Atheism is a faith.

You misunderstand. It's a disorganized movement, replete with its fanatical vanguard and blind followers.

M.
 
donq said:
Is it a coincidence that the biggest sin is doubt in both the Christian and Muslim religions? Am I the only one who finds believing in a system that requires faith (belief without evidence) scary in this context, because I am not just being asked to believe, I'm being asked not to think--to be afraid of my doubts (which are an expression of my ability to analyze critically)?
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Would you provide the evidence for this, at least with Xtianity, as that is something I know a little about. And what do you mean exactly by doubt?
 
donq said:
Is it a coincidence that the biggest sin is doubt in both the Christian and Muslim religions?
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That overstates the case somewhat. Heresy is the biggest sin, as it threatens the established order. Doubt has been classified as heresy at times, of course, so it is clearly frowned on. Not by wimply modern Anglicanism, but that's hardly Christian any more.

The centrality of Faith ("Faith, Hope and Charity, and the greatest of these is Faith") is down to it being such a useful device. Convince people that it's important - which you do by constant repetition and early indoctrination - and they're unlikely to question. They're also unlikely to listen to doubters. The sheer dottiness of religion can be presented as a challenge to Faith, an opportunity to better demonstrate one's primary virtue. In theory, the best thing you can do for a believer is actually prove the non-existence of their god. Theirs will be the strongest, most-tested Faith ever. Because they won't stop believing, of course. It's what they do.
 
CFLarsen said:
Again, you refer to this "organized skeptical movement".

Again, you refuse to tell us what that means.
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They're a splittist clique of renegades from The Official Skeptical Movement, which I have the honour of leading.


Moochie said:
You misunderstand. It's a disorganized movement, replete with its fanatical vanguard and blind followers.

M.
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And they're all following me! It's one hell of a buzz. I can really appreciate what that David Koresh character was about. "To the Credible and Beyond!", that's our slogan.
 
CapelDodger said:
In theory, the best thing you can do for a believer is actually prove the non-existence of their god. Theirs will be the strongest, most-tested Faith ever. Because they won't stop believing, of course. It's what they do.
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I agree with that wholeheartedly.

I'd be interested to know what approach you do use. I stick to a combination of ridicule, denigration and blarney - I found early on that trying to argue sense with christians is akin to trying to put out a bushfire by pissing on it.
 
The Atheist said:
I'd be interested to know what approach you do use. I stick to a combination of ridicule, denigration and blarney - I found early on that trying to argue sense with christians is akin to trying to put out a bushfire by pissing on it.
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I don't generally try to prove atheism to believers, not even as an exercise in sophistry (or "stunt-logic" as we used to call it back in the day). I just bat things back, with a little extra push, when some believer tries coming it with me. I favour the frequent use of "subjective" and "objective", that unsettles a lot of them. Not clerics, of course, but none of the rabbis and priests I've conversed with have ever tried to convert me. (Not mainstream ones, anyway, and the more self-appointed types are easy meat.) So I haven't tried to convert them. I make it known, subtly of course, that I'm an atheist, I just don't make an issue of it. I've had excellent discussions with clerics about history, politics, food, mutual acquaintances, stuff like that. Religion, when it comes to mutual disdain of ignorant zealots.

So I'm by default passive rather than active. I don't start threads such as "Atheism is not a faith". (I rarely start threads at all, I glom onto other people's.) But I'm easily roused :mad: .

There was this rather irritating guy, someone's acquaintance, who revealed that he was in traning for the Catholic priesthood and I came out with "What, the whole schtick, collar and frock and child-abuse?", utterly gratuitous but I was in my cups and merry. I wonder if he remembers me? I don't suppose so. I still cringe at the memory - and all to get a laugh (which it did, I mix with other bad people like me :o ).
 
CapelDodger said:
I don't generally try to prove atheism to believers, not even as an exercise in sophistry (or "stunt-logic" as we used to call it back in the day). I just bat things back, with a little extra push, when some believer tries coming it with me. I favour the frequent use of "subjective" and "objective", that unsettles a lot of them. Not clerics, of course, but none of the rabbis and priests I've conversed with have ever tried to convert me. (Not mainstream ones, anyway, and the more self-appointed types are easy meat.) So I haven't tried to convert them. I make it known, subtly of course, that I'm an atheist, I just don't make an issue of it. I've had excellent discussions with clerics about history, politics, food, mutual acquaintances, stuff like that. Religion, when it comes to mutual disdain of ignorant zealots.

So I'm by default passive rather than active. I don't start threads such as "Atheism is not a faith". (I rarely start threads at all, I glom onto other people's.) But I'm easily roused :mad: .

There was this rather irritating guy, someone's acquaintance, who revealed that he was in traning for the Catholic priesthood and I came out with "What, the whole schtick, collar and frock and child-abuse?", utterly gratuitous but I was in my cups and merry. I wonder if he remembers me? I don't suppose so. I still cringe at the memory - and all to get a laugh (which it did, I mix with other bad people like me :o ).
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Cheers, thanks for that. I have some great non-theological discussions with a couple of older clergy, but any young, fundamental preacher, I just dismiss. Been there, done that.
 
RandFan said:
....Why should I doubt it? My faith was much stronger than most. I did not question for one moment my decision. I had a 1967 Chevrolet Camaro that I personally restored. It was the love of my life. I purchased it when I was 15. Stripped it down to bare metal. Removed the engine and frame and completely rebuilt it. It was beautiful. When it was time for me to prepare for my mission I put it up for sale. I took every dime I had saved and spent it on the mission.

I know what it is like to believe. I was more than prepared to give my life to God. That is the honest truth.

So, yeah, I have a pretty good idea what your mindset is.
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Apparently not.

I don't need to tell myself anything, I lived it. No, not your life. I can't know what it is to be you. I can know what it is like to believe so strongly that it would mean just about everything to you.

What's it like for you?
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Peaceful.
 
CapelDodger said:
....The centrality of Faith ("Faith, Hope and Charity, and the greatest of these is Faith") is down to it being such a useful device. Convince people that it's important - which you do by constant repetition and early indoctrination - and they're unlikely to question. They're also unlikely to listen to doubters. The sheer dottiness of religion can be presented as a challenge to Faith, an opportunity to better demonstrate one's primary virtue. In theory, the best thing you can do for a believer is actually prove the non-existence of their god. Theirs will be the strongest, most-tested Faith ever. Because they won't stop believing, of course. It's what they do.
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Your premise is based on an incorrect foundation.

1 Corinthians, Chapter 13 (in it's entirety):

If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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The Atheist said:
Originally Posted by CapelDodger
In theory, the best thing you can do for a believer is actually prove the non-existence of their god. Theirs will be the strongest, most-tested Faith ever. Because they won't stop believing, of course. It's what they do.
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I agree with that wholeheartedly.

I'd be interested to know what approach you do use. I stick to a combination of ridicule, denigration and blarney - I found early on that trying to argue sense with christians is akin to trying to put out a bushfire by pissing on it.
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And I appreciate the glory you bring to folks like myself:

Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
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The Atheist said:
I save the worst stuff for atheists...
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You keep saying this but don't explain why? What about atheists do you have a problem with? I can find little or no reason for what you do. You're like the guy who talks in a movie or the bully who picks fights just because he doesn't like fags (homosexuals). You don't seem to serve any purpose but to stroke your ego. I guess that's fine. Everyone has to have a purpose in life.

The A**hole song by Denis Leary

But sometimes that just ain't enough
To keep a man like me interested
Oh no, no way, uh uhh
No, I gotta go out and have fun
At someone else's expense
Oh yeah, yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah

I drive really slow
In the ultra-fast lane
While people behind me are going insane

I use public toilets
And I piss on the seat
I walk around in the summer time sayin', "How about this heat?"

Sometimes I park in the handicapped spaces
While handicapped people
Make handicapped faces
 
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RandFan said:
To what end?
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Here you go - you've actually asked me a valid question, so I'll answer it for you.

No end at all, apart from pointing out the absurdity of religion. I take the piss out of christians because most of them can't handle it. Case in point, we've applied to hold a pavement chalk drawing contest featuring biblical scenes. Despite a pathetically moronic six-page application, we'll have approval for that for next week or the week after. The pavement drawings will be biblical alright, but the emphasis is on showing the more literal, less savoury aspects of the bible - you know - the babies in Sodom burning in their cribs, the lovely fairytale story of Noah, with again babies featuring as they slip under the waves for the final time. My boy is going to have a crack at the bears tearing up 42 kids - lts of red chalk on order. It's going to be outside Auckland Cathedral, so we're hoping for some comment.

I don't believe there is a "best approach" for attacking christianity, so I just attack it any way I can, but I try to be creative in doing so.
 
The Atheist said:
Here you go - you've actually asked me a valid question, so I'll answer it for you.

No end at all, apart from pointing out the absurdity of religion. I take the piss out of christians because most of them can't handle it. Case in point, we've applied to hold a pavement chalk drawing contest featuring biblical scenes. Despite a pathetically moronic six-page application, we'll have approval for that for next week or the week after. The pavement drawings will be biblical alright, but the emphasis is on showing the more literal, less savoury aspects of the bible - you know - the babies in Sodom burning in their cribs, the lovely fairytale story of Noah, with again babies featuring as they slip under the waves for the final time. My boy is going to have a crack at the bears tearing up 42 kids - lts of red chalk on order. It's going to be outside Auckland Cathedral, so we're hoping for some comment.

I don't believe there is a "best approach" for attacking christianity, so I just attack it any way I can, but I try to be creative in doing so.
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And piss off as many people as you can in the process?

So, to answer the question "to what end"? Just to piss people off?
 
RandFan said:
You keep saying this but don't explain why? What about atheists do you have a problem with? I can find little or no reason for what you do. You're like the guy who talks in a movie or the bully who picks fights just because just because he doesn't like fags. You don't seem to serve any purpose but to stroke your ego. I guess that's fine. Everyone has to have a purpose in life.

But sometimes that just ain't enough
To keep a man like me interested
Oh no, no way, uh uhh
No, I gotta go out and have fun
At someone else's expense
Oh yeah, yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah

I drive really slow
In the ultra-fast lane
While people behind me are going insane

I use public toilets
And I piss on the seat
I walk around in the summer time sayin', "How about this heat?"

Sometimes I park in the handicapped spaces
While handicapped people
Make handicapped faces
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My kids do the chorus to this - you should see them - 4 and 7 years old, screaming out, AYE, ESS ESS, AITCH OH, ELL EEE!

Love the guy! Finally you quote someone I relate to, well done!

Just for the record, I'm not the guy who talks during a movie; I'm the guy who leans over and says very loudly, "Shut the #### up!" (LMAO! I'm so used to that expression that I typed it in and had to go back and edit it out.) to the guy who is talking at the movies. I'm also the guy who stands and waits while people drive out of handicapped spaces after I've just suggested they ought to. Believe it if you like, I know who I am and whether or not you do bothers me exactly 0.00000%.
 
RandFan said:
So, to answer the question "to what end"? Just to piss people off?
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No, that's just a lucky side-effect. The purpose is two-fold: (three if you count the pissing-off)

To point out that the bible is not just a bunch of fairy stories, but a collection of horrific tales, mostly instigated by a god-thing. We have little kids at school colouring in pictures of Noah in class - benevolent old animal-lover that he was. Well, I'm sure you know that if Noah had actually happened, then apparently, every kid on the planet who didn't have Noah as a dad got drowned. I like to point out the alternative side of some of the nice "just-so" stories in the bible.

To gain media attention to let everyone know that there are people around who are prepared to put time and effort into attacking christianity. Hopefully that will beg the question, "why" for which there's a very long list of answers.
 
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