I have applied for the challenge

Peter Morris said:
Actually, it has everything to do with James Randi talking through his hat.

Randi issued the challenge to "prove me wrong and win a million dollars."

Proving him wrong, ie talking through his hat, is what it's all about.
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So it is all about semantics, and your uncontrollable hatred of and obsession with James Randi. You have officially started to bore me. I won't look at this thread agin until such time as the JREF accepts Mr. Morris' claim.
 
drkitten said:
I believe they do, and have in the past. The most famous one is a person who claimed the "ability" to look at a record and to determine what song was on it. Could do it, too. But even the person with that ability did not consider his ability to be paranormal; he just regarded it as the result of training and experience.

I vaguely remember another one where a person had the "paranormal ability" to make the fish in her aquarium move to the other side when she put her hand next to the tank. As Randi put it "she calls it 'paranormal,' I call it 'frightened fish.'"
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And, ISTR, that, when suggestion was made to the lady that she put a piece of cardboard between herself and the fishtank, the effect went away. :shocked:
 
Peter Morris said:
Number one is what I'm claiming. However, the whole point is to expose people talking through their hats. If Randi is talking through his hat - and I contend that he is - then every good sceptic should wish to see him made to prove HIS false claims.
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Why would we wish to see this? Randi is not a geologist, or any other kind of scientist, and has never claimed to be. No-one, except apparently you, expects him to get everything right all the time. In fact if he did, it could almost be considered... paranormal. Even if it turns out Randi was completely wrong on this matter, there is nothing paranormal about not knowing detailed geology, either for Randi or the dowsers. There is nothing paranormal about water being underground. What is paranormal is claiming to find it using a magic stick.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
And, ISTR, that, when suggestion was made to the lady that she put a piece of cardboard between herself and the fishtank, the effect went away. :shocked:
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"It's unbelievable! My magical powers can be blocked by ordinary cardboard!"

Apparently we read the same trash....
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
If I remember correctly, Randi has said that someone who could show that water flows in streams and rivers underground would be eligible. The reason is, geologists have been dropping cores and digging holes all over the world and never come across an underground river (excluding caves with rivers).
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I would like to know if that is a true statement. The "Randi said..' part
Obviously it is not a true statement, in regards to the content, "geologists have been dropping cores and digging holes all over the world and never come across an underground river".

Silly Green Monkey said:
Underground rivers such as dowsers claim would make even something so small as building a house an incredibly risky endeavor.
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Ignoring the "dowsers claim" part, there is indeed risk in building any structure in an area with underground streams and rivers. Entire city blocks have been swallowed up, as well as interstates closed, due to sinkholes from underground river erosion. It is considered a fact of life in some areas, especially central Florida.


Silly Green Monkey said:
Water does flow underground, it's called the 'water table'. The water is not limited to streams, it spreads out throughout the ground.
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That is sort of a fallacy. Where there is a water table, the water doesn't flow like a stream or river. It forms a lens of water. Where the geology is such it can't do that, it forms streams and rivers, that do flow.

Sometimes it is a mixed situation.

While I figured it would be ignored, the Devils Millhopper north of Gainesville FL is an obvious and easy to observe example of an underground stream. Anyone who visits can see a stream come out of the ground, flow down the side of the sinkhole, and go back underground. This had been observed in many parts of the world, entire rivers do this as well.
 
Off topic

webfusion said:
Going back to Florida ---
http://www.floridaplants.com/news/scientists.htm

The geological researchers had a theory.
"Best scientific guess" and "just sorts of bits and pieces"
about some sort of underground river.

That was in 1996. What happened?
Anyone?
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Best I could find, the research found fault with the sugar industry in the everglades. This led to a familiar ending. Researcher loses grants, loses labs, loses position, loses credibility, story is killed, nothing happened, move along here, nothing to see.
 
Oy! This has been a long thread.
I once stated that I predicted that I, personally, would not win the MDC on such-and-such-a-date, and, to date, I still haven't.
Is that a prize-worthy claim? Is it a "paranormal" claim? Did I do all the necessary paper-work to justify my idiotic claim?
Even tho' I'm certain I can prove it (I can research the Forum Archives, and I can prove that my financial conditions hadn't significantly improved after I made my claim) I'm still out an easy $1,000,000.
I know it's not a very rational argument, but it seems as valid as the argument posted in the OP.







P.S. I'm still waiting on my check...
:D
 
 
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As much as I like the JREF and Randi's mission to discredit all the scam artists and charlatans in the world, I find this issue, and this board's hangups about it, to be very, very strange.

In the first place, I have a master's degree in Physical Geography. I worked as a scientist for years in one of the most cavernous areas of North America, the corner of Tennessee, Alabama, and Georgia (also known as TAG.) I still go there for caving at least twice a month.

Argumentatively, Randi certainly has a leg to stand on, because he specifically discounted caves from his list of "underground rivers." I just think it was a damned weaselly thing for him to do. Essentially, he said that "no underground rivers exist, except in places where they do, in fact, exist (defined as a large underground conduit that carries water), and those don't count," defining any "large underground conduit that carries water" as a cave, and therefore excluding them from the argument, so NYAH NYAH NYAH.

Yes, underground rivers exist. Wekiwa Springs, in Orange County, Florida, has a flow of 62.6 cubic feet per second. That's over 40 million gallons per day. That's quite enough to qualify for the term "river." Hell, there are surface streams in the West that people call "rivers" that don't have that much flow. I've swam through underground rivers. I have PHOTOS of underground rivers. I've done years' worth of work in underground rivers. That they exist is absolutely undeniable.

Now, I know that this won't qualify for the MDC, but this seems to be a case of the JREF forums folks defending Randi's every word and utterance. What should happen here is that Randi should say, "OK, I screwed up. There are, in fact, underground rivers. I meant that dowsers' conception of groundwater hydrology is deeply flawed, and not based on any scientific understanding, but rather some pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo. What I mean to test is a paranormal claim to be able to 'sense water' underground, or to be able to demonstrate the presence and location of 'underground rivers' by use of a paranormal method."

And no, Peter, you're never going to see your million bux. Nor should you, because you're trying to exploit a nonexistent loophole in the MDC. The idea is not to catch Randi in an ill-advised linguistic slip, but to prove that the paranormal exists.

That doesn't mean, however, that Randi was not factually wrong in this instance.
 
New participant Samnite declares:
That doesn't mean, however, that Randi was not factually wrong in this instance.
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In this instance, Randi said that the British Isle of Jersey is not supplied by a "Vast Freshwater River" that flows deep under the English Channel from France.

See my post # 84 for a recap of the instance under discussion -- the case of George Langlois.

With all your years of expertise, are you here to tell us that Randi is factually wrong in this instance? That is the question we would like to hear you chime in with a reply to ----- not about springs underground in Florida.
 
webfusion said:
New participant Samnite declares:

In this instance, Randi said that the British Isle of Jersey is not supplied by a "Vast Freshwater River" that flows deep under the English Channel from France.

See ... for a recap of the instance under discussion -- the case of George Langlois.

With all your years of expertise, are you here to tell us that Randi is factually wrong in this instance? That is the question we would like to hear you chime in with a reply to ----- not about springs underground in Florida.
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Yeah, you're right. I went off half cocked. Langlois is clearly a clown.

(Christ, I hate this "no posting URL's til 15 posts" thing.)
 
Well, there you have it Mr. Morris:

the unscientific claim that could be accepted for the MDC;
that there is "a "Vast Freshwater River" that flows deep under the English Channel from France."

Otherwise it will be successfully disputed that in the light of the sum of Mr. Randi's statements, he isn't asserting that water doesn't move in underground channels.
 
Samnite said:
As much as I like the JREF and Randi's mission to discredit all the scam artists and charlatans in the world, I find this issue, and this board's hangups about it, to be very, very strange.

In the first place, I have a master's degree in Physical Geography. I worked as a scientist for years in one of the most cavernous areas of North America, the corner of Tennessee, Alabama, and Georgia (also known as TAG.) I still go there for caving at least twice a month.

Argumentatively, Randi certainly has a leg to stand on, because he specifically discounted caves from his list of "underground rivers." I just think it was a damned weaselly thing for him to do. Essentially, he said that "no underground rivers exist, except in places where they do, in fact, exist (defined as a large underground conduit that carries water), and those don't count," defining any "large underground conduit that carries water" as a cave, and therefore excluding them from the argument, so NYAH NYAH NYAH.

Yes, underground rivers exist. Wekiwa Springs, in Orange County, Florida, has a flow of 62.6 cubic feet per second. That's over 40 million gallons per day. That's quite enough to qualify for the term "river." Hell, there are surface streams in the West that people call "rivers" that don't have that much flow. I've swam through underground rivers. I have PHOTOS of underground rivers. I've done years' worth of work in underground rivers. That they exist is absolutely undeniable.

Now, I know that this won't qualify for the MDC, but this seems to be a case of the JREF forums folks defending Randi's every word and utterance. What should happen here is that Randi should say, "OK, I screwed up. There are, in fact, underground rivers. I meant that dowsers' conception of groundwater hydrology is deeply flawed, and not based on any scientific understanding, but rather some pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo. What I mean to test is a paranormal claim to be able to 'sense water' underground, or to be able to demonstrate the presence and location of 'underground rivers' by use of a paranormal method."

And no, Peter, you're never going to see your million bux. Nor should you, because you're trying to exploit a nonexistent loophole in the MDC. The idea is not to catch Randi in an ill-advised linguistic slip, but to prove that the paranormal exists.

That doesn't mean, however, that Randi was not factually wrong in this instance.
Click to expand...
Mate, I haven't been here for a long time to be able to say for sure, but that must be the best first post ever made. If there's been a better first post in the history of JREF, please point me to it, I'd love to read it.

Nominated.

A picture of clarity and common-sense, and bloody well written!

<<standing ovation>> Thread closed.
 
The Atheist said:
Mate, I haven't been here for a long time to be able to say for sure, but that must be the best first post ever made. If there's been a better first post in the history of JREF, please point me to it, I'd love to read it.

Nominated.

A picture of clarity and common-sense, and bloody well written!

<<standing ovation>> Thread closed.
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I appreciate the vote of confidence. Too bad it was a misfire, eh?
 
wow

Samnite said:
As much as I like the JREF and Randi's mission to discredit all the scam artists and charlatans in the world, I find this issue, and this board's hangups about it, to be very, very strange.
Click to expand...

Hello Samnite! I have to agree. As should be obvious from my many comments here. I truly thought it was jesting when people claimed there were no underground flows of water. :wackylaugh: Underground water flow had never been found!:wackylaugh:

But before I drift yet again in this topic, see this for more underground water madness.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2061770#post2061770

And welcome to the nuthouse. Have fun.
 
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