Did Bush watch plane hit the first tower ?

First off show some proof. Some pre 9-11 statements, something in fire department policy, something from the port authority.

You want proof?

How about: The structural steelwork of the WTC towers was clad/coated in order to protect it from the effects of fire.

Is that not proof enough?

Need more exposition?

If the steel wasn't vulnerable to fire, why did it require protection?

If the vulnerability of the steel to fire was not going to result in a collapse of the building, why bother with the protection?

So, what happens when that fireproofing is damaged or removed and the building is on fire? hmmmmmmm?
 
I think we are close to wrapping this up ( though I will post a final recapitulation in response to Arch's from a couple of days ago, but I do want to go into one of the points made yesterday.

So you're not going to bother providing detailed explanations of what you think happened along with evidence? I didn't think so, thanks.
 
Architect if you think there are questions that relate directly to the questuon at hand please priortize them in such a manner.

It's done above. The two posts where I explain the collapse mechanism fairly lengthily, then the one where I picked up all your previous unsubstantiated claims about structural aspects of the WTC.

I am not interested in explaining my personal background, or the the format of the state and college systems here in CA (you can have that much). I was taught to examine the nature and facts presented on their own merits first.

But that's not what you've done. You've made wild, vague assertions and categorically failed to provide any evidence in relevant fields such as structural or fire engineering. You seem to thank that the fact Bush is a scary clown is enough to show he did 911, all under some sort of flimsy "philosophical" pretext.

That being the idea that everyone was in agreement that any large explosions or fires would bring down the towers. First off show some proof. Some pre 9-11 statements, something in fire department policy, something from the port authority.

You have it. My previous posts gave you evidence, significantly predating 9/11, that the susceptibility of steel framed buildings to fire was known and understood.

This is why WTC had been fireproofed. What no-one expected was an aircraft impact which would add an explosion and removal of fireproofing from the equation.

To try and claim that use of steel in framed structures is negligent because it fails is lunacy; after all your house probably has a timber floor and roof structure, as do about 90% of properties in the UK.

So I am not sure if you have looked at the thread on whether or not the towers were built to withstand airliners crashing into the building, but if so why did Demartini's and Skillings statements go unchallenged?

Yeah, I've answered that in the various previous posts too. You are reading things, aren't you?


Face it, NB: You lost. You failed to come back to us with any substantive response(s) to the technical issues raised and, when backed into a corner, have launched into the vague and woolly characteristics which so characterise the 911 Truth Movemement.
 
Face it, NB: You lost. You failed to come back to us with any substantive response(s) to the technical issues raised and, when backed into a corner, have launched into the vague and woolly characteristics which so characterise the 911 Truth Movemement.

Someone hasn't properly aligned their meta-paradigms in order to provide a proper transient framework for knowledge learning. :)
 
Or, maybe........the steel fire protection lobby are in on the plot too?
 
So I am not sure if you have looked at the thread on whether or not the towers were built to withstand airliners crashing into the building, but if so why did Demartini's and Skillings statements go unchallenged? If it was common knowledge that the buildings would come down, why were theses statements (in 93, and 2000) allowed to stand ?

Why did De Martini request for a construction inspector?

Around 9:15, Drohan heard De Martini over the walkie-talkie.
"Any construction inspector at ground level."
Drohan acknowledged that he was on the street.
"Can you escort a couple of structural inspectors to the 78th floor?" De martini asked.
De Martini had seen something in the steel-Drohan was not sure what-that he did not like. The drywall had been knocked off parts of the sky lobby, exposing the elevator shafts, and revealing the core of the building. That had prompted his first radio alert, warning that the elevators might collapse. Now De Martini wanted inspectors from a structural engineering firm to come up to the 78th-floor sky lobby and take a look.

102 Minutes, page 147
 
An engineer from the Department of Buildings reported that the structural damage appeared to be immense. The stability of both buildings was compromised. In particular, the engineer was worried about how long the north tower would stand.
Page 203
“102 Minutes”, Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn

This seems pretty clear to me: someone from Building Control turned up and said "it's gonna fall down".

Not exactly a complete surprise, eh?
 
That being the idea that everyone was in agreement that any large explosions or fires would bring down the towers. First off show some proof.
Maybe you're not aware of this, but the burden of proof rests solely on you. The official version has been endorsed by a wide variety of experts and the results published publically. No serious challenges have been made. If you think you have a serious challenge, it's up to you to put forward your evidence.
 
If you think you have a serious challenge, it's up to you to put forward your evidence.

Alternatively, he could simply go on about unrelated things and we can proceed to derail the hell out of this thread.

I'd rather go for the evidence thing, but that's probably not going to happen.
 
Why did De Martini request for a construction inspector?

Around 9:15, Drohan heard De Martini over the walkie-talkie.
"Any construction inspector at ground level."
Drohan acknowledged that he was on the street.
"Can you escort a couple of structural inspectors to the 78th floor?" De martini asked.
De Martini had seen something in the steel-Drohan was not sure what-that he did not like. The drywall had been knocked off parts of the sky lobby, exposing the elevator shafts, and revealing the core of the building. That had prompted his first radio alert, warning that the elevators might collapse. Now De Martini wanted inspectors from a structural engineering firm to come up to the 78th-floor sky lobby and take a look


102 Minutes, page 147

We too often forget that real people were involved in these events. Reading something like this, you can only imagine how he must have felt upon realizing how badly he had analysed the situation.

"Kicking yourself" doesn't even begin to cover it.
 
Alternatively, he could simply go on about unrelated things and we can proceed to derail the hell out of this thread.

I'd rather go for the evidence thing, but that's probably not going to happen.

Considering the title of this thread is, "Did Bush watch plane hit the first tower ?" (unnecessary space and all), I think we're well into derailing it by this point.

Cat Pictures, anyone?
 
Cat Pictures, anyone?

Let's give him a little more time. He might... pfff... might... heehee... he might post some evidence... hahahaha.

I'm sorry, I can't say that with a straight face. Got anything super-cute?
 
Let's give him a little more time. He might... pfff... might... heehee... he might post some evidence... hahahaha.

I'm sorry, I can't say that with a straight face. Got anything super-cute?

I don't know about super cute, but how's this?

94904582882997d98.jpg


"I'm gonna get that feather!"

94904595b727c388e.jpg



"What? I meant to do that!"
 
I was taught to examine the nature and facts presented on their own merits first,

But obviously, something went horribly wrong. Care to share with us?

, and the background of the person making the arguments quite a ways down the road from tere.. But for you folks the roles are reversed. Heck, I would be lucky if you ever hears my arguments.

I hears them quite well, they just don't make a lot of sense to me, that's all.

I think we are close to wrapping this up ( though I will post a final recapitulation

No need for a recap. We already know your ideas make no sense.

but I do want to go into one of the points made yesterday. That being the idea that everyone was in agreement that any large explosions or fires would bring down the towers.

Actually, everyone is in agreement that the PARTICULAR high-speed impacts and fires DID bring down the towers. Many people were surprised, but no one felt (in retrospect) that it was impossible.

First off show some proof. Some pre 9-11 statements, something in fire department policy, something from the port authority. Anything?

You want evidence that someone PRE-9/11 could tell the future? Is this really necessary?

Oh, let me guess, it was so commonly understood that no one felt the need to say anything about it.

Wrong. Try again! This time, engage your cognitive module.

Maybe it was kept quiet so the terrorists woulddn't get wind of it. Man it must have been a lot closer than we were told in the 93 attack.

Or maybe you either totally misunderstand or are totally misrepresenting the issue. Given your twin liabilities of ignorance and intellectual dishonesty, it's hard to tell which is the case.

So I am not sure if you have looked at the thread on whether or not the towers were built to withstand airliners crashing into the building, but if so why did Demartini's and Skillings statements go unchallenged? If it was common knowledge that the buildings would come down, why were theses statements (in 93, and 2000) allowed to stand ?

That's quite an elaborate straw man you've constructed there.

What exactly do you mean by their statements being "allowed to stand"? Do you think they should be erased from every publication that quoted them? Do you think a tribunal should be convened in which an elaborate ceremony is performed to somehow excommunicate these statements? Why is this necessary, instead of what actually happened: Experts looked at the statements and said, "Huh, I guess they were wrong."

It's been known to happen.
 
NB,

Just to remind you about the points put to you and on which we're still awaiting some sort of detailed response on:

This is quite simple, and I don't see why you have difficulty with it (barring the fact that you clearly have no experience whatsoever of structural design).

1. Buildings are designed to accommodate dead (i.e. self weight) and live (people, furniture, wind, etc) loadings. These design values are then subject to safety factors based on credible risks, set out in various design codes and standards.

2. Design of framed buildings such as the tower is complex; I do not intend to discuss in any depth the various jointing and connection techniques however a joint - welded or bolted - will only be designed to take specific loadings. These loadings will be for specific directions.

3. Lest anyone doubt how complex this all is, then remember the case of the Citicorp building. If you have no idea about Citicorp without having to Google, then do not trouble this board with any claims of structural expertise.

4. It may be helpful if you consider the complete tower structure - floors, inner core, and outer facade - as acting together as a large girder, or space frame (you must be familiar with both of these). Damage to or loss of one element can and will have an effect on the overall stability of the "girder".

5. The towers were built with spare structural capacity, however a significant part of this was compromised in the initial impact. Further damage was cause dby the fires. Although the designers claim that the design was built to accommodate an aircraft impact, no calculations have ever been produced to show the extent of this (I refer you again to Citicorp); there were (a) no applicable design codes or guidance at the time and (b) limited computer modelling techniques available at the time.

6. The fire weakened the floor trusses, causing sag. This in turn led to deflection of the outer structural envelope (or facade). The steel could not accommodate the required loadings at this point (a buckled structural member will be weaker, even before we consider the impact of buckling on joints and risk of their failure). The hat trusses probably served to redistribute loads, but ultimately exceeded design capacity and failed.

7. At this point, failure of the supporting structure for the upper part of the building is inevitable and what is frankly a massive amount of material begins to move downwards at a 9.8ms/-2. The momentum and mass are substantial.

8. The structure below is not intact, because the hat trusses are no longer doing their work and the bracing effect of the upper structure has been lost. It is overly simplistic to suggest that this portion of the building is sound, a point usually overlooked by "alternative" theories.

9. The steel joints, etc. are not designed to accommodate the loadings imposed by the impact of this massive mass and momentum. They are deisgned to accommodate normal loadings, which will be many magnitudes less. They will fail; there is absolutely no doubt about this, from a structural perspective. The time involved with be absolutely minimal. Although not a NIST document, Greening's paper (again you should be familiar with this) gives you a very basic idea of the kind of issues we're talking about.

10. At this point the collapse becomes progressive and self-perpetuating.

Let me give you a simple analogy (not my own, I hasten to add, but a rather a very good, simple way of looking at the problem posted elsewhere).

If you put a brick on your head, there will be no problems. You will be able to walk around (subject to balance), suffer no injuries, and so on. The additional dead lead of the brick (together with minimal live load for wind, etc. on it's faces) is well within the "design" load of your skeleton.

If we drop that brick from just 0.5 metres (far less than the floor-ceiling height of wtc) then you will suffer major head injuries. If we drop it 2.5 metres, you will suffer severe head and spinal injuries. Realistically, you will die.

Now as far as I can see, the ol' canard you're attempting to pull out of the hat is the one about the resistence of each floor sufficiently slowing down the collapse in order to markedly influence total collapse time.

I have to tell you that the sheer mass and momentum of the upper (mobile) structure is such that it's going to make bugger-all difference. We're talking about tiny fractions of a second each floor, not seconds.

This is what we, as trained professionals, would expect. Number crunching is irrelevant.

Now if you want to prove differently, don't demand that other people do your work for you. Go and find out how each joint was formed. Calculate the design loadings, then look at the imposed loadings from the collapse. Calculate the length of time to failure. THEN come back and tell us if there's an issue or not.

And this, I believe, is where YOU have a problem. You don't understand structures in any competent manner. Hell I work on tall structures every day of the working week and I have to get a team of real experts from Arup do the number crunching for me on a tall buildings project, so what hope has a lay person got?

Intead you try to claim that NIST have been remiss in not calculating something wholly irrelevant.

You cherry pick facts and soundbites, other (wholly irrelevant) cases such as Windsor. Tell me, NB, do you really know about the Citicorp Building without looking it up on Google? Have you ever heard of Ronan Point? How much do you understand about the actual performance of fires without going to Wiki?

Have you read the Sheffield University research papers? Were you even aware that Sheffield University (it's in the UK, btw)has a highly respected fire engineering unit?

Did you know that Edinburgh University (that's in the UK too) had published a paper suggesting through fire modelling that the trusses would have failed even withouth the aircraft impact? Likewise have you seen the Arup papers which seperately came to the same conclusion?

When considering the susceptibility of steel buildings to fire, were you aware that every single building standards/regulatory code in the West (and I suspect elsewhere) had identified the problem for at least 20 years (when I started training) and probably a lot longer? Were you aware that steel firms such as Corus publish extensive advice on this?

Do you know how we protect steel against fire? Are you aware of the different systems available and fire ratings? Hell, do you even know what intumescent means without looking it up on Google?

Have you looked at the various engineering media reports on the collapse (NCE would be a good start, but I suspect you've never heard of that either) in order to try and understand how we as an industry have viewed and understood the collapse.

I can go on all day with a list of architectural, structural, and fire engineering issues which you have to understand before you can even begin to comment on the NIST report with any degree of confidence. Each of these disciplines requires between 5 and 7 years of a university education, with intensive study across a whole range of specialist topics. This is then followed by practical, on-the-job training.

So with the deepest respect, don't read a few general web sites and then come back and start chucking about structural theories or "common sense".

Now rather than whittering on about philosophy and logic, can you start giving me an engineering explanation as to where you disagree with this?
 
NB,

Just to remind you about the points put to you and on which we're still awaiting some sort of detailed response on:



Now rather than whittering on about philosophy and logic, can you start giving me an engineering explanation as to where you disagree with this?
Also, please address the following while you are at it:
Do you disagree with the following methodology for inquiry

Quote:

Elements of the scientific method ( hypothetico-deductive):
  • Induction -- Forming a hypothesis by drawing general conclusions from existing data.
    Deduction -- Making specific predictions based on the hypothesis.
    Observation -- Gathering data, driven by hypothesis that tell us what to look for in nature.
    Verification -- Testing the predictions against further observations to confirm or falsify the initial hypothesis.
Through the scientific method, we may form the following generalizations:
  • Hypothesis -- A testable statement accounting for a set of observations.
    Theory -- A well-supported and well-tested hypothesis or set of hypotheses. Fact -- A conclusion confirmed to such an extent that it would be reasonable to offer provisional agreement.
<snip>
http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff..._method_2.html

If you disagree, please explain why.

If you do not disagree, please explain how your above post fits in to this methodology.
 
Am I alone in wondering if the silence from NB is some sort of confirmation of defeat on his part?
 

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