
So, you admit quantum mechanics is very important for describing the motion of a bus, then?

If not, then answer this: Molecules are the product of quantum mechanics, right? So, What part of molecular biology is not made up of molecules?

Then I suggest you provide an explanation of exactly why it is relevant.
I can summarize an answer to this one, by adapting something Schneibster already said: Evidence of its applications can be found in numerous places, in nature, including the evolution of the pine cone's shape, for example.

I would not be so quick to dismiss other people's ideas. Especially when they are backed up with observable evidence. "Good logic" is no doubt very important to science, but reliably repeatable observation trumps purely logical deduction.

Everyone on this forum, without exception, (and that includes myself), has limitations in their knowledge. I hope John Hewitt is starting to find out what his limits are, for once.

And Schneibster, please reconsider your Ignore of Mr. Hewitt. I think your discussions with him are very fruitful to everyone here. Even if Hewitt won't listen to them, himself.
 
So, you admit quantum mechanics is very important for describing the motion of a bus, then?

If not, then answer this: Molecules are the product of quantum mechanics, right? So, What part of molecular biology is not made up of molecules?
What I said was
1. QM cannot sensibly be used to describe the motion of a bus or, with some exceptions, the behaviour of living things.
2. Kauffman's work is speculative and has no observational basis that I am aware of. You might like to read this
http://human-brain.org/kauffman.html
3. The posting by Schneibster, that you asked me to comment on, did not refer to Kauffman or to his work. I presume that Schneibster introduced the reference to Kauffman to avoid explaining himself. In other words, he is playing games.
4. Schneibster's posting does not seem relevant to Kauffman's work. Kauffman's ideas centre on quantum entanglement giving rise to self-organizing of matter through autocatalytic sets. Schneibster's posting, which you asked me to comment upon, did not address or raise any of those topics.
 
At your request (if I get in a fight with him later, do I get to blame you? :D just kidding) wowbagger, I'll try again. I don't guarantee he'll stay off it for long, I really dislike self-righteous impolite people, but if folks are getting something out of it, I really can't refuse.
 
Having not read At Home in the Universe myself, yet, I can not rightfully comment much on anything regarding it. (I think I will put it on my reading list.) However, the review you linked to, Mr. Hewitt, made this claim:

It is worth noting that kauffman doesn't challange those branches of science (e.g. cell bilogy, thermodynamics) which contradict his ideas. He simply ignores them completely, not only their theories but also their accumulated experimental knowledge.
(Note: Typographical errors in there are as copied from original source.)

I would like to see evidence that his ideas are completely and utterly mutually exclusive to these branches. My guess is that Kauffman's ideas could work side-by-side with the others. But, I could be wrong. Would Hewitt or Scheibster care to comment?

Schneibster's posting does not seem relevant to Kauffman's work. Kauffman's ideas centre on quantum entanglement giving rise to self-organizing of matter through autocatalytic sets. Schneibster's posting, which you asked me to comment upon, did not address or raise any of those topics.
Perhaps Scheibster would care to comment on how his posting was relevant?

I would also like to know if Kaufman's ideas have any predictive power to them. This could possibly be relevant to memes: perhaps they self-organize like that, and if so, investigating this angle could yield a better understanding in how they form and could be measured. (But, then again, I could be wrong about that.)

QM cannot sensibly be used to describe the motion of a bus or, with some exceptions, the behaviour of living things.
First of all, if QM is not directly useful to molecular biology, then I'll eat my hat with extra salt. (keyword being "molecular", you see)

Second of all, in Murray Gell-Mann's book The Quark and the Jaguar, (which I happened to have read) he makes it quite clear how quantum mechanics can relate to biology, through applications of such concepts as Information Theory and Thermodynamics and how they can evolve into the behavior of Complex Adaptive Systems (such as, for example, life forms). I suggest you read that, yourself, when you get the chance.
 
I have read a couple of his papers, that is why his book is low on my reading list.
I haven't; I read the book. It sounds to me like either
a) you missed something important, because it's in the book and not the papers, or
b) you read them, but you didn't understand them.
You can fix a) by reading the book; there's not much you can do about b) unless it's because you have prejudices, in which case you can either discard them and learn something, or continue to be prejudiced and look dumb to everyone here; if it's simple lack of capacity, I can try to help, but you should be polite if you want that. I doubt it's lack of capacity; but I would be remiss in my reasoning if I ignored the possibility.

I know the capabilities of quantum mechanics reasonably well - my first degree was in physical chemistry, followed by a doctorate in molecular biology. I know which tools are appropriate and which are not. With some exceptions, not including this one, quantum mechanics is not the appropriate tool for analysing molecular biology, any more than it would be the right tool for describing the motion of a bus.
Again, what you pedantically know, and what you actually understand the implications of in terms of real world events, appear to be very different. And again, I don't and can't know if this is prejudice or lack of capacity, but it has to be one or the other.

Then I suggest you provide an explanation of exactly why it is relevant.
I did. You said:
I don't even know what that means.
OK, well I'll assume then that trying to explain it another way will help you; my real opinion is that it's a matter of prejudice, but at least another different explanation might tell someone else something THEY had not heard before, whether you are capable of discarding your prejudices enough to hear something you don't like or not.

Suppose the probability of two things being associated in a certain way is X. Now suppose that you increase the number of things. What happens to the probability that the collection of things will have a pair that are associated in that way? The answer is relatively obvious. As the number of things increases, the chance that there will be a pair that are related increases. And the number of pairs of things that are related also increases, if the number of things goes high enough.

Now, let us talk about proteins and their interactions. The most important action of a protein from the point of view of this topological model is as an enzyme. In an enzymatic interaction, a protein can be a substrate, which is acted upon by an enzyme, a product, which is created by the action of an enzyme on a substrate, or an enzyme, which acts upon a substrate to create a product. (Yes, yes, I know, the details of this interaction are more complex than this- many enzymes produce multiple products from multiple substrates, but the principle remains; just because the edges represent different interactions, doesn't mean that the mathematical behavior is, in the end, any different. I said it doesn't matter what you define edges or nodes to be, remember?) So let us note that the odds of a particular protein being an enzyme to another, either as product or substrate, are fixed; that is, given two random proteins, there is a small, but fixed, probability that one will turn out to be an enzyme in an interaction that either uses or produces the other.

Now, given a randomly chosen (i.e., randomly produced) set of proteins, what this means is that as the number of proteins increases, the number of proteins that are associated in this way, by enzyme mediated reactions, also increases. And if we increase the number of proteins enough, then eventually, INEVITABLY, we will create a closed set of proteins, all related to one another, capable given the correct (and simple!) chemical input of reproducing itself. This is an autocatalytic set, and I'll point out again that the formation of such sets, given enough different proteins, is inevitable. That's what Kauffman means when he says that life is inevitable; because that which consumes and reproduces is life.

And that's what I meant, and if you'd read the book, you'd know it.

You weren't and aren't quoting from Kauffman, you made a whole bunch of claims that had nothing to do with Kauffman's work and which you cannot back up.
How do you know? You didn't read it.
 
I would like to see evidence that his ideas are completely and utterly mutually exclusive to these branches. My guess is that Kauffman's ideas could work side-by-side with the others. But, I could be wrong. Would Hewitt or Scheibster care to comment?
Actually, this is a misunderstanding of how Kauffman's ideas work. They contradict neither cell biology, because they precede it, nor thermodynamics, because they in fact count on thermodynamics to produce the substances from which they form autocatalytic sets. Arguments against self-organization on thermodynamic grounds have the irritating tendency to claim that self organization does not occur because it violates thermodynamics by creating order; what they ignore is that energy flowing from one place to another ALWAYS creates order, and there's this great big source of energy UP THERE IN THE SKY. Some people call it "The Sun." If they're smart enough to remember it's there. Which apparently the writer of that article WAS NOT. I'd say forgetting or ignoring the existence of the Sun is pretty much grounds for stating that the conclusions reached might not be entirely, well, dependable. A few dropped premises here and there, perhaps. Maybe it's just me.

Perhaps Scheibster would care to comment on how his posting was relevant?
I think I've covered that in the previous post, for anyone who is not blinded by their prejudices.

I would also like to know if Kaufman's ideas have any predictive power to them.
As a matter of fact, they do- and the mathematics that underlies them has been tested and proven. Furthermore, Stuart Kauffman possesses a patent on the evolution of novel enzymes using the process described in my previous post, and in his book. Not only is there a company, Applied Molecular Evolution, that has produced enzymes using this technique, but they are currently involved in litigation with another company, MorphoSys AG, regarding infringement of Kauffman's patents (which apparently they own the rights to produce enzymes under), and have obtained injunctive relief against two other companies, Archemix, and SomaLogic, operating in Europe, under the European patent(s?) Kauffman has obtained. A quick google on the obvious turns will turn up information on this, including this link to a press release on AME's web site. How's that for prediction? Does making commercial products with it count? :D

Incidentally, John Hewitt's accusation that I was exaggerating or lying about companies using this process to produce products, and his assertion that I could not produce proof, seem now to be either victims of his lack of search skills, or deliberate acts of dishonesty. I'll leave others to form their own opinions. Particularly considering the wording of his statements, which seem to me rather probative. It is worth noting that the first search terms were "Kauffman enzyme engineering," and the one that brought the link above to light was "Kauffman patent." Gee, that was pretty tough to figure out. Took me almost forty-five seconds. Including search time.

This could possibly be relevant to memes: perhaps they self-organize like that, and if so, investigating this angle could yield a better understanding in how they form and could be measured. (But, then again, I could be wrong about that.)
I think that how memes behave is far more relevant to Kauffman's autocatalytic sets or even John Hewitt's oscillating chemicals than it is to DNA and genetics.

First of all, if QM is not directly useful to molecular biology, then I'll eat my hat with extra salt. (keyword being "molecular", you see)
Me too. Although I'd like a little pepper with mine. Not that it makes any difference.

I'll point out that X-ray crystallography- a physics technique developed using quantum mechanics- was used to confirm the double-helical structure of DNA. That is the barest beginning of the applications of quantum mechanics to the functioning of DNA; for example, the way in which it is replicated, or the way in which it is transcribed into tRNA, both require quantum mechanics for their complete description.

Second of all, in Murray Gell-Mann's book The Quark and the Jaguar, (which I happened to have read) he makes it quite clear how quantum mechanics can relate to biology, through applications of such concepts as Information Theory and Thermodynamics and how they can evolve into the behavior of Complex Adaptive Systems (such as, for example, life forms). I suggest you read that, yourself, when you get the chance.
It is a good book; I have not picked it up in quite a long time. I'll have to again soon. I had forgotten it or I might have made these points myself.

Overall, I'd say John's got some 'splainin to do. Excuse me, precisely how does one complete a college course in physical chemistry, and not know how quantum mechanics applies to it? Not to mention, how does one complete the courses to earn a degree in molecular biology without knowing that the proper description of how DNA is lysed, and how it is duplicated, and how it is transcribed, also require knowledge of that discipline?

Again, I will leave others to form their own opinions. Mine is, I think, relatively obvious.
 
However memetics does not even live up to the standards of genetics in Mendel's time. Before the discovery of DNA, genetics still had predictive power, you could say that an organism with this characteristic crossed with an organism with that characteristic would produce an offspring with such and such a characteristic.

So genetics was a science even before the underlying mechanism was even guessed at.

There is no such predictive power in memetics and, to my knowledge, no careful experimentation to even attempt to find this.
I don't know that they're using memetics, precisely, but I have to tell you that advertising sure is making a hell of a lot of money coming up with highly memorable jingles and phrases that seem to be on the tip of everyone's tongue for a few weeks.

Bud. Wise. Er.

comes immediately to mind. Memetics at minimum postdicts this.

One of the things that got me started on memetics was a read through Douglas Rushkoff's Coercion. It's a very interesting book. No, it's not memetics- but you'll be able to see why I feel it's a precursor if you read it. Note the clever interweaving of sights and sounds, and where possible smells and textures, to achieve the desired commercial effect. Note how ideas- memes, though I don't recall Rushkoff mentioning them as such- get greater impact from associations with various things we find compelling in one fashion or another.

Besides, memetics postdicts LOTS of things. It postdicts that there will be ideas that "catch on" that have little or no survival value. It postdicts that ideas that have associations with compelling- not necessarily good or bad, but always memorable- events or experiences, will survive longer. It postdicts that ideas that are associated with easily memorized themes- "Bud. Wise. Er." Or, more recently, "B-Lock." "Duh-umb." "Man Rule."- will survive longer. It postdicts that the more "hooks" or "tricks" a meme has, the longer it will survive. And there stands the Catholic Church and its three thousand year old book by the neolithic sheep herders. Using literally "every trick in the book." The altruism trick; the fear trick; Blackstone doesn't even get to them all, because she doesn't have enough book to do so. And friend, it's lasted, yep, 3000 years. Imagine that. What does it take to craft something that durable? How do you go about it? The fact is, we know it in our subconscious- but no one has yet properly explained it. Even Macchievelli- close as he came- never quite explained it all. It postdicts that memes that are more easily memorized will last longer- because they will be copied more faithfully.

So don't tell me memetics doesn't predict things- it's just that the things it predicts are all things we already happen to know, being pretty social creatures. And it definitely doesn't, despite six pages of everyone and their brother trying to shoot it down, predict or postdict anything that DOESN'T happen. So while I'll agree that it's not YET a science, I seriously doubt that anyone who thinks it's dead, or a dead end, or ignorable, has done enough research to have a believable opinion on the subject.
 
By the way:
I do not think there is any point talking about memetics any more. We are not about to agree with one another and memetics is not what I am actively interested in.
Da Schneib points mutely at the title of the thread, frowns, shakes his head, and walks away muttering under his breath.
 
Glad to have you back, Schneibster! You're on top of your game!

I, for one, can appreciate the detail you've put into your answers. They are certainly very useful to me, at least. I think we got to find some way to get more forum members involved with this.

My theory is that John Hewitt doesn't want to talk about memes anymore, because he's got no arguments left in declaring them "junk".

Remember, there is no shame in no knowing something. There is only shame in not acknowledging facts, once evidence has been presented to you.
 
I disagree and challenge you to prove this. RNA is a simpler chemical than DNA, and would be quite capable of being synthesized in a random chemical environment. But even this is not necessary to abiogenesis; you might want to have a look at autocatalytic sets. They are a much more likely explanation of the origin of life on Earth, IMO, than any other; and you will also find that they are a very, very hard target. Particularly since it appears that scientists working for chemical companies have used the ideas behind autocatalytic sets to successfully create (evolve! Note most carefully!) enzymes for various uses, like odor elimination, stain removal, drain clog removal, and other purposes. These enzymes work extremely well. To top it all off, the theory of autocatalytic sets accounts for RNA, too!

It is worthwhile also to point out that templates for the synthesis of proteins are not nearly as limited as many believe. In fact, out of many, many millions or even billions of candidate amino acids, life here on Earth uses only a very, very few. For example, in your body, all of the proteins generated by your DNA are made from only twenty amino acids, out of these billions. These twenty amino acids are coded for by combinations of only four nucleotides in groups of three. You will note that four codons, taken three at a time, gives sixty-four possible combinations; with "start" and "stop" codons, and redundant combinations, this allows the specification of literally trillions of possible proteins, enough to permit an immune response to just about any antigen you will encounter in your lifetime. You should know (would, if you'd do the research) that your immune system does not come pre-programmed to combat diseases; instead, it comes pre-equipped with a "toolkit" of antibody-generating cells that are- have to be!- capable of adapting to and attacking any organism that invades your body. Given the rapid mutation rate of viruses and bacteria, this is an absolute requirement for you to be a robust organism yourself; if you were limited to only the organisms that could be specified in your DNA, you would quickly die on being exposed to a novel virus or bacterium, and this would probably happen in your first year of life.

But those four nucleotides, and those twenty amino acids, are by no means the only ones possible; in fact, there are millions or billions of others, plus combinations and permutations of them, that many believe would yield a viable genetic code, and a viable "toolkit" of proteins it can construct. In fact, alternate genetic codes actually exist on Earth; mitochondria, ciliate protozoa, Mycoplasma, and some yeasts of genus Candida use differing interpretations for at least some codons, hinting that alternate codes may have been dominant in the past.

The question is not, and never has been, "How did this incredibly unlikely genetic code come to be." It is not unlikely; it is instead inevitable. Obvious. Expected. Once, that is, one knows the laws of physics and complexity that govern chemistry. The question at hand is rather, "Of all the possible choices, why did evolution on Earth settle on the particular genetic code it did?" And the answers to that increasingly appear to have to do with robust replication, and robust correction of point mutations. It becomes increasingly obvious that the particular genetic code we use has also been subject to selection pressures. That it has itself evolved. Representations of a genetic code that must necessarily have sprung fully-fledged from nothing are therefore revealed as misrepresentations of the actual state of affairs: we see that the genetic code has evolved, and that other genetic codes are possible; given a billion years or so, and all the world's oceans, with the obvious results of the Miller-Urey experiment in hand, we can see that it is inevitable that life should have developed here.

In any case, the original point was that both genetics and memetics are accurate descriptions of reality on some level. And while I will give you points for at least presenting what you see as an alternative, I also have to point out (although I did not do the detailed critique wowbagger did, I did read it) that both alternatives appear to be relatively unaffected by whether genes preceeded proteins, or succeeded them. It is likely that we will never know for sure; it is equally likely that we will create at some point organisms that have all the necessary attributes for us to call them "living" that do not use the same genetic code we do. And I ask you, will they be "alive," will they be "life," whatever that might mean?

Underlying this conversation is the following point: the meaning of the genetic code is undeniable. We can duplicate most of the functions in vitro. And given that that meaning, the clear, unambiguous mapping between genes and proteins, is unquestioned, the utility of DNA as a blueprint for the creation of proteins, and as the source of the repetition of arrangement of proteins and their actions that we call ontogeny.

Given this known paradigm, and given the complexity with which an organized collection of proteins can act, it must be obvious that there is something that can be acted upon, that can be inherited, that is the source of all our phenotypes. And this must be the place where all changes that can be inherited must come from. And no matter what went before, once this DNA mechanism became dominant in life on Earth, it must be what ultimately is changed whenever a heritable phenotypical change occurs in a population of organisms. It does not matter what other chemical or physical changes occur in an organism; if the DNA, and specifically in the germ plasm, is not changed, then that change is not heritable. And conversely, it does not matter what is changed in germ plasm, that change will be heritable, even if it makes no difference whatsoever to the phenotype of the organism. These are provable facts, and have been proven over and over again; the mere existence of genetically modified organisms is undisputable proof that when evolution occurs in modern life forms, and by modern I mean anything that uses DNA on Earth, which is every organism alive on Earth today, and just about every organism that has lived since the beginning of the Cambrian.

Given that such a mechanism exists, it has to be obvious that there can be no question as to what changes when evolution occurs. Thee can be only one answer. It must be DNA. Nothing else answers the obvious requirement for something that can be inherited, something that determines the phenotype, and something that is both difficult enough to change that it is usable for transmission of phenotypical characteristics, and easy enough to change that it can be that which changes when evolution occurs.

In this low-level sense, then, genetics does not map well to memetics. However, I have to point out that once you posit evolution of chemicals, and point out the similarities to genetic evolution, you have inadvertently made an analogy that improves the viability of memetics, because the way memes evolve is much more like the way that you posit that chemicals evolve prebiotically than the way that we know DNA evolves. Unlike genes, memes are themselves the phenotype; they are the ideas themselves, not "genes of ideas," as would be required by strict analogy with genetic molecular biology.
Would somebody please tell me where, in this posting Schneibster cites or mentions Kauffman's work? Where does he use Kauffman's work?
Am I being asked to debate this posting or Kauffman's claims.
 
Look, John, you been pwnt. It's obvious now that you have no substantial arguments to present; if you did, you'd have done it. Are we done here, or are you actually gonna respond with something that means something, instead of just pointing and laughing and hoping someone joins you?
 
Well, wowbagger, unfortunately this doesn't seem to have worked out. I hope you got enough out of it to make it worth your while.
 
The question is not, and never has been, "How did this incredibly unlikely genetic code come to be." It is not unlikely; it is instead inevitable. Obvious. Expected. Once, that is, one knows the laws of physics and complexity that govern chemistry. The question at hand is rather, "Of all the possible choices, why did evolution on Earth settle on the particular genetic code it did?
Do you find the rise of memes to be as pre-ordained as terran life?

Are you going with Strong Anthropic Principle? Or does your entire argument actually require the prior abiogenesis of "terran life"?
 
The question is not, and never has been, "How did this incredibly unlikely genetic code come to be." It is not unlikely; it is instead inevitable. Obvious. Expected. Once, that is, one knows the laws of physics and complexity that govern chemistry. The question at hand is rather, "Of all the possible choices, why did evolution on Earth settle on the particular genetic code it did?"
Do you find the rise of memes to be as pre-ordained as terran life?

Are you going with Strong Anthropic Principle? Or does your entire argument actually require the prior abiogenesis of "terran life"?
I know these questions were posed to Schneibster. But, I'll give my take on them, as well.

I would say that memes are almost just as "inevitable" as life arising on Earth. Selection pressure drove a certain species to develop a malleable brain, in order to survive ever-changing factors in their challenging environment. And that, when such malleable brains have arisen, it is inevitable they will be hijacked by memes.

I don't think Schneibster was alluding to any Anthropic Principals, strong or weak, as there is hardly any science in either one (well, perhaps a little in the weak version, maybe). If you care to read what Schneibster wrote just after you quoted him, I think he makes it clear:

And the answers to that increasingly appear to have to do with robust replication, and robust correction of point mutations. It becomes increasingly obvious that the particular genetic code we use has also been subject to selection pressures. That it has itself evolved.

The components of life could have come about in any number of different ways. The particular way it did come out is merely a function of which competing possibility was the more "robust", in its particular environment, at the time.

Well, wowbagger, unfortunately this doesn't seem to have worked out. I hope you got enough out of it to make it worth your while.
I certainly got a lot out of this discussion.

I am disappointed John Hewitt is unable to recognize that there is more than one legitimate way of discussing scientific endeavors. I think his "my way or the highway" attitude puts him at risk of not being respected by other scientists in this field, even if some of his ideas could turn out to be right.
But, at least he kept us on our toes. I, for one, will miss the little twerp.
 
OK, hammy, if you want your meat ground too, I guess I'll accommodate you for once.

Do you find the rise of memes to be as pre-ordained as terran life?
It's not pre-ordained. It's inevitable. It's obvious you don't understand the difference.

Are you going with Strong Anthropic Principle?
Nope. Nor the weak one. Life is life. If the conditions are right, given enough time it will happen. It's an inevitable consequence of having the right chemicals at the place where the energy is flowing. You know, like having ammonia, water, methane, and CO2 inside the "life ring" around a star. Kinda like in our Solar System, here- which seems to be exactly the same, at least in those ways, as about ten billion more solar systems in our galaxy, and pretty much all galaxies for that matter. That would be a basically uncountable number, considering Hubble found 10,000 galaxies in a piece of sky the size of a grain of sand held at arm's length- and it wasn't a particularly special piece of sky, either.

It's my opinion that people like you cannot imagine just how big it is out there in the universe, or how incredibly, unimaginably, absolutely insignificant in both space and time your existence is. Or if you can, then it scares you so badly that you abandon reason and make up stories about how you're special and jebus loves you. But if you can't imagine how big it is, you're in good company; I sat last year, amazed, listening to an idiot complain we were "polluting space." I must have laughed for ten minutes, and every time I think of it, I at least chuckle. This guy can't imagine that space isn't someplace like, you know, maybe the Mojave Desert, or New York, or something. It's right over there, you know? And we're polluting it. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Makes one wanna pull the guy aside and sit him down and say, "Listen, dumbs**t..." Kinda like it makes me feel to talk to you, hammy.

Or does your entire argument actually require the prior abiogenesis of "terran life"?
No, it proposes a mechanism by which abiogenesis can occur. It requires that there be methane, ammonia, water, and CO2, and that there be enough energy flowing to cause amino acids to form. You know the Urey-Miller experiment you like to pretend either never happened, or doesn't mean anything? Like that. Only for a billion years. In the whole ocean.

You'll note that this process is PATENTED and that companies are MAKING MONEY USING IT. And it's probably the way life started, hammy. So don't tell ME it doesn't work like that; go tell the people buying the enzymes and saving peoples' lives with them. But be careful not to get too close, or threaten anyone, or they'll get the guys in the white suits to come and take you away again.
 

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