• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Why does God get angry?

Do you have some evidence that Christians in general (with the exception of Calvinists and others who believe in predestination- a significant but not overwhelming portion) believe that God predicts all human actions?

The ancient Greeks certainly believed that the gods knew the future, but is this idea given in Christianity?
 
Do you have some evidence that Christians in general (with the exception of Calvinists and others who believe in predestination- a significant but not overwhelming portion) believe that God predicts all human actions?

The ancient Greeks certainly believed that the gods knew the future, but is this idea given in Christianity?

Yes. There is a verse in the New Testament about how God has already chosen who will be in the Book of Life. There're a couple of verses in the Old Testament about predestination as well. I don't have time right now to search for them, but I will look them up later.

Marc
 
Actually, if you think about it, this emotion is sorta understandable. I think it's silly to prescribe human emotions to an omnipotent being anyway, but if you want to, then here's an analogy against this OP.

Imagine you're watching one of Randi's tests on dowsers (any of them, they all go the same way). Now, you can predict before the test starts that the dowser will fail, and then he will make up a lame excuse for why he did. You can't predict what will happen with absolute, omniscient certainty, but it's close enough that you aren't in the least surprised when it happens.

Now, are you still mad at the dowser for running from reality? Yes! It doesn't matter that you knew he would in advance- you're angry about the choice he made.

Imagine a situation in which you knew a murder was about to take place. Would your foreknowledge of this murder cause you not to get angry at the murderer? Of course not!

There's an old argument here about free will and predestination- you could say that it's God's fault that the murder occurred, so that he can't get angry about the criminal's actions. But that's just not true within the Christian framework of ideas- just because God knows the future doesn't mean he's responsible for it.

Remember that I'm just presenting a counter-argument to the OP and not arguing towards the existence of God.
 
There's an old argument here about free will and predestination- you could say that it's God's fault that the murder occurred, so that he can't get angry about the criminal's actions. But that's just not true within the Christian framework of ideas- just because God knows the future doesn't mean he's responsible for it.

The problem is that in the Christian worldview, God is both all powerful and all loving, as well as all knowing. Imagine you knew someone was about to kill someone you loved. Wouldn't you feel compelled to do something about it? If even you, being limited in powerful and ability to love would be willing to prevent a murder, shouldn't God, who is all powerful and all loving be willing to prevent one?

Marc
 
Imagine you're watching one of Randi's tests on dowsers (any of them, they all go the same way). Now, you can predict before the test starts that the dowser will fail, and then he will make up a lame excuse for why he did. You can't predict what will happen with absolute, omniscient certainty, but it's close enough that you aren't in the least surprised when it happens.

Now, are you still mad at the dowser for running from reality? Yes! It doesn't matter that you knew he would in advance- you're angry about the choice he made.
If we're mad at dowsers, it is only because some of them (not all of them) take money from desperate people, promising them aqua vitae. As Randi pointed out in Flim Flam, among all paranormal believers, dowsers seem to be the most innocuous. They usually aren't scam artists but genuinely and sadly deluded people. They are also fairly straightforward, in that they, more than any other believer group, are willing to take the challenge to test their "powers". That is not the mark of a fraud. That is the mark of a mistaken person. Even our own local dowsing expert, Edge is actually a sweet guy who is incapable of seeing the obvious in front of him. You just want to say, "Stop it and do something useful!" So it's hard to be mad at them unless they're taking advantage of others.

Imagine a situation in which you knew a murder was about to take place. Would your foreknowledge of this murder cause you not to get angry at the murderer? Of course not!
This does not describe the kind of knowledge God is said to have. He didn't one day discover the murder, too late to do anything about it. He knew about it from the dawn of creation and did nothing.

If I knew a reasonable time in advance that a murder was going to take place, I could at least try to stop it. I might even succeed. This is an important difference in omniscient foreknowledge and brief, uncertain foreknowledge.

There's an old argument here about free will and predestination- you could say that it's God's fault that the murder occurred, so that he can't get angry about the criminal's actions. But that's just not true within the Christian framework of ideas- just because God knows the future doesn't mean he's responsible for it.
It could mean exactly that it is God's fault, or it could mean that He is powerless to stop it. Such a concept turns God into just another pawn in the game. Most Christians wouldn't agree to that. Another possibility is that He knows it is going to happen, but He somehow agrees with it for reasons unknown and unknowable. This description of God turns Him into an amoral being since He doesn't share the same definition of "morality" that most humans have. Most Christians actually say something like this when they say, "We can't understand the mind of God".

But of course, if the future is known with 100% certainty, either by God or by any other entity, then the concept of free will is out the window. If you cannot do other than what is ordained by infallible knowledge of the future, then you have no choice or free will. You must do what is ordained.

Remember that I'm just presenting a counter-argument to the OP and not arguing towards the existence of God.
Understood. I'm countering your arguments here, knowing that you're playing "devil's advocate".
 
If even you, being limited in powerful and ability to love would be willing to prevent a murder, shouldn't God, who is all powerful and all loving be willing to prevent one?

Sixteen years of education at Catholic institutions have provided me the answer - it's a mystery.
 
This does not describe the kind of knowledge God is said to have. He didn't one day discover the murder, too late to do anything about it. He knew about it from the dawn of creation and did nothing.

More than that, God would have created the very concepts that come into play. He would have created time, life, death, free will, and so on. In every sense, he would have authored everything from the way the world works to the rules that govern existence to the guy commited that murder.

So when people say - you can't have free will without suffering, I always respond with 'why'? An all-powerful being with control over the very concepts that dictate reality could do so, but that's obviously not the world we're living in.

So God's either a hateful bastard, a hateful watchmaker, or a hateful figment of your imagination.
 
Last edited:
Do you have some evidence that Christians in general (with the exception of Calvinists and others who believe in predestination- a significant but not overwhelming portion) believe that God predicts all human actions?

The ancient Greeks certainly believed that the gods knew the future, but is this idea given in Christianity?

Islam teaches that not only does God know the future, he wrote it - there's no such thing as free will in Islam, only 100% predestination (and Allah still gets angry).
 
More than that, God would have created the very concepts that come into play. He would have created time, life, death, free will, and so on. In every sense, he would have authored everything from the way the world works to the rules that govern existence to the guy commited that murder.

So when people say - you can't have free will without suffering, I always respond with 'why'? An all-powerful being with control over the very concepts that dictate reality could do so, but that's obviously not the world we're living in.

So God's either a hateful bastard, a hateful watchmaker, or a hateful figment of your imagination.

Here's a quote-laden page of Mark Twain's Secret War with God. The OP is more or less gone over thoroughly. It's sadly too short, but anything by Twain is worth reading:

http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2001/may01/sloan.html
 
Well for the atheists I suppose the answer is a short, he doesn't because he's not real but, ignoring the obvious, and taking the stories at face value can anyone comprehend why God gets downright pissed off with people at times?
He's only pissed off at George W Bush at the moment for telling the world Iraq was his idea.
 
So when people say - you can't have free will without suffering, I always respond with 'why'? An all-powerful being with control over the very concepts that dictate reality could do so, but that's obviously not the world we're living in.

So God's either a hateful bastard, a hateful watchmaker, or a hateful figment of your imagination.
I don't think I'd care for an "alway happy" life simply because how would I know when I was happy? What would I have to judge it against? But undoubtedly, an all-powerful God that wanted us to be happy could make us happy. But the whole concept is absurd. It is going to trip over logical contradictions no matter which way you go.

But a life that has some happiness and some sadness, unequally distributed around the world, unequally distributed among morally good and morally bad people, unequally distributed among rich and poor people, that makes logical sense. Fairness has nothing to do with it.

What I find is the best way to make your life happy is to decide to be happy. Everybody knows inately that this is true. Some people are unhappy no matter how lucky they are, others are happy no matter how unlucky they are. It ain't fate. It ain't luck. It ain't God. It's you.

From my childhood, I remember talking to the janitor at my school. He had a really crappy, low-paying, no future job, but everytime I saw him, he was smiling and whistling. One time I saw him whistling as he wallowed in sewage from a busted toilet. I asked if he really liked that work he was doing. His answer has been my working credo since that day. "It ain't always doin' what you like. It's likin' what you do."
 
So God's either a hateful bastard, a hateful watchmaker, or a hateful figment of your imagination.

You have got a pretty distorted view of God senorpogo! It's because He loves us He gives us free will. But for any humanbeing to deny the one that created them is just plain foolishness.

I have said this on other threads but maybe it deserves to be said again. How would you feel if your child chose to rebel against you and love the things you hate?
 
I have said this on other threads but maybe it deserves to be said again. How would you feel if your child chose to rebel against you and love the things you hate?
That one is easy. I would love that child for the rest of my life. Until my last breath I would seek to redirect him or her. If I had eternity I would not give up.

That's what I would do.
 
That one is easy. I would love that child for the rest of my life. Until my last breath I would seek to redirect him or her. If I had eternity I would not give up.

That's what I would do.
I would hope that God would do no worse.
 
I have said this on other threads but maybe it deserves to be said again. How would you feel if your child chose to rebel against you and love the things you hate?
Hi Kathy! You must be the resident Christian nut. Glad to meet you.


Do you believe that God does unpleasant things because he got his feelings hurt? :rolleyes:

-Squish
 
I have said this on other threads but maybe it deserves to be said again. How would you feel if your child chose to rebel against you and love the things you hate?
I'd actually turn up in person, sit them down and have a long heart to heart with them. Try to find out what I did wrong to make them turn against me, apologise for any mistakes I may have made, promise to do my best not to repeat those mistakes. And then I would reassure them that whatever their choices in life my home would always be theirs.

What I certainly wouldn't do is never have any contact with them, get angry with them for doubting I even exist, and then lock them in the basement for the rest of their lives with cousin Lucifer, the convicted child molester.
 
You have got a pretty distorted view of God senorpogo! It's because He loves us He gives us free will. But for any humanbeing to deny the one that created them is just plain foolishness.
? This doesn't make sense. How do I accept that which I do not know? Should I accept Mithra? Ganesh? Pantheism? Vishnu? How can you say it is just plain "foolishness"? Why do people in different parts of the world believe in different gods? How come god can't make his message easier to understand what is right and what is wrong? I've read the Bible, the Koran and other sacred texts, it's not at all clear. Believers in all religions are confident they have the truth. How can that be?
 
That one is easy. I would love that child for the rest of my life. Until my last breath I would seek to redirect him or her. If I had eternity I would not give up.

That's what I would do.
I mostly agree with you. I might even punish them, but there is no wrong that they could do for which I would punish them for eternity.
 
I have said this on other threads but maybe it deserves to be said again. How would you feel if your child chose to rebel against you and love the things you hate?

Like RandFan said, I'd still love my child. If she chooses to become a nun, I'd still love her. One of the things my wife and I agree on when it comes to raising our daughter is that ultimately, it's her life. No matter how much I may wish she'd do one thing or another, my daughter is the one who has to live her own life, make her own decisions, and ultimately, do whatever it is that makes her happy.

Unless she decides to date a Marine. Then we may have problems....


Marc
 

Back
Top Bottom